Maremmas In Show.

[Steve]

I imagine if left to go feral they would be highly intelligent and not easily caught.

If they dont know who their master is and they dont know what they are guarding and where their boundary is -they will guard the whole shire .Its why when they go to new homes they need to be bonded with that situation and know their boundaries.-

Which by the way is far more important than leash training or anything else you ordinarily do with another breed when you bring it home.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Steve

[Steve]

Tralee surely Im misunderstanding you - how can you say that a Maremma cant be a domestic pet ?

Edited April 9, 2013 by Steve

[Steve]

[Are You Serious Jo]

Tralee's dogs are domestic pets, they live in the burbs and don't work so I am also confused about what he is trying to say. I think they can be pets if allowances are made for their traits, plenty do it.

[Steve]

This is a good read.

http://www.houseabruzzo.com/abruzzo-articles/abruzzo-sheep-universe.asp

[Tralee]

Tralee surely Im misunderstanding you - how can you say that a Maremma cant be a domestic pet ?

Yes, most certainly, some dogs make excellent 'pets' but the Maremma is not a pet it is a 'working dog.'

Sooki was in every sense of the word a thoroughly dependable domestic pet but her temperament was on the far end of the bell curve.

She was therapy dog standard and was invited to primary schools and nursing homes.

But I am not going to generalise the temperament of one dog to every other Maremma bred.

That would just be foolhardy.

Sooki's breeder had two domestic pet Maremmas and when I visited her, her big dog was very house bound.

But there was no way in the world I was going to be allowed to get up off the couch and approach her sitting across from me in an arm chair.

The other dog (a bitch) attacked her new young breeding bitch so viciously it was lucky not to have been put down.

Her daughter was astute enough not to get involved but many other households are not so Maremma savvy.

When I visited Winja's breeders who had a larger number of dogs I was not allowed to go anywhere unaccompanied.

Now these examples show that the Maremma is not a house pet animal.

I've raised my dogs to be well mannered and cooperative but they still make their own decisions and determinations as far as threats go.

We've been in town and on property about 50-50 of the time over the last 8-9 years in which I have kept Maremma.

From this experience, my analysis of the breed can only result in the conclusion that the Maremma character is challenging, unique and deserves respect.

In the majority of cases, the Maremma is a working dog and should not be considered as a suitable pet for a child, dog novice, or your common everyday 'egit'.

Responsible dog ownership and ethical breeding requires no less.

Underplaying the potential of the dog to inflict injury in order to promote the dogs as affable and gregarious is simply irresponsible.

Also, dvocacy and promotion of the Maremma is one thing, but breeding the dogs off their temperament is something else all together.

Now I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here.

I'm simply participating in a dialogue which will further our understanding.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Tralee

[Are You Serious Jo]

But your dogs are house pet animals

[Steve]

Well Tralee with all due respect I think you are way off course.

22 years ago when I first started out with the breed I heard all manner of stories about them and I was determined to test them in a multitude of situations before I ever went anywhere near breeding one.

For anyone to tell me they are not good with children, not good as a domestic pet etc is incredible and I could take up pages and pages of examples to demonstrate why I believe you are very much mistaken in your judgement.

[Tralee]

What you say about Maremmas not being a companion dog is just utter tripe.

They are historically a shepherdesses dog and were corralled at night with their humans.

They've always had human contact.

The idea that they can be abandoned on some endless sheep farm and fed with a hopper is an abuse, particular to Australia. But no surprises there.

I don't know why you don't concede that you are talking through your hat.

There is no disgrace is saying you don't know or conceding that you can in fact learn something from others.

Here is the passage where you clearly state the case.

Well I doubt that steve or I would use the term companion animal when applied to Maremmas in the sense that it is understood in the pet market.

The Maremma is an associative dog, if you have had one or more you would know that.

The sense in which companion is used as it relates to Maremmas is as a companion and guard dog

This is the value of the dogs steve mentions she has homed with autistic and elderly.

My point about the habits of the sheperdesses should not obfuscated unnecessarily.

Sheep are coralled, not dogs and humans, so the dogs were coralled at night with the sheep and their humans.

Maremmas are companion dogs but not a universally companionable dog.

To claim other wise would simply be irresponsible

[Tralee]

Well Tralee with all due respect I think you are way off course.

22 years ago when I first started out with the breed I heard all manner of stories about them and I was determined to test them in a multitude of situations before I ever went anywhere near breeding one.

For anyone to tell me they are not good with children, not good as a domestic pet etc is incredible and I could take up pages and pages of examples to demonstrate why I believe you are very much mistaken in your judgement.

Sure, but I am not going to labour on about how they treat visitors just so others can say: "There I told you so, Maremma have poor temperament"

There are others too keen to berate one breeders dogs against anothers, and I experienced it firsthand before I had bred any dogs of my own.

The same breeder advised the owner of a potential sire not to allow her dog over one of my bitches because "their temperaments were off"

I mean, I don't spit judgement over any body's dogs, I am too busy sourcing dogs that meet my own progressive criteria.

Regards

Edited April 9, 2013 by Tralee

[mixeduppup]

Ammo musn't have got the message that he can't be a domestic pet. Here he is playing fetch.

[Steve]

O.K But its still about what they see as normal and what they are accustomed to.You cant have a dog which isn't exposed to visitors very often and expect it to not be a bit iffy about visitors just as you cant expect a dog that isnt exposed to being handled by strangers off property with a leash on to accept it as a matter of course either.

[Tralee]

O.K But its still about what they see as normal and what they are accustomed to.You cant have a dog which isn't exposed to visitors very often and expect it to not be a bit iffy about visitors just as you cant expect a dog that isnt exposed to being handled by strangers off property with a leash on to accept it as a matter of course either.

Well I am lucky to have two visitors a year.

And that is only Santa and the Easter bunny.

Even the meter readers won't visit. :D

[Are You Serious Jo]

What you say about Maremmas not being a companion dog is just utter tripe.

They are historically a shepherdesses dog and were corralled at night with their humans.

They've always had human contact.

The idea that they can be abandoned on some endless sheep farm and fed with a hopper is an abuse, particular to Australia. But no surprises there.

I don't know why you don't concede that you are talking through your hat.

There is no disgrace is saying you don't know or conceding that you can in fact learn something from others.

Here is the passage where you clearly state the case.

Well I doubt that steve or I would use the term companion animal when applied to Maremmas in the sense that it is understood in the pet market.

The Maremma is an associative dog, if you have had one or more you would know that.

The sense in which companion is used as it relates to Maremmas is as a companion and guard dog

This is the value of the dogs steve mentions she has homed with autistic and elderly.

My point about the habits of the sheperdesses should not obfuscated unnecessarily.

Sheep are coralled, not dogs and humans, so the dogs were coralled at night with the sheep and their humans.

Maremmas are companion dogs but not a universally companionable dog.

To claim other wise would simply be irresponsible

What's the difference between a companion dog and a house pet animal?

[Steve]

Ive got 16 grandkids coming and going ,a never ending parade of teenage boys and more recently lots more teenage girls and 4 employees - the gloves are off though for the meter reader and the service guys for the septic tanks. As long as I greet you and welcome you in all is well - bit scary though if you try to sneak in. the one which lives with the elderly lady has worked out if she puts her hand up to open the door it stands back and lets them in and lies in the room but if the person on the other side of the door attempts to put their hand on that door handle all hell breaks loose. Its about what is normal.

[Tralee]

Ive got 16 grandkids coming and going ,a never ending parade of teenage boys and more recently lots more teenage girls and 4 employees - the gloves are off though for the meter reader and the service guys for the septic tanks. As long as I greet you and welcome you in all is well - bit scary though if you try to sneak in. the one which lives with the elderly lady has worked out if she puts her hand up to open the door it stands back and lets them in and lies in the room but if the person on the other side of the door attempts to put their hand on that door handle all hell breaks loose. Its about what is normal.

Exactly, and this is the great thing about dialogue.

You come at the situation from your perspective, dare I say it, as a mother and a grandmother, business woman and farmer.

My situation is as a single person, who flits between farm and town, and who takes his dogs off property regularly.

I have to advise potential puppy owners, with due care and diligence, to the long term welfare of the pup and the family they may be about to join. So far so good, but when I look back at some of the places a pup may have gone, I am not ashamed to say, I have been very lucky. Several homes have been exceptionally good, but I can count them all and name them without looking them up.

[Rebanne]

Several of the dogs Ive bred are in situations where the people who own them only see them every couple of weeks and they are not dogs gone wild and they still know and respect the owners.

what happens when there are in season bitches around? Either the owners or the neighbours?

[Steve]

That's part of the beauty of the breed - yours live a completely different life to mine - even more so than the working ones but they suit each of us even though what is normal in our worlds is so much different.

Again I say its about what is normal and in my opinion if a Maremma is going to be a show dog and have strangers handle it when its off its own turf on leash then it should be able to cope with it as much as any other dog being shown. There is certainly no reason why the breed should be stopped from being shown but the fact is if the dogs are selected for how they look and not also how they work inevitably our breed will end up like the Kelpies and Border Collies - huge gap between those that work and those that are shown and I would hate it to go that way.

[Steve]

Several of the dogs Ive bred are in situations where the people who own them only see them every couple of weeks and they are not dogs gone wild and they still know and respect the owners.

what happens when there are in season bitches around? Either the owners or the neighbours?

They are desexed. Not because of the owners or the neighbours but due to potential issues with wild dogs or dingo. These dogs are on tens of thousands of acres.

Also a couple who work at a wallaby sanctuary and live with and guard the wallaby on thousands of acres all desexed.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Steve

[Tralee]

That's part of the beauty of the breed - yours live a completely different life to mine - even more so than the working ones but they suit each of us even though what is normal in our worlds is so much different.

Again I say its about what is normal and in my opinion if a Maremma is going to be a show dog and have strangers handle it when its off its own turf on leash then it should be able to cope with it as much as any other dog being shown. There is certainly no reason why the breed should be stopped from being shown but the fact is if the dogs are selected for how they look and not also how they work inevitably our breed will end up like the Kelpies and Border Collies - huge gap between those that work and those that are shown and I would hate it to go that way.

Well, the questions centred around their suitability as regular dometic pets.

I have not seen your dogs with your visitors, but my dogs will not let anybody approach me whether it is inside the house or outside. I have to strategically place myself in a position so that any movement by others will be away from me.

A few years back I was walking the dogs and a neighbour started to become aggressive and raised his voice.

Winja was up on his back legs staring him in the eyes and barking at him.

The dogs are protective instinctively, they know their business and they do it flawlessly.

But I would not expect them to be listed as your everyday take home dog to be left with young children who naturally have friends that come and go.

In my experience that would not just be irresponsible but criminal.

They are a special purpose dog, and if you do not have a special purpose, then another dog should be considered.

Regards