Maremmas In Show.

[Rebanne]

This breeder (IMO), seen here with Anna Albrigo, is currently producing dogs which are better than the dog Anna presented at Crufts this year.

And you can see that she is aware of the quality of his dogs.

How?

So how many of these dogs have you seen in the flesh Tralee, how many work and show? You can quote stuff and post pics from the internet but you have made some pretty big claims about the temperaments of the British and American dogs. First hand knowledge or internet knowledge?

What work do your dogs do?

[Rebanne]

They are historically a shepherdesses dog and were corralled at night with their humans.

how could they protect their flock if they were corralled with their humans? isn't night time when there is the most danger?

Think I might do some more reading at work tonight.

What work do your dogs do Tralee?

Generally speaking, the folds we came across were to hold the sheep over night, the small caravans were the sheperd's homes

and the dogs generally remained out side and loose.

The national parks had folds, flocks, herds of cattle and dogs all over them. We were approached by PMA every where we went

and they were generally lovely calm dogs.

The only dogs we noticed that were *corralled* were those that were not generally safe :)

Oh, come on!

'H' has told me all those stories.

They are hardly 'historical'

Ok if Zoiboy has it wrong, as in they are talking fairly recently, hence the not historical, what was your statement

(that I have bolded so you may easily see it) referring too? Which comes back to my question how could they protect their flock if locked up with the people and not as Zoiboy described?

[myValkyrie]

and here is some video taken at the sydney royal, perhaps the year before last

Most seem to *tolarate* the judgeing quite well.

Thanks for posting those links zoiboy - I found them really interesting. Most of those dogs in the 2nd clip don't seem to be just tolerating showing, they are really enjoying it :)

[myValkyrie]

Oh YES You have put into lovely words just what I was attempting to say. Far to many people sell the breeds short

by *thinking* they can ONLY do one thing or the other. I have had and have met a great many who were really good

at working, really good to show and also to take to things like Italian Festivals. Same dogs can do it all and do it well.

In fact I would say that the most social dogs have in fact been the best guardians.

I have 2 here that have that social, outgoing temperament & their main downfall is that they lack work ethic, they would far rather be socialising (with their humans) than working (with their flock). Asking because among stock people who use these dogs only as workers (& they are never likely to see a showring), it is accepted as truth that "the friendly dogs won't/don't work". In my admittedly limited experience this has been pretty well borne out - are they more the exception than the rule?

[zoiboy]

I have 2 here that have that social, outgoing temperament & their main downfall is that they lack work ethic, they would far rather be socialising (with their humans) than working (with their flock). Asking because among stock people who use these dogs only as workers (& they are never likely to see a showring), it is accepted as truth that "the friendly dogs won't/don't work". In my admittedly limited experience this has been pretty well borne out - are they more the exception than the rule?

I think a lot depends on the dog, the situation, and your expectations. The first question I would ask about your dog

is..... Do you loose stock to predation?

[zoiboy]

Here we have a young dog I bred, he has NOT been exposed to children much but seems to

revel in their company, he had not so much as seen a chook until he was nearly 4. He

now lives with and guards chooks, has done for over 12 months now. He has not hurt a chook

or lost a chook since he took the job on. This is what it's all about for me.

Ps I give up on this photo, it's either not here or here twice

Edited March 16, 2013 by zoiboy

[Tralee]

Delete the pic and reload zoiboy.

I have several similar assessments.

It seems like a good idea to me.

It would be good if Judges could be Maremma certified.

I am serious.

[WreckitWhippet]

Delete the pic and reload zoiboy.

I have several similar assessments.

It seems like a good idea to me.

It would be good if Judges could be Maremma certified.

I am serious.

If you want certified Maremma judges, then hold a Specialty and bring in a breed expert. Your breed club could also have some input into the current judges training scheme but you cannot seriously expect the current judging parameters be overhauled just for one breed.

[Rottshowgirl]

We would all love it if the judges every week were experts in our own breeds but they're not called All Breeds Shows for nothing. If you don't wish for All Breeds Judges to assess & grade your dog in conjunction with them doing same with other breeds, only enter specialties under judges you deem worthy.

Specialist judges aren't always the be all and end all anyway, in most breeds there are trends, differences based on judge's origin & what they're regularly exposed to plus judge's own fetishes or preferences.

[espinay2]

The first question I would ask about your dog

is..... Do you loose stock to predation?

Yep, always the first question to be asked. I have heard that plenty of times over the years (both first and second hand) when owners don't think the dog is 'working' as they don't always see it doing anything.

But if no stock is getting lost, regardless of what the dog 'seems' to be doing, it is doing its job.

As for judges being 'breed experts' - ditto what others have said. Every person of every breed would love that. But that is not what all breeds shows or judging are about and as much as we would like them to be, no judge is going to be an expert on every dog in even one group, let alone if they judge more than one.

You either watch the shedules and enter under those that are when you can (we will travel good distances for those shows) or that is what breed specialties are for. And yes, different specialist judges will have different preferences too.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

We would all love it if the judges every week were experts in our own breeds but they're not called All Breeds Shows for nothing. If you don't wish for All Breeds Judges to assess & grade your dog in conjunction with them doing same with other breeds, only enter specialties under judges you deem worthy.

Specialist judges aren't always the be all and end all anyway, in most breeds there are trends, differences based on judge's origin & what they're regularly exposed to plus judge's own fetishes or preferences.

This. And while all breeds judges might not be able to apply the detailed knowledge a specialist can, when it comes to temperament, I think this thread shows a bit of tortuous self-justification. I show a breed that isn't effusive with strangers. Not effusive with strangers doesn't mean "can't stand and be examined in the presence of its owner/master/handler". It's interesting that Azawakhs were dragged in. I think if people knew what many of those silkily perfect Afghans are really like (note "a certain keen fierceness" in the standard) they would have renewed respect for their handlers. The thing is, those handlers, and the handlers of Dobes and some of the stroppier terriers are all over it. The dogs are examined, they behave, there is no drama. A Maremma is not a Presa.

[Tralee]

[Trisven13]

We would all love it if the judges every week were experts in our own breeds but they're not called All Breeds Shows for nothing. If you don't wish for All Breeds Judges to assess & grade your dog in conjunction with them doing same with other breeds, only enter specialties under judges you deem worthy.

Specialist judges aren't always the be all and end all anyway, in most breeds there are trends, differences based on judge's origin & what they're regularly exposed to plus judge's own fetishes or preferences.

This. And while all breeds judges might not be able to apply the detailed knowledge a specialist can, when it comes to temperament, I think this thread shows a bit of tortuous self-justification. I show a breed that isn't effusive with strangers. Not effusive with strangers doesn't mean "can't stand and be examined in the presence of its owner/master/handler". It's interesting that Azawakhs were dragged in. I think if people knew what many of those silkily perfect Afghans are really like (note "a certain keen fierceness" in the standard) they would have renewed respect for their handlers. The thing is, those handlers, and the handlers of Dobes and some of the stroppier terriers are all over it. The dogs are examined, they behave, there is no drama. A Maremma is not a Presa.

I think it is a little rude to say that I "dragged Azawakhs in". I had spent a really pleasant hour or so chatting with the owners of the Azawakhs at the Canberra Royal, admiring their dogs, discussing the fun and games of showing a breed new to Australia and the idiosyncrasies of their breed. They were the ones who told me that the breed wasn't touched by Judges overseas and that only once in Australia had they had a judge "who knew how they were to be judged". I wasn't dragging anything in, I was interested in what they had to say, it matched what I'd read about the breed and didn't take anything away from what I thought of their dogs. I raised what they said because, whilst Tralee annoys many on here (including me many times), he didn't appear to me to be saying anything different to what these people had to say.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I think it is a little rude to say that I "dragged Azawakhs in". I had spent a really pleasant hour or so chatting with the owners of the Azawakhs at the Canberra Royal, admiring their dogs, discussing the fun and games of showing a breed new to Australia and the idiosyncrasies of their breed. They were the ones who told me that the breed wasn't touched by Judges overseas and that only once in Australia had they had a judge "who knew how they were to be judged". I wasn't dragging anything in, I was interested in what they had to say, it matched what I'd read about the breed and didn't take anything away from what I thought of their dogs. I raised what they said because, whilst Tralee annoys many on here (including me many times), he didn't appear to me to be saying anything different to what these people had to say.

I've been chatting to Trisven about this to explain why I disagree. My tone was unnecessarily harsh tho', and for that I apologise.

[Trisven13]

And I accept the apology :)

[Tralee]

We would all love it if the judges every week were experts in our own breeds but they're not called All Breeds Shows for nothing. If you don't wish for All Breeds Judges to assess & grade your dog in conjunction with them doing same with other breeds, only enter specialties under judges you deem worthy.

Specialist judges aren't always the be all and end all anyway, in most breeds there are trends, differences based on judge's origin & what they're regularly exposed to plus judge's own fetishes or preferences.

This. And while all breeds judges might not be able to apply the detailed knowledge a specialist can, when it comes to temperament, I think this thread shows a bit of tortuous self-justification. I show a breed that isn't effusive with strangers. Not effusive with strangers doesn't mean "can't stand and be examined in the presence of its owner/master/handler". It's interesting that Azawakhs were dragged in. I think if people knew what many of those silkily perfect Afghans are really like (note "a certain keen fierceness" in the standard) they would have renewed respect for their handlers. The thing is, those handlers, and the handlers of Dobes and some of the stroppier terriers are all over it. The dogs are examined, they behave, there is no drama. A Maremma is not a Presa.

I think it is a little rude to say that I "dragged Azawakhs in". I had spent a really pleasant hour or so chatting with the owners of the Azawakhs at the Canberra Royal, admiring their dogs, discussing the fun and games of showing a breed new to Australia and the idiosyncrasies of their breed. They were the ones who told me that the breed wasn't touched by Judges overseas and that only once in Australia had they had a judge "who knew how they were to be judged". I wasn't dragging anything in, I was interested in what they had to say, it matched what I'd read about the breed and didn't take anything away from what I thought of their dogs. I raised what they said because, whilst Tralee annoys many on here (including me many times), he didn't appear to me to be saying anything different to what these people had to say.

I found your contribution very helpful, supportive and in the best interests of the dogs.

The intentions of hosts and authorities at Dogs Shows are no more immune to the risks of being coopted by those who either inadvertently or deliberately turn them into political power struggles and personal self interests endeavours than is any other human enterprise.

I found the comments by some that certain breeds can be singled out for bias, prejudice and discrimination extraordinary.

Making claims that dog shows are sport (I doubt that they fit the criteria of games unless you place hunting in the sport group) and dogs should be seasoned experts and flawless to a fault is just ignorant.

Why bother with baby puppy, minor puppy, puppy, junior and intermediate classes if dogs are not wanted until they are mature and have mellowed into an adult attitude?

[WreckitWhippet]

We would all love it if the judges every week were experts in our own breeds but they're not called All Breeds Shows for nothing. If you don't wish for All Breeds Judges to assess & grade your dog in conjunction with them doing same with other breeds, only enter specialties under judges you deem worthy.

Specialist judges aren't always the be all and end all anyway, in most breeds there are trends, differences based on judge's origin & what they're regularly exposed to plus judge's own fetishes or preferences.

This. And while all breeds judges might not be able to apply the detailed knowledge a specialist can, when it comes to temperament, I think this thread shows a bit of tortuous self-justification. I show a breed that isn't effusive with strangers. Not effusive with strangers doesn't mean "can't stand and be examined in the presence of its owner/master/handler". It's interesting that Azawakhs were dragged in. I think if people knew what many of those silkily perfect Afghans are really like (note "a certain keen fierceness" in the standard) they would have renewed respect for their handlers. The thing is, those handlers, and the handlers of Dobes and some of the stroppier terriers are all over it. The dogs are examined, they behave, there is no drama. A Maremma is not a Presa.

I think it is a little rude to say that I "dragged Azawakhs in". I had spent a really pleasant hour or so chatting with the owners of the Azawakhs at the Canberra Royal, admiring their dogs, discussing the fun and games of showing a breed new to Australia and the idiosyncrasies of their breed. They were the ones who told me that the breed wasn't touched by Judges overseas and that only once in Australia had they had a judge "who knew how they were to be judged". I wasn't dragging anything in, I was interested in what they had to say, it matched what I'd read about the breed and didn't take anything away from what I thought of their dogs. I raised what they said because, whilst Tralee annoys many on here (including me many times), he didn't appear to me to be saying anything different to what these people had to say.

I found your contribution very helpful, supportive and in the best interests of the dogs.

The intentions of hosts and authorities at Dogs Shows are no more immune to the risks of being coopted by those who either inadvertently or deliberately turn them into political power struggles and personal self interests endeavours than is any other human enterprise.

I found the comments by some that certain breeds can be singled out for bias, prejudice and discrimination extraordinary.

Making claims that dog shows are sport (I doubt that they fit the criteria of games unless you place hunting in the sport group) and dogs should be seasoned experts and flawless to a fault is just ignorant.

Why bother with baby puppy, minor puppy, puppy, junior and intermediate classes if dogs are not wanted until they are mature and have mellowed into an adult attitude?

I don't know what you are bringing into the ring but my babies are more than capable of standing for examination, they might be a bit wriggly for the first day or two out, but they are able to be judged as a judge would expect.

What's your next excuse going to be ?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Why bother with baby puppy, minor puppy, puppy, junior and intermediate classes if dogs are not wanted until they are mature and have mellowed into an adult attitude?

Nobody said that. In our breed extension for example, it says "adolescents should be treated with sensitivity". But that means what it says, not that they have a license to be total fruitcakes that no-one can lay a hand on. IOW, if they are going through a tricky period, if you treat them sensitively, they will stand just fine.

Mind you, I'd probably rewrite that bit to say "adolescents may try it on, be gentle but firm" :laugh:

[Salukifan]

Tralee:

Why bother with baby puppy, minor puppy, puppy, junior and intermediate

classes if dogs are not wanted until they are mature and have mellowed into an

adult attitude?

Well, if for no other reason, to consolidate training and teach them to accept the handlng of a stranger in a show situation. That doesn't mean you have to drag them out every weekend but getting pups into the ring and having fun at the very time when the judges WILL cut them some slack allows them to be accustomed to the ring and judges before the pressure really comes on.

It's just like any other dog sport. You can train at home or at the dog club until you are blue in the face but the dymamics of competition are different and largely that's due to the handler! Of course the dynamics of a show day, with so much happening also change it up for the dog.

So you start them young so that you can build a team between you to perforrm no matter what's going on.

[Steve]

In all honesty some of the things that are being said here are in my opinion a bit off the mark and Tralee has some valid points would be good just to discuss and debate the subject because as I don't show my dogs and never will do so personally its a part of the breed I've never considered in much detail but it appears by some to be about going after Tralee again and Im not up for it.

There is one thing I know about Tralee and that is 100% his intention is what is best for the breed and I dont believe its just about his dogs not winning or him making excuses etc

I dont always agree with him but thats part of what makes discussing things important so we can test what we think we know.