Maremmas In Show.

[zoiboy]

Thanks Zoiboy, enjoyed your videos and understood what you were saying ;-)

Thanks Rebanne, I am pleased some one does :))).

[Tralee]

I've already seen the Sydney Royal, I just prefer to look to the Italian competitions.

The Italians have worked damn hard over the past few decades to return their breed to its ideal conformation and temperament.

However I am passionate about yhe breed and to have ANYONE touting that fearful is correct in a Maremma is just plain wrong and so far from the reality in general. Shy dogs may well have a place in some working packs but they should not have a place in a breeding program.

Well, I certainly am not going to malign or berate other Maremma breeders or exhibitors

My advocacy for the breed precedes the screening of the Crufts video, but if you believe you can or have achieved much more than Anna Albrigo with innumerable intenational BOB's and BIS's, who chose to present that dog at Crufts then high kudos to you.

Allevamento di Selvaspina.

Selvaspina's Champion Maremmas

Notwithstanding, there are a few other breeders in Italy who have dogs that surpass her breeding lines. IMO

You know. I had a girl who was no trouble at all in the Show Ring. Unfortunately, I did not care much for her temperament.

A dog that has to be restrained, on the podium but yet can still win BIS in Italy and Internationally surely tells us something about the true essence of the Maremma.

Colloquially, the British dogs are too soft in terms of temperament, and the American dogs are to hard.

I believe the Italians have found the true expression of temperament in the Maremma and I will take my cues from them.

You have to excuse me if I give very little credence to some observers on the far distant fringes of exhibiting Maremma.

[espinay2]

Zoiboy I get what you are saying 100%. It is VERY important to understand the difference and distinguish between fear/hyper responsiveness/aggression and correct working temperament. They are not the same thing. In fact a dog that is hyper responsive, acts out of fear or is quick to jump to aggression is showing traits that can in some cases be a disadvantage in a working situation. These types of dogs can often be less adaptive and less able to cope with change. They may also be less able to discriminate and can 'act out' more.

Not sure about Maremma, but certainly with the Pyrs you will see a VERY different dog off property to on as well. Off territory is off duty. They will 'switch on' when necessary certainly, but otherwise they are relaxed and may present a very different and somewhat skewed view of what they are like at home on the job. At home it is straight into work mode. For example, last night the foxes were quite active. The dogs were busy outside patrolling and barking and keeping things safe. My 10 month old bitch was out there working with them. At 4am she is barking up a storm out in the paddock and keeping 'her' chickens safe. At 10am though she is at a show and enjoying saying hi to people who stop to chat. She switches from one role to the other very easily.

[Salukifan]

Breed temperament is always going to be essential.

But isn't there a place in any breed to moderate that temperament for the show ring by socialisation and training?

If you don't train your dog to tolerate a strangers touch, how do you get a vet to handle it?

All very well to talk about what's essential in a dog protecting it's flock but there are plenty of breeds that should display guarding qualities that can be handled by judges in the ring.

Surely you can condition a dog to tolerate handling???? And if you can't, why show it? No working breed rises or falls on its show wins.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[zoiboy]

Zoiboy I get what you are saying 100%. It is VERY important to understand the difference and distinguish between fear/hyper responsiveness/aggression and correct working temperament. They are not the same thing. In fact a dog that is hyper responsive, acts out of fear or is quick to jump to aggression is showing traits that can in some cases be a disadvantage in a working situation. These types of dogs can often be less adaptive and less able to cope with change. They may also be less able to discriminate and can 'act out' more.

Not sure about Maremma, but certainly with the Pyrs you will see a VERY different dog off property to on as well. Off territory is off duty. They will 'switch on' when necessary certainly, but otherwise they are relaxed and may present a very different and somewhat skewed view of what they are like at home on the job. At home it is straight into work mode. For example, last night the foxes were quite active. The dogs were busy outside patrolling and barking and keeping things safe. My 10 month old bitch was out there working with them. At 4am she is barking up a storm out in the paddock and keeping 'her' chickens safe. At 10am though she is at a show and enjoying saying hi to people who stop to chat. She switches from one role to the other very easily.

Oh YES You have put into lovely words just what I was attempting to say. Far to many people sell the breeds short

by *thinking* they can ONLY do one thing or the other. I have had and have met a great many who were really good

at working, really good to show and also to take to things like Italian Festivals. Same dogs can do it all and do it well.

In fact I would say that the most social dogs have in fact been the best guardians.

[WreckitWhippet]

When my Anatolian was non-awarded (as she would not be handled by the judge in the ring), the judge was a gentleman wearing a hat. He was very focused on the dog and had a brisk approach. That was enough for her - the hat, the long, intense stare, followed by a rapid approach. By the time he reached both hands out to touch either side of her head, she was positively bristling.

He realised she was not happy, so moved her around before trying to approach again but she was not having any of it - I mouthed her for him & every time he went to move past her head she would turn to face him, she simply would not allow him to be where she could not see him. I'm not saying the judging was bad - he was a very nice bloke, gave her every chance to settle, then explained his decision & I agreed, he could not possibly award her if he could not touch her. This particular dog had been successfully shown prior to this & was again after (multi class in group wins including a RUBIG) - she was never thrilled to be handled but tolerated it reasonably most of the time.

A judge doesn't need to give the LGD breeds more time - but there are a few things that can help make handling them much easier for both the judge & the dog (& some judges are very aware of these already):

- approach the owner (rather than the dog) & a quick "hi, how are you going" before handling the dog goes a long way

- be deliberate & confident with your handling, don't be nervous or rushed

- please don't eyeball the dog

- don't lean closely over the dog

- if an LGD draws his head away from you, don't assume he is timid

I agree that if you want to show, you have to play by the rules & the dog is going to have to tolerate being handled - if he won't, then showing is not something either of you are going to enjoy. Having said that, I think expecting them to have a friendly, welcoming attitude is unrealistic & not what the standard requires.

I never said they had to be friendly, what I expect is for them to tolerate it.

No.

You miss the whole nuance of the argument and the protest.

The Maremma does not tolerate.

The Maremma is not a submissive breed, they do not submit to a stranger's expectations.

Either do they submit to the accompanying shepherd.

On the contrary, they work in partnership sharing the role of guardian, notwithstanding, they don't need the shepherd for their role as guadian.

I simply do want to see shows being turned into a circus.

The dogs are presented as they should be, I don't need some patsy of a dog doing endless circus tricks for the convenience of a Judge or Kennel Club or Canine Council that can't be bothered to make the extra effort to accomodate all breeds, maintain a level playing field and apply the rules fairly.

They are my expectations as a paid member of a CCC.

Then perhaps they have no place in the show ring at all

Edited March 16, 2013 by WreckitWhippet

[Tralee]

When my Anatolian was non-awarded (as she would not be handled by the judge in the ring), the judge was a gentleman wearing a hat. He was very focused on the dog and had a brisk approach. That was enough for her - the hat, the long, intense stare, followed by a rapid approach. By the time he reached both hands out to touch either side of her head, she was positively bristling.

He realised she was not happy, so moved her around before trying to approach again but she was not having any of it - I mouthed her for him & every time he went to move past her head she would turn to face him, she simply would not allow him to be where she could not see him. I'm not saying the judging was bad - he was a very nice bloke, gave her every chance to settle, then explained his decision & I agreed, he could not possibly award her if he could not touch her. This particular dog had been successfully shown prior to this & was again after (multi class in group wins including a RUBIG) - she was never thrilled to be handled but tolerated it reasonably most of the time.

A judge doesn't need to give the LGD breeds more time - but there are a few things that can help make handling them much easier for both the judge & the dog (& some judges are very aware of these already):

- approach the owner (rather than the dog) & a quick "hi, how are you going" before handling the dog goes a long way

- be deliberate & confident with your handling, don't be nervous or rushed

- please don't eyeball the dog

- don't lean closely over the dog

- if an LGD draws his head away from you, don't assume he is timid

I agree that if you want to show, you have to play by the rules & the dog is going to have to tolerate being handled - if he won't, then showing is not something either of you are going to enjoy. Having said that, I think expecting them to have a friendly, welcoming attitude is unrealistic & not what the standard requires.

I never said they had to be friendly, what I expect is for them to tolerate it.

No.

You miss the whole nuance of the argument and the protest.

The Maremma does not tolerate.

The Maremma is not a submissive breed, they do not submit to a stranger's expectations.

Either do they submit to the accompanying shepherd.

On the contrary, they work in partnership sharing the role of guardian, notwithstanding, they don't need the shepherd for their role as guadian.

I simply do want to see shows being turned into a circus.

The dogs are presented as they should be, I don't need some patsy of a dog doing endless circus tricks for the convenience of a Judge or Kennel Club or Canine Council that can't be bothered to make the extra effort to accomodate all breeds, maintain a level playing field and apply the rules fairly.

They are my expectations as a paid member of a CCC.

Then perhaps they have no place in the show ring at all

Then perhaps you should write to the ANKC and ask them to remove the Maremma from its Breed lists.

Youknow, that's really a thoughtless, inconsiderate and bigoted statement.

It just shows you haven't taken my comments or the comments of others on balance.

No-one is arguing that the dogs are to be accepted if they are vicious.

The fear is, and it is a very real fear, that the temperament be so grossly distorted that the Breed becomes something akin to the British Maremma.

A total Show Ring patsy.

[espinay2]

It is up to the breeder then to be sure that they maintain temperament suitable for work. At the same time though it is important to make sure that they are preserving the 'right' temperament for the breed. Which as I understand it is one of the reasons the Italian club has introduced the TMC test (as a requirement for the title of Italian Champion I beleive). The importance of good temperament was again brought back to me today at the show I was at when a family was explaining rather sadly to me that they used to have a Maremma on their small farm, but had to have it put down after continuing issues with hyper responsiveness (my word for what they were describing) as it attacked and caused injury to their son when friends came to visit (from their explanation of events possibly a case of redirected aggression). Sadly this is not the first time I have heard similar stories. If Italy is held in such high esteeem (I do understand that as Pyr folk tend to look to France - but understand that they are not perfect and have their own share of issues - something they themselves recognise), maybe Maremma owners and breeders here could arrange for the TMC to be conducted for their own dogs?

Edited March 16, 2013 by espinay2

[WreckitWhippet]

If preserving the "correct" temperament for the breed and maintaining it's working ability means that it's not suitable for the show ring, then perhaps it's best that the breed isn't exhibited. The custodians need to decide what is best for the breed, perserve and maintain the working ability or dull and dumb it down, so it becomes a Goldren Retriever and meets and greets everyone with a waggly tail.

There are some breeds that are simply not cut out for showing and there's nothing wrong with that and if that's the case, leave them at home in the paddock, doing the job they were bred for.

[espinay2]

A dog doesn't have to greet everyone with a waggly tail to be shown. There are MANY breeds which have a reserved nature in the ring. But aggression or being overly shy are out. And there is a BIG difference between the two.

[Tralee]

If preserving the "correct" temperament for the breed and maintaining it's working ability means that it's not suitable for the show ring, then perhaps it's best that the breed isn't exhibited. The custodians need to decide what is best for the breed, perserve and maintain the working ability or dull and dumb it down, so it becomes a Goldren Retriever and meets and greets everyone with a waggly tail.

There are some breeds that are simply not cut out for showing and there's nothing wrong with that and if that's the case, leave them at home in the paddock, doing the job they were bred for.

Oh terrific.

Just what we need, a hegemonony of oppression and discrimination.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

A dog doesn't have to greet everyone with a waggly tail to be shown. There are MANY breeds which have a reserved nature in the ring. But aggression or being overly shy are out. And there is a BIG difference between the two.

There may be a difference between the two but they are both categorised as temperaments.

I am led to believe that a puppy who is a fussy eater, or equally a puppy who shows excessive food guarding are potential temperament problems.

This doesn't mean they should be dismissed, it just means they will need extra consideration in the way they are raised.

Somehow, I am beginning to lean towards the view that no dog needs to be condemned.

[WreckitWhippet]

If preserving the "correct" temperament for the breed and maintaining it's working ability means that it's not suitable for the show ring, then perhaps it's best that the breed isn't exhibited. The custodians need to decide what is best for the breed, perserve and maintain the working ability or dull and dumb it down, so it becomes a Goldren Retriever and meets and greets everyone with a waggly tail.

There are some breeds that are simply not cut out for showing and there's nothing wrong with that and if that's the case, leave them at home in the paddock, doing the job they were bred for.

Oh terrific.

Just what we need, a hegemonony of oppression and discrimination.

As it stands at the moment, there are a number of them out there as a disaster waiting to happen.

If the correct temperament for the breed, means that it will not readily accept the hands of a stranger ( which is required in the ring ) then perhaps it is best that they are not shown. If dulling and dumbing it down is the sacrafice that has to be made in order to achieve a "show dog" then that's certainly not in the best interests of the breed.

There is no oppression or disrimination involved, the ring is not place for a dog that cannot be judged according to Australian ring standards.

As I recall you've had problems with your dogs in the past in the ring.

[espinay2]

When it comes to selecting suitable breeding stock it is VERY important to discriminate and even 'condemn'. I am thinking the Italians would be the first to say it too?

[WreckitWhippet]

Why potentially ruin a breed, just so you can win a ribbon or two. A working dog is valued for it's working ability, not 100 points

[Tralee]

If preserving the "correct" temperament for the breed and maintaining it's working ability means that it's not suitable for the show ring, then perhaps it's best that the breed isn't exhibited. The custodians need to decide what is best for the breed, perserve and maintain the working ability or dull and dumb it down, so it becomes a Goldren Retriever and meets and greets everyone with a waggly tail.

There are some breeds that are simply not cut out for showing and there's nothing wrong with that and if that's the case, leave them at home in the paddock, doing the job they were bred for.

Oh terrific.

Just what we need, a hegemonony of oppression and discrimination.

As it stands at the moment, there are a number of them out there as a disaster waiting to happen.

If the correct temperament for the breed, means that it will not readily accept the hands of a stranger ( which is required in the ring ) then perhaps it is best that they are not shown. If dulling and dumbing it down is the sacrafice that has to be made in order to achieve a "show dog" then that's certainly not in the best interests of the breed.

There is no oppression or disrimination involved, the ring is not place for a dog that cannot be judged according to Australian ring standards.

As I recall you've had problems with your dogs in the past in the ring.

Have I?

Which dog has been banned?

I am sure dogs have been banned, and quite a large number of them, but none of my dogs.

It is clear that you are aligning yourself against the dogs and therefore your judgment cannot be trusted.

I would simply hope that you do not have a casting vote on any board or council in which I am directly connected.

I think this is: Good Day Ma'am

Edited March 16, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

Why potentially ruin a breed, just so you can win a ribbon or two. A working dog is valued for it's working ability, not 100 points

They do it in Italy.

They are the progenitors of the Breed.

Are they not the leaders? (Rhetorical question)

[Tralee]

When it comes to selecting suitable breeding stock it is VERY important to discriminate and even 'condemn'. I am thinking the Italians would be the first to say it too?

True, but that's not the issue.

An exhibitor is going to take a suitable dog to present at a Show.

In the past, a small number of judges have not, IMO, been fair in their comportment around my dogs.

Some have been blatantly deliberate and others ignorantly innocent.

But neither should be excusable.

It has happened in the past and is more than likely to happen in the future.

It happened at Crufts for cries sakes.

I would want my dogs to be dogs first, companions second, show dogs third and breeders last of all.

I simply do not want the order changed for the convenience of some overbearing Judge, Dog Club or Canine Council.

[rebelsquest]

If preserving the "correct" temperament for the breed and maintaining it's working ability means that it's not suitable for the show ring, then perhaps it's best that the breed isn't exhibited. The custodians need to decide what is best for the breed, perserve and maintain the working ability or dull and dumb it down, so it becomes a Goldren Retriever and meets and greets everyone with a waggly tail.

There are some breeds that are simply not cut out for showing and there's nothing wrong with that and if that's the case, leave them at home in the paddock, doing the job they were bred for.

Oh terrific.

Just what we need, a hegemonony of oppression and discrimination.

As it stands at the moment, there are a number of them out there as a disaster waiting to happen.

If the correct temperament for the breed, means that it will not readily accept the hands of a stranger ( which is required in the ring ) then perhaps it is best that they are not shown. If dulling and dumbing it down is the sacrafice that has to be made in order to achieve a "show dog" then that's certainly not in the best interests of the breed.

There is no oppression or disrimination involved, the ring is not place for a dog that cannot be judged according to Australian ring standards.

As I recall you've had problems with your dogs in the past in the ring.

Have I?

Which dog has been banned?

I am sure dogs have been banned, and quite a large number of them, but none of my dogs.

It is clear that you are aligning yourself against the dogs and therefore your judgment cannot be trusted.

I would simly hope that you do not have a casting vote on any board or council in which I am directly connected.

I think this is: Good Day Ma'am

[espinay2]

When it comes to selecting suitable breeding stock it is VERY important to discriminate and even 'condemn'. I am thinking the Italians would be the first to say it too?

True, but that's not the issue.

An exhibitor is going to take a suitable dog to present at a Show.

In the past, a small number of judges have not, IMO, been fair in their comportment around my dogs.

Some have been blatantly deliberate and others ignorantly innocent.

But neither should be excusable.

It has happened in the past and is more than likely to happen in the future.

It happened at Crufts for cries sakes.

I would want my dogs to be dogs first, companions second, show dogs third and breeders last of all.

I simply do not want the order changed for the convenience of some overbearing Judge, Dog Club or Canine Council.

So how is the way the judges are behaving different from how the judges behaved in the videos of the Italian TMC I posted?