Maremmas In Show.

[BlackJaq]

I think you miss my point.

Maremma will allow themselves to be handled. I just had one at the the this arvo. But I made it quite clear to the Vet when greeting the dog not to rush, lunge or overly push the dog when patting. He then waited and let the dog approach and invite the interaction that folowed. Beautiful dog, beautiful temperament.

See, easy as pie.

Each dog, in all breeds, must be examined to the breed standard in both conformation and temperament.

Otherwise dog shows are just a circus.

and, in the show ring, just how many extra minutes do we allow a maremma to make up it's mind whether to allow a judge to examine it or not? And should the same courtesy be extended to other dogs/breeds?

It doesn't involve extra minutes at all.

It simply means not rushing the dog, not lunging at the dog, not flicking the wrist behind the ears and not setting out to spook the dog.

All of these deliberate and unintentioned acts I have witnessed first hand.

I could tell you about one particular married pair who deliberately orchestrated an unrelenting tirade on my dogs over a full weekend of showing, all witnessed by another all breed judge, and the two of them then went off and laughed about it to another Maremma breeder.

You can put up objections as much as you like but the dogs are not going to submit to inconsiderate approaches.

So how is that fair?

I don't think this is out of the ordinary with many breeds who bond strongly to their owners but are aloof with strangers. Guarding tendencies might be aroused by somebody being nervous or overly fast in their movements if the dog has guarding tendencies (like a guardian breed for example).

My Weimaraner was quite put off at the abrupt way one of the ladies at agility was flicking her hand at her head in an attempt to "pet" her as she jumped on the table. I don't think the lady meant anything bad by it but the dog obviously took it to be swat rather than a pat and would not let the lady touch her again for the rest of the session. The instructors were putting hands on all the dogs to make sure they could be safely handled by strangers but I did not think that particular move was very appropriate and wa snot overly inclined to force my dog to accept this lady touching her after this faux pas.

Likewise, people who approach my dog very abruptly or go straight for the pat on the head should not expect her to accept their touch. It is only courteous to approach in a civilized and calm manner and let the dog have a sniff and preferably initiate the interaction, rather than rapidly entering the dog's space and slapping it on the head a few times...

Not all breeds love all people as labs are expected to and not all love to be touched by strangers. As long as the dog is under the handler's control I see no issue with this.

Edited March 14, 2013 by BlackJaq

[myValkyrie]

I think you miss my point.

Maremma will allow themselves to be handled. I just had one at the the this arvo. But I made it quite clear to the Vet when greeting the dog not to rush, lunge or overly push the dog when patting. He then waited and let the dog approach and invite the interaction that folowed. Beautiful dog, beautiful temperament.

See, easy as pie.

Each dog, in all breeds, must be examined to the breed standard in both conformation and temperament.

Otherwise dog shows are just a circus.

and, in the show ring, just how many extra minutes do we allow a maremma to make up it's mind whether to allow a judge to examine it or not? And should the same courtesy be extended to other dogs/breeds?

I don't think the time factor is the issue for some of the LGDs - it's more the approach & method of handling that makes a difference.

When my Anatolian was non-awarded (as she would not be handled by the judge in the ring), the judge was a gentleman wearing a hat. He was very focused on the dog and had a brisk approach. That was enough for her - the hat, the long, intense stare, followed by a rapid approach. By the time he reached both hands out to touch either side of her head, she was positively bristling.

He realised she was not happy, so moved her around before trying to approach again but she was not having any of it - I mouthed her for him & every time he went to move past her head she would turn to face him, she simply would not allow him to be where she could not see him. I'm not saying the judging was bad - he was a very nice bloke, gave her every chance to settle, then explained his decision & I agreed, he could not possibly award her if he could not touch her. This particular dog had been successfully shown prior to this & was again after (multi class in group wins including a RUBIG) - she was never thrilled to be handled but tolerated it reasonably most of the time.

A judge doesn't need to give the LGD breeds more time - but there are a few things that can help make handling them much easier for both the judge & the dog (& some judges are very aware of these already):

- approach the owner (rather than the dog) & a quick "hi, how are you going" before handling the dog goes a long way

- be deliberate & confident with your handling, don't be nervous or rushed

- please don't eyeball the dog

- don't lean closely over the dog

- if an LGD draws his head away from you, don't assume he is timid

I agree that if you want to show, you have to play by the rules & the dog is going to have to tolerate being handled - if he won't, then showing is not something either of you are going to enjoy. Having said that, I think expecting them to have a friendly, welcoming attitude is unrealistic & not what the standard requires.

[BlackJaq]

I think that perhaps exhibition is not for every breed or every dog of a certain breed. The owners and custodians of such breeds need to recognise this.

Yes I would agree with this if they are all to be judged in the same way, which is what we currently expect.

I also agree that some correct working temperaments in some breeds are definitely not suitable to be shown. I also do not think there is anything wrong with that as long as the dog is still performing the actual work that temperament is required for.

[espinay2]

I do agree that different dogs require different approaches and an LGD (and many other breeds - saluki and Belgian shepherds spring to mind) should not be expected to act like a lab or golden retriever when approached. The way some judges approach and handle dogs too does leave something to be desired (there are some judges I would never enter a puppy under for example). At the same time though we need to be hyper aware of where to draw the line and IMO in some cases there is a danger of excusing issues with temperament when they are confused with 'how the breed is'. I note that the Italian maremma club has been addressing temperament as an issue (see the attachment in my previous post ) and while it doesn't address the specific issues it would be interesting to know what that club considers they are. The character test used by the club btw looks very similar to the test de comportment used by the French Pyr club. It was interesting to see the test being conducted over there and what was tolerated and what wasn't. While waryness and alertness was and was expected, backing up in the manner shown in the crufts video, with that(albeit different) LGDbreed was marked down in the gradings.

[Rebanne]

Personally I don't think that any dog , regardless of it's breed, belong in or around the ring if it lunges and carries on and a judge can't get their hands on it and judge within the normal judging parameters .

ETA: If they want to be judged by breed experts and judged differntly to other breeds, then that it what a "specialty" is for.

Agree

I think that perhaps exhibition is not for every breed or every dog of a certain breed. The owners and custodians of such breeds need to recognise this.

Agree

The instructors were putting hands on all the dogs to make sure they could be safely handled by strangers but I did not think that particular move was very appropriate and wa snot overly inclined to force my dog to accept this lady touching her after this faux pas.

Likewise, people who approach my dog very abruptly or go straight for the pat on the head should not expect her to accept their touch. It is only courteous to approach in a civilized and calm manner and let the dog have a sniff and preferably initiate the interaction, rather than rapidly entering the dog's space and slapping it on the head a few times...

Not all breeds love all people as labs are expected to and not all love to be touched by strangers. As long as the dog is under the handler's control I see no issue with this.

In agility there is no need for a dog to accept another person touching them, but in the show ring, like it or not, that is how they are judged. I have never seen a judge slap a dog a few times on the head.

When my Anatolian was non-awarded (as she would not be handled by the judge in the ring), the judge was a gentleman wearing a hat. He was very focused on the dog and had a brisk approach. That was enough for her - the hat, the long, intense stare, followed by a rapid approach. By the time he reached both hands out to touch either side of her head, she was positively bristling.

He realised she was not happy, so moved her around before trying to approach again but she was not having any of it - I mouthed her for him & every time he went to move past her head she would turn to face him, she simply would not allow him to be where she could not see him. I'm not saying the judging was bad - he was a very nice bloke, gave her every chance to settle, then explained his decision & I agreed, he could not possibly award her if he could not touch her. This particular dog had been successfully shown prior to this & was again after (multi class in group wins including a RUBIG) - she was never thrilled to be handled but tolerated it reasonably most of the time.

A judge doesn't need to give the LGD breeds more time - but there are a few things that can help make handling them much easier for both the judge & the dog (& some judges are very aware of these already):

- approach the owner (rather than the dog) & a quick "hi, how are you going" before handling the dog goes a long way

- be deliberate & confident with your handling, don't be nervous or rushed

- please don't eyeball the dog

- don't lean closely over the dog

- if an LGD draws his head away from you, don't assume he is timid

I agree that if you want to show, you have to play by the rules & the dog is going to have to tolerate being handled - if he won't, then showing is not something either of you are going to enjoy. Having said that, I think expecting them to have a friendly, welcoming attitude is unrealistic & not what the standard requires.

I never said they had to be friendly, what I expect is for them to tolerate it.

I also agree that some correct working temperaments in some breeds are definitely not suitable to be shown. I also do not think there is anything wrong with that as long as the dog is still performing the actual work that temperament is required for.

I don't think there is anything wrong with it either

[espinay2]

Some of the TMC test in Italy:

[Tralee]

When my Anatolian was non-awarded (as she would not be handled by the judge in the ring), the judge was a gentleman wearing a hat. He was very focused on the dog and had a brisk approach. That was enough for her - the hat, the long, intense stare, followed by a rapid approach. By the time he reached both hands out to touch either side of her head, she was positively bristling.

He realised she was not happy, so moved her around before trying to approach again but she was not having any of it - I mouthed her for him & every time he went to move past her head she would turn to face him, she simply would not allow him to be where she could not see him. I'm not saying the judging was bad - he was a very nice bloke, gave her every chance to settle, then explained his decision & I agreed, he could not possibly award her if he could not touch her. This particular dog had been successfully shown prior to this & was again after (multi class in group wins including a RUBIG) - she was never thrilled to be handled but tolerated it reasonably most of the time.

A judge doesn't need to give the LGD breeds more time - but there are a few things that can help make handling them much easier for both the judge & the dog (& some judges are very aware of these already):

- approach the owner (rather than the dog) & a quick "hi, how are you going" before handling the dog goes a long way

- be deliberate & confident with your handling, don't be nervous or rushed

- please don't eyeball the dog

- don't lean closely over the dog

- if an LGD draws his head away from you, don't assume he is timid

I agree that if you want to show, you have to play by the rules & the dog is going to have to tolerate being handled - if he won't, then showing is not something either of you are going to enjoy. Having said that, I think expecting them to have a friendly, welcoming attitude is unrealistic & not what the standard requires.

I never said they had to be friendly, what I expect is for them to tolerate it.

No.

You miss the whole nuance of the argument and the protest.

The Maremma does not tolerate.

The Maremma is not a submissive breed, they do not submit to a stranger's expectations.

Either do they submit to the accompanying shepherd.

On the contrary, they work in partnership sharing the role of guardian, notwithstanding, they don't need the shepherd for their role as guadian.

I simply do want to see shows being turned into a circus.

The dogs are presented as they should be, I don't need some patsy of a dog doing endless circus tricks for the convenience of a Judge or Kennel Club or Canine Council that can't be bothered to make the extra effort to accomodate all breeds, maintain a level playing field and apply the rules fairly.

They are my expectations as a paid member of a CCC.

[rebelsquest]

No one said anything about performing endless circus tricks Tralee.

But if a judge cannot lay hands on a certain breed of dog, then maybe that breed should be kept for its working purpose, and not put through the ordeal of showing.

[Tralee]

No one said anything about performing endless circus tricks Tralee.

But if a judge cannot lay hands on a certain breed of dog, then maybe that breed should be kept for its working purpose, and not put through the ordeal of showing.

The Maremma will allow itself to be handled, but it has to be on its terms.

This is particularly acute when dogs (males) are puppies.

A Maremma owner should be astute enough to understand that some shows will have to be withdrawn from, the dogs will sometimes need to be slowly accustomed to being shown.

But judges should not be trying to condemn a dog in order to quickly eliminate it.

Judges should be facilitating, assisiting and developing dogs with their exhibitors, but then those dogs simply just don't get Group, BOB, Class or whatever.

We're not stupid you know.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Tralee

[Are You Serious Jo]

You don't seem to get much enjoyment from showing because all the judges you encounter are incompetent fools, maybe the show ring isn't for you?

[espinay2]

No one said anything about performing endless circus tricks Tralee.

But if a judge cannot lay hands on a certain breed of dog, then maybe that breed should be kept for its working purpose, and not put through the ordeal of showing.

The Maremma will allow itself to be handled, but it has to be on its terms.

This is particularly acute when dogs (males) are puppies.

A Maremma owner should be astute enough to understand that some shows will have to be withdrawn from, the dogs will sometimes need to be slowly accustomed to being shown.

But judges should not be trying to condemn a dog in order to quickly eliminate it.

Judges should be facilitating, assisiting and developing dogs with their exhibitors, but then those dogs simply just don't get Group, BOB, Class or whatever.

We're not stupid you know.

The judge is there to judge, not to train. Training for the show ring happens mostly outside the ring. To be comfortable in the ring the dog has to be made accustomed to being handled in general. Careful management of young dogs through their fear periods (and yes sometimes not entering them for a time when in a fear period) is not confined to maremma or even LGD. The show ring is not about 'tricks' but even just for the dogs sake, putting the work in beforehand so that it is comfortable with what it is being asked to do is a good idea. And it helps you to display the dog in a better way.

Frankly I don't think I have ever come across a judge that works to condemn or eliminate. Judges do have a wide variety of styles and mannerisms but they are there to do a job too. I didn't see the highly respected Itslian judge in the second video I posted being overly cautious in approaching the dog and he seemed to handle it in a manner not dissimilar (and actually in many cases more abruptly) than many judges here.

[Rebanne]

No one said anything about performing endless circus tricks Tralee.

But if a judge cannot lay hands on a certain breed of dog, then maybe that breed should be kept for its working purpose, and not put through the ordeal of showing.

The Maremma will allow itself to be handled, but it has to be on its terms.

Then that is tolerating being handled then.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Rebanne

[zoiboy]

here is a link that *may* interest some. The maremma is 16 moths old

and at his 3 show ever.

[zoiboy]

and here is some video taken at the sydney royal, perhaps the year before last

Most seem to *tolarate* the judgeing quite well.

Edited March 15, 2013 by zoiboy

[BlackJaq]

Most seem to *tolarate* the judgeing quite well.

Are those working dogs or pets/show only?

Not sure what that comment is supposed to achieve, a dog can have a temperament completely unsuitable to work or even uncharacteristic of its breed and still "tolerate" a judge well.

Obviously I cannot comment on the temperament of a dog just from a video like this, I'm just saying. Just because it looks like a brilliant example of breed xyz does not always mean it has a correct working temperament for breed xyz. If they are "only" pets then all bets are off anyways since they are not being selected for working temperament.

Edited March 16, 2013 by BlackJaq

[zoiboy]

no the dogs in the video's are not *just pets* they all are suitable for and perform jobs other than

show dogs. (ie; with stock or poultry).

i am NOT saying that any of these dogs are brilliant excamples of the breed either. Just attempting

to prove that Maremma can be good working dogs and polite in a show situation.

Edited March 16, 2013 by zoiboy

[BlackJaq]

I don't think anybody claimed that they can't? There will always be "softer" and less soft examples of these kind of breeds, but that does not mean that the "sharper" individuals are not correct or all of them are unable to be shown.

ETA: And sometimes it does come down to de-sensitizing dogs and training them to be a little more tolerant in a show situation than they would be at home or out and about. That does not necessarily make it a reflection of the dog's true temperament though, it just means the dog has learnt that in this situation, this is what is required I guess.

Edited March 16, 2013 by BlackJaq

[zoiboy]

I don't think anybody claimed that they can't? There will always be "softer" and less soft examples of these kind of breeds, but that does not mean that the "sharper" individuals are not correct or all of them are unable to be shown.

ETA: And sometimes it does come down to de-sensitizing dogs and training them to be a little more tolerant in a show situation than they would be at home or out and about. That does not necessarily make it a reflection of the dog's true temperament though, it just means the dog has learnt that in this situation, this is what is required I guess.

Ahhh I am not saying that there is only 1 correct temperament at all. A range of softer to harder to down right *strong*

is to be expected. However I am passionate about yhe breed and to have ANYONE touting that fearful is correct in a Maremma is just plain wrong and so far from the reality in general. Shy dogs may well have a place in some working packs but they should not have a place in a breeding program.

[BlackJaq]

I agree that fearfulness in a dog is not a good temperament. I don't really think it is good for any reason. I do find that many people have issues telling a fearful temperament from a confident temperament and also from a temperament that simply holds no value for strangers.

Culling fearful dogs, especially in large and powerful breeds and breeds with guarding purposes from breeding programs is very important in my opinion and no allowances should be made for such dogs in regard to breeding.

Not wanting to be handled by a stranger is not always fear related though ;)

Edited March 16, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Rebanne]

Thanks Zoiboy, enjoyed your videos and understood what you were saying ;-)