Maremmas In Show.

[myValkyrie]

I guess people show them to be judged against their breed standard & to get points towards their CH title, maybe win a fringie - I dunno :) For mine, I no longer show much at all simply because, you're right, they don't like it - I judge my dogs purely on their willingness to work (work ethic if you like), ability to work (courage, judgement & independent decision making), their physical soundness, minimal coat care & their ease of getting along with me & mine. They are brilliant at what they are bred to do - I could care less about show results - but that's me

Good on you. I enjoy showing, my dogs are happy to go along with me. If they disliked it we would all retire to the couch.

*nods whilst pushing Maremma, Anatolian & 2 cats to end of said couch* :laugh:

[Steve]

I wouldn't expect them to be happy but I would expect them to put up with it. I get your point Steve but if the dog won't obey it's owner (handler) and the judge can't lay hands on the dog then the dog can't be judged properly. And we are talking about them in the show ring, not out working.

Yes I know we are talking about the show ring - my comments re working were in response to Espinay asking re behaviour when they are working etc

I would expect if someone were showing a dog of any breed but especially this breed that it would be a definite full on effort to ensure they were accustomed to being treated that way and handled by strangers for exactly that purpose - so it can be judged. There is no denying that this is a challenge but many dogs Ive bred are able to be in situations which ordinarily a working Maremma wouldn't see.We even have one going into a nursing home twice a week where an old lady grabs it by the face and kisses its nose and scrunches her head into his neck to tell him she loves him. He makes no move to back off or try to avoid this contact - happy for her to do anything to him she wants. He happily allows all of them to hug him and pat him but take him back home and he is back to a working dog. This is because he sees both as normal - he has always done this since he was 8 weeks old. I have people and especially children coming and going all day and if I allow the stranger up onto my porch any dog on my property is happy to be touched and handled because they know this to be normal - yet the same dogs are completely different with anyone I dont invite onto the porch. So while I agree with you that the judge needs to lay hands on it and it needs to be open to being handled and judged by strangers and this dog clearly wasn't comfortable with what was happening - my point is that I saw the reaction as normal Maremma behaviour when they are out of their comfort zone,when confronted with something they are not used to though in order for it to do what is required of it the owner needs to work more at making the dog feel that what is happening is normal - rather than making too many excuses for it not to do as required because its a breed trait. Not sure I'm explaining it properly but Tralee is right its normal Maremma behaviour but I believe that if its going to attend shows and be expected to be handled then that's exactly what it should be used to and trained to do.

I could add that in other words, some Maremma do present with a 'therapy dog' temperament but it in not the correct temperament. I have had an extremely gregarious dog who was unequalled in her dog friendliness and people friendliness. However, this meant she lacked other desirable traits. She would work with foul against foxes but not thieves.

It really isn't rocket science.

What we saw with Anna Albrigo's dog, and she has bred dozens of National BOB's and International BIS's, is the Judge attempting to examine any other dog but not a Maremma. This is extremely frustating and has caused myself and others great consternation, time, and money in defending our dogs that are reported for aggression, in and out of the ring, only to be ultimately found to be without fault.

There are two possible outcomes.

The first would be a tragedy.

The Maremma is distorted into a dog with a therapy type temperament just to accomadate the show ring.

Or, the Maremma is judged correctly as aloof and wary of strangers, alert but not aggressive.

It really is simple, if the Maremma is to be judged fairly, then it must be allowed to remain unsubmissive, and to preserve its independent role as a guardian.

I believe you can have a Maremma with a therapy type behaviour when its working in a therapy type situation and that it should revert back to keeping out thieves when it returns to its property and what ever species it is working with. That dog goes into that place every few days and has done since it was a baby but its a completely different dog when its at home working the goats where it is aloof and wary of strangers. That therapy type temperament is what they use when they are telling sheep or chooks or other dogs they live with they wont hurt them and allow them to snuggle up with them.

Everything you do to take it into the show ring or even the vet is distorted - the way those dogs look is nowhere near like a working Maremma looks, they would much prefer never to leave their property at all let alone do everything from the minute they get in the car to get there until they get back home again. Aloof and wary of strangers doesnt mean that it should never know that when its in that situation how it is expected to behave or what is normal when it is in that situation in my opinion. If you have made the decision that your dog is going to go into this situation,that you will shampoo it and fluff it up and drag it around on a lead and have it examined by strangers in unknown environments with other dogs coming and going etc whilst its in that situation, It shouldn't be a too hard ask to have the dog used to being handled in that situation and revert to being aloof and ready to take on a thief when its off lead and on its own turf.

Allowing a judge to handle it when its on a lead in that situation with its owner beside it is different to allowing the judge to come onto its property near its charges or try to handle it when its not on lead.

One of the things I love most about the breed is its ability to determine very quickly what is normal and if that sort of life and experience is going to be normal then the dog needs to know that and act accordingly when its on lead and off its own property. However, the person judging should also know how to approach it and go about handling it

because if is a well bred Maremma any behaviour it strikes which is out of the ordinary of what its been trained to accept as normal will throw in a wild card.

[Steve]

For my 2 cents worth, the attributes rewarded in the showring - particularly the sweet, bouncy, outgoing temperament & the big , fluffy glamorous coat - are not necessarily attributes you appreciate in a good working dog. IMHO the Maremma as a breed is fortunate that it has, at present, a solid future performing it's original function & doing a great job - if in producing that, the downside is a dog that is not particularly suited to showing & being handled by strangers, I'm good with that

Then why show this breed? If a judge can't touch them, then how can they be judged? It's a hands on sport. How long should a Maremma be given in the ring to make up it's mind if it will allow another person to approach it? The Maremma wasn't the only dog to react in such a fashion, commentators also remarked on other dogs being overawed. Should this allowance be given to other breeds who also would prefer not to be examined by a stranger. Maybe Maremma's shouldn't be shown at all and should be left in the paddock to work?

I didn't say don't show them - I simply pointed out the difference between attributes that assist the dog's function & attributes that are rewarded in the showring. Nor did I say they couldn't be touched - but that they would not welcome it.

But if they are clearly unsuited to the current show format, and it seems they are, then why do people show them? Why do something that is against everything you say the dog (breed) stands for - so to speak? It would be so stressful for them.

I guess people show them to be judged against their breed standard & to get points towards their CH title, maybe win a fringie - I dunno :) For mine, I no longer show much at all simply because, you're right, they don't like it - I judge my dogs purely on their willingness to work (work ethic if you like), ability to work (courage, judgement & independent decision making), their physical soundness, minimal coat care & their ease of getting along with me & mine. They are brilliant at what they are bred to do - I could care less about show results - but that's me

Same for me but again its about what's normal for the dog and what it is accustomed to. Dogs which go into the ring are trained for that from baby puppy hood.Part of that should be being handled by a judge in my opinion.

I don't show mine and I select for work - all but one of mine are working with poultry or sheep but I still want to know Im taking into account the standard so its good when someone takes one of mine and it ends up a champ. Id like to think that in this breed we could have the best of both worlds - that there isnt a distinction between a dog which is a conformation champ and one which is a fantastic worker so Id hope that breeders are still selecting for both - problem is some trends in the ring and some dogs which are awarded have the potential for the breed to go the way many breeds have with a vast difference between a show dog and a working dog .

I agree in principal with what Tralee is saying because there is a real danger that as more people show them and breed them who dont work them the more risk there is that

behaviours which are seen to be better for the ring and or companionship will be selected for and the intrinsic qualities of the breed temperament will be compromised.

Sadly though its not just the temperament which is showing signs of changing for the ring and the fact that some of the examples shown are coming from Italy doesn't change that.

[Tralee]

As I said, if we can put our biases aside and accept what others who know more say, then the Maremma might get a fair go.

so you are saying the Maremma must be judged differently to every other breed of dog entered in the show? How is that fair?

All the winners you have put up, are you saying the ones who do not let a judge go over them, they have the correct temperament, the ones who will tolerate an examination have incorrect temperament? Which is which?

Noat at all.

All breeds should be judged to the standard which means all dogs should be judged differently.

The suggestion that one size fits all is absurd.

There are different judges and different judging styles but I have had more than my share of judges who deliberately spook the dogs, rush at them, lunge or flick their wrist behind their ears. What is that about, but not really a mystery.

The Maremma will allow judges to put their hands on them, the therapy type temperaments will but a dog who is diffident with the correct wariness of strangers will too but only on their terms.

[Tralee]

For my 2 cents worth, the attributes rewarded in the showring - particularly the sweet, bouncy, outgoing temperament & the big , fluffy glamorous coat - are not necessarily attributes you appreciate in a good working dog. IMHO the Maremma as a breed is fortunate that it has, at present, a solid future performing it's original function & doing a great job - if in producing that, the downside is a dog that is not particularly suited to showing & being handled by strangers, I'm good with that

Then why show this breed? If a judge can't touch them, then how can they be judged? It's a hands on sport. How long should a Maremma be given in the ring to make up it's mind if it will allow another person to approach it? The Maremma wasn't the only dog to react in such a fashion, commentators also remarked on other dogs being overawed. Should this allowance be given to other breeds who also would prefer not to be examined by a stranger. Maybe Maremma's shouldn't be shown at all and should be left in the paddock to work?

I didn't say don't show them - I simply pointed out the difference between attributes that assist the dog's function & attributes that are rewarded in the showring. Nor did I say they couldn't be touched - but that they would not welcome it.

But if they are clearly unsuited to the current show format, and it seems they are, then why do people show them? Why do something that is against everything you say the dog (breed) stands for - so to speak? It would be so stressful for them.

Well how is that fair?

Dog shows are not about giving judges a nice day out and a picnic.

Judges should make the effort and many do.

[Tralee]

Over the last forty years the Italians have brought the Maremma back from almost tragic and wayward breeding practices.

Some of the dogs being produced in Italy are absolutely astounding and make my eyes water every time I view them.

Italian Maremmas

But the Italians have restored the standard including the temperament of their dogs and within the statistical distribution of temperaments many dogs in Italy can be seen being restrained, both in the ring and on the podium. In other words, the Maremma temperament is not a reason to exclude the Maremma from the Show ring but on the contrary, the correct temperament is a cause to promote these dogs to BOB and BIS.

Finally, Anna Albrigo wants to add Crufts to her impressive list of BIS at World Dog Shows.

Firstly, she will need to put up better dogs. She has produced other dogs that are much more impressive.

Secondly, the British will also need to relinquish their wish for the Maremma to morph into a temperament that specifically suits Crufts, and Crufts' type dog shows.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Tralee

[Aziah]

This is such an odd thread...why the OP continually refuses to answer questions (such as what the point of this thread is) is just beyond me (and clearly many others)!

ETA: I am enjoying the photos though :)

Edited March 13, 2013 by Aziah

[Are You Serious Jo]

I would be most unhappy to be beaten in the ring by a dog that the judge couldn't actually judge. It seems pretty simple to me, if your dog won't allow handling then don't show it. There are some people showing Anatolians that do quite well and their dogs let the judge go over them, and they have a much stronger working temperament than Maremmas. I can't watch the video but sounds like the dog is pulling away from the judge?

[zoiboy]

I would be most unhappy to be beaten in the ring by a dog that the judge couldn't actually judge. It seems pretty simple to me, if your dog won't allow handling then don't show it. There are some people showing Anatolians that do quite well and their dogs let the judge go over them, and they have a much stronger working temperament than Maremmas. I can't watch the video but sounds like the dog is pulling away from the judge?

As a Maremma owner and occasional excibitor I agree with you Reverend Jo. If a Maremma is to be shown it has to play by th rules, IE: be clean, well brushed and well mannered. I expect my dogs to work well but I do not expect them to be either overtly shy (as was the dog in the clip of Crufts) or overtly and uselesly aggressive. A well tempered Maremma should be calm, watchful and self assured. I liken it to having a personal body guard, the last thing you want is a body guard who will shoot any one or any thing that is in a 15 foot radius. The same of a Maremma.

Oh I have titled 4, all had nice in group wins and an in show win for one bitch. 2 of these also have temperament test certificates from he testing that Carl Hergisterder did when he was out here teaching judges how to do this testing.

All that said, I have dogs that I would no more show than fly in the air as they are not suited at all to showing.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Maybe tralee you could talk to zoiboy a bit more about showing because you seem to be having some difficulties that zoiboy doesn't seem to be having. I think it's unrealistic, not to mention very unfair, to expect our judges to judge a dog but not be allowed to touch it. Since the other LGD breeds seem to manage being shown and retain their working ability it obviously can be done. I would actually put in a formal complaint if I saw a judge award a dog without touching it, how can they judge to the standard if they can't actually feel what they are supposed to be feeling?

[espinay2]

From the FCI Regulations:

( http://www.fci.be/ci...10-annex-en.pdf )

" CANNOT BE JUDGED . This rating is to be given to any dog which does not move, constantly jumps up and down on its handler or tries to get out of the ring, makes it impossible to assess the gait and the movement or avoids constantly to be examined by the judge and makes it impossible to inspect teeth, anatomy and structure, tail or testicles."

This is the Temperament Test used by the Maremma Club (CPMA) in Italy (note it is translated by google so some of the wording goes a little strange): TMC - Test Morphological Character

This is interesting: http://www.cpma.it/userfiles/Relazione%201'Meeting%20Internazionale%20english%20version%20FINALE.pdf (wierd that link wont work for me once loaded so doc now attached)

Maremma International Meeting.pdf

Edited March 14, 2013 by espinay2

[Are You Serious Jo]

Italy has spoken and we all know how much tralee loves the Italians and their maremmas :laugh:

[Tralee]

From the FCI Regulations:

( http://www.fci.be/ci...10-annex-en.pdf )

" CANNOT BE JUDGED . This rating is to be given to any dog which does not move, constantly jumps up and down on its handler or tries to get out of the ring, makes it impossible to assess the gait and the movement or avoids constantly to be examined by the judge and makes it impossible to inspect teeth, anatomy and structure, tail or testicles."

This is the Temperament Test used by the Maremma Club (CPMA) in Italy (note it is translated by google so some of the wording goes a little strange): TMC - Test Morphological Character

This is interesting: http://www.cpma.it/userfiles/Relazione%201'Meeting%20Internazionale%20english%20version%20FINALE.pdf (wierd that link wont work for me once loaded so doc now attached)

Well, its very easy to take selective sections and try to make a case, but nowhere is the term 'inspect' defined.

For example, many dogs' mouths are shown by the handler and it makes no mention that hands must be laid on the dog so that the judge must open the dogs mouth.

I could equally cite a selective section:

DISQUALIFIED must be awarded to a dog which does not correspond to the type required by

the breed standard; which shows a behaviour clearly not in line with its standard

If the dog does not show a temperamnet that is diffident and wary of strangers then the temperament is not suited to the standard.

I think you miss my point.

Maremma will allow themselves to be handled. I just had one at the Vet this arvo. But I made it quite clear to the Vet when greeting the dog not to rush, lunge or overly push the dog when patting. He then waited and let the dog approach and invite the interaction that followed. Beautiful dog, beautiful temperament.

See, easy as pie.

Each dog, in all breeds, must be examined to the breed standard in both conformation and temperament.

Otherwise dog shows are just a circus.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Tralee

[Rebanne]

I think you miss my point.

Maremma will allow themselves to be handled. I just had one at the the this arvo. But I made it quite clear to the Vet when greeting the dog not to rush, lunge or overly push the dog when patting. He then waited and let the dog approach and invite the interaction that folowed. Beautiful dog, beautiful temperament.

See, easy as pie.

Each dog, in all breeds, must be examined to the breed standard in both conformation and temperament.

Otherwise dog shows are just a circus.

and, in the show ring, just how many extra minutes do we allow a maremma to make up it's mind whether to allow a judge to examine it or not? And should the same courtesy be extended to other dogs/breeds?

[Tralee]

I think you miss my point.

Maremma will allow themselves to be handled. I just had one at the the this arvo. But I made it quite clear to the Vet when greeting the dog not to rush, lunge or overly push the dog when patting. He then waited and let the dog approach and invite the interaction that folowed. Beautiful dog, beautiful temperament.

See, easy as pie.

Each dog, in all breeds, must be examined to the breed standard in both conformation and temperament.

Otherwise dog shows are just a circus.

and, in the show ring, just how many extra minutes do we allow a maremma to make up it's mind whether to allow a judge to examine it or not? And should the same courtesy be extended to other dogs/breeds?

It doesn't involve extra minutes at all.

It simply means not rushing the dog, not lunging at the dog, not flicking the wrist behind the ears and not setting out to spook the dog.

All of these deliberate and unintentioned acts I have witnessed first hand.

I could tell you about one particular married pair who deliberately orchestrated an unrelenting tirade on my dogs over a full weekend of showing, all witnessed by another all breed judge, and the two of them then went off and laughed about it to another Maremma breeder.

You can put up objections as much as you like but the dogs are not going to submit to inconsiderate approaches.

So how is that fair?

Edited March 14, 2013 by Tralee

[Trisven13]

All the winners you have put up, are you saying the ones who do not let a judge go over them, they have the correct temperament, the ones who will tolerate an examination have incorrect temperament? Which is which?

My two cents here Rebanne....

Recently at Canberra Royal I was talking to the couple who show the Azawakhs and they said that they should NOT be handled by the Judge ever and that if a Judge puts their hands on the dog they should expect a bad reaction and that they aren't judged in this way overseas. They also said that the judges should know never to wear a hat whilst judge Azawakhs. From what I've read of Azawakhs this seems reasonable and one would assume that those who own this breed expect, accept and like this. Does this mean that they shouldn't be judged and exhibited OR does it mean that this particular breed should be judged differently to others in the hound group?

I'm no expert and, as you know, don't profess to be :laugh: but these people seemed to be very, very knowledgeable of their breed and said that this is how they are judged OS. I actually spent quite bit of time talking to them. If we're going to have these different breeds here in the country shouldn't we judge them as they are traditionally judged rather than expecting them to conform to what a, for example, labrador would accept? If we do expect that aren't we diluting their very essence?

[WreckitWhippet]

So if we are going to expect and accept that they be judged differently to other breed, are we also going to accept those that lunge and lash out at passers by and other dogs ? do we just write that off as the Mareema temperament ? or should they be reported for being aggressive ?

Personally I don't think that any dog , regardless of it's breed, belong in or around the ring if it lunges and carries on and a judge can't get their hands on it and judge within the normal judging parameters .

ETA: If they want to be judged by breed experts and judged differntly to other breeds, then that it what a "specialty" is for.

Edited March 14, 2013 by WreckitWhippet

[Trisven13]

I don't have the answer for that as I, personally, could never own a breed that wouldn't happily accept it BUT I also accept that people have different views and are equally passionate about breeds that don't allow it. Should they be exhibited? I don't know BUT I do think that it is unreasonable to expect all breeds to behave equally and when dogs are exhibited at a dog show that is pretty much what we're asking.

[WreckitWhippet]

I think that perhaps exhibition is not for every breed or every dog of a certain breed. The owners and custodians of such breeds need to recognise this.

[Trisven13]

I think that perhaps exhibition is not for every breed or every dog of a certain breed. The owners and custodians of such breeds need to recognise this.

Yes I would agree with this if they are all to be judged in the same way, which is what we currently expect.