Maremmas In Show.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Where pyrs traditionally left in the paddock alone dogs? Did they have reason to leave their flocks? I can see why they would have an off duty mode if they weren't full time guardians.

[BJean]

Let's be clear about guardian capacity and capability, and what this means wrt the instinctive guardian dog, cf the dual pet guardian show dog.

I dont know what the Maremma and Pyrenean ultimate guardian response is (and perhaps this is the point of difference), but I do know the type of Anatolia and Central Asia dog that you can put your hand in fire (as we say) the dog will not back down, do not have an off duty switch or 'stay at home guardian demon'. These dogs do not go to shows.

If Anatolian and Central Asia do not have individuals who will not back down, AND have an off duty switch ie accept intrusions at shows, then Maremma and Pyrenean do not either. The dogs that go to shows are not in the same instinctive response category as the former. Intolerance and reactivity and the self assured nerve to assert their will over a situation are innate. Full kudos to the show maremma, pyrenean, anatolian etc but lets not pretend their full stop guardian peers, also don a show cape and have a stay at home guardian demon. It is at odds with everything this type of dog is, and the expectations required of them.

Edited December 27, 2012 by lilli

[espinay2]

Where pyrs traditionally left in the paddock alone dogs? Did they have reason to leave their flocks? I can see why they would have an off duty mode if they weren't full time guardians.

Summers with the shepherds up in the mountains then winters in the lower villages and plains (with transhumance in between). So yes, they needed to be adaptable and go from isolation to the closer living of farm and village life when sheep were in barns or were grazing vineyards etc. Note they were also traditionally used to guard castles and forts (such as Carcasonne) and to discriminate between 'vagrant' and those who were 'ok', and were for a while the darlings of the French royal court after the Dauphin fell in love with a young dog he met near Lourdes.

The World Winner at the World Show when it was held in France not long ago was a working bitch from the Pyrenees (the breeder is a traditional goat farmer high in the mountains). It is actually quite traditional for farmers and shepherds to show their Pyreneans in France and eve3n now a number of those that exhibit at the RACP Nationale in Argeles-Gazost pull dogs straight out of the fields to attend the shows. Here is a postcard from Cauterets in the Haute Pyrenees from around 1900 - Shepherds showing their dogs off on market day.

Yes, there are sharper individuals (and have seen a few dustups at European shows though this tends to be dog to dog agression in mature males) but I would suggest, based on lilli's comments that the Pyrenean may have been bred with slightly different intent and to have that off territory off switch which it seems some of the other LGD breeds may not.

A couple of videos too which show Pyreneans at work and the discrimination they also generally show in this context (there will always be exceptions of course, but this is the accepted temperament for the breed):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=67ObjymUif8

Edited December 27, 2012 by espinay2

[BJean]

Summers with the shepherds up in the mountains then winters in the lower villages and plains (with transhumance in between). So yes, they needed to be adaptable and go from isolation to the closer living of farm and village life.Note they were also used to guard castles and forts (such as Carcasonne)and were for a while the darlings of the French royal court.

Wouldn't a guard dog of a castle or fort be required to hold it's ground with physical force? ie: to step up unassisted and against the human as an adversary? I do not see this in the Pyreneans at shows :) And its probably a good thing, time and needs pass. Maybe 100 - 200 years of selective breeding has done a lot, maybe the less reactive Pyreneans were chosen because they were naturally more subordinate to people. So they could accept and be docile enough for Market Day and guarded with bark and intimidation not active confrontation. Maybe the dogs taken to Market Day in 1900 were not the 'best' guardian on the home front. ie the dog you call upon to be by your side if your life is at risk.

What was the population of Pyreneans like after WWI and WWII?

ETA: re bold part, just read your comment above - yes it makes sense and the Pyreneans at shows are behaving exactly as they should as their response is developed to have an on / off but also the Pyrenean response is not as combative :)

Edited December 27, 2012 by lilli

[BJean]

Yes, there are sharper individuals (and have seen a few dustups at European shows though this tends to be dog to dog agression in mature males) but I would suggest, based on lilli's comments that the Pyrenean may have been bred with slightly different intent and to have that off territory off switch which it seems some of the other LGD breeds may not.

woops I missed this :) Yes, when we show the Anatolian in Vic, there is one male and one female we have to keep separate and need a lot of distance between.

I do not have a central asia adult that is suitable for show ie acceptance of handling by the judge and close quarters of other dogs and curious onlookers. As a puppy/junior they were okay but not on maturity.

Edited December 27, 2012 by lilli

[Steve]

Its all about what you need from them. Traditionally Maremma would go up into the mountains and guard the sheep sometimes alone sometimes with the shephard but they were also expected to behave themselves and have manners when they came down the mountain and sleep near the house. Ive bred a couple of champs which have been excellent at the job they do. Worked in the paddock all week and come out and seem to enjoy the show scene on week ends and enjoyed human approaches and company . As soon as they get home they go back with the goats.I think if the goats had gone to the show with them that the reaction would have been different as anyone approaching would be seen as a potential threat to the goats on or off the property but with nothing to guard there's nothing to guard. still they would bark not bite.

To date the bulk of those showing them in Australia have also worked them so selection has been mainly about how they work as well as how they look and I wouldn't like to see that change and I think its changing. Personally I think its a lesser accomplishment if the dog wins a conformation championship but doesn't work too and whilst the standard is important to me in my breeding program no point for me having one thats looking the part but cant work well.

Here in their own paddock with their sheep or chickens there is no off and I don't expect an off from them and they yell at anyone approaching but when I take them off the property or away from what they guard they are different dogs and in the main docile. They are not supposed to be aggressive - yelling at you to keep away from the gate is different to jumping the fence and ripping your arms off even though they can and Id never expect that from a Maremma.

[BJean]

Its all about what you need from them. Traditionally Maremma would go up into the mountains and guard the sheep sometimes alone sometimes with the shephard but they were also expected to behave themselves and have manners when they came down the mountain and sleep near the house. Ive bred a couple of champs which have been excellent at the job they do. Worked in the paddock all week and come out and seem to enjoy the show scene on week ends and enjoyed human approaches and company . As soon as they get home they go back with the goats.I think if the goats had gone to the show with them that the reaction would have been different as anyone approaching would be seen as a potential threat to the goats on or off the property but with nothing to guard there's nothing to guard. still they would bark not bite.

To date the bulk of those showing them in Australia have also worked them so selection has been mainly about how they work as well as how they look and I wouldn't like to see that change and I think its changing. Personally I think its a lesser accomplishment if the dog wins a conformation championship but doesn't work too and whilst the standard is important to me in my breeding program no point for me having one thats looking the part but cant work well.

Here in their own paddock with their sheep or chickens there is no off and I don't expect an off from them and they yell at anyone approaching but when I take them off the property or away from what they guard they are different dogs and in the main docile. They are not supposed to be aggressive - yelling at you to keep away from the gate is different to jumping the fence and ripping your arms off even though they can and Id never expect that from a Maremma.

Some of the Maremma I have seen at shows do bark and carry on but that is what I expect of them.

Anatolian and Central Asian tend to bark less. Usually its a stare and a snarl and then its on.

Employed Anatolian and Central Asian guardian dogs generally guard what they are on or live in and therefore anything in that area. They also have their personal space and there is a perimeter unknowns cannot enter. This perimeter exists everywhere all the time.

Edited December 27, 2012 by lilli

[espinay2]

Summers with the shepherds up in the mountains then winters in the lower villages and plains (with transhumance in between). So yes, they needed to be adaptable and go from isolation to the closer living of farm and village life.Note they were also used to guard castles and forts (such as Carcasonne)and were for a while the darlings of the French royal court.

Wouldn't a guard dog of a castle or fort be required to hold it's ground with physical force? ie: to step up unassisted and against the human as an adversary? I do not see this in the Pyreneans at shows :) And its probably a good thing, time and needs pass. Maybe 100 - 200 years of selective breeding has done a lot, maybe the less reactive Pyreneans were chosen because they were naturally more subordinate to people. So they could accept and be docile enough for Market Day and guarded with bark and intimidation not active confrontation. Maybe the dogs taken to Market Day in 1900 were not the 'best' guardian on the home front. ie the dog you call upon to be by your side if your life is at risk.

What was the population of Pyreneans like after WWI and WWII?

ETA: re bold part, just read your comment above - yes it makes sense and the Pyreneans at shows are behaving exactly as they should as their response is developed to have an on / off but also the Pyrenean response is not as combative :)

Pyreneans have been known for centuries as being able to employ 'necessary force' which means they only engage if that is necessary. They warn first. Beleive me, when they engage, they DO engage (and I have some great footage of Pyrs taking on a rather determined bear 4 times their size in Norway - incidentally these are relations of my own dogs). But they don't engage generally unless it is called for. They have also been known through the centuries for being very discriminatory with travellers and others writing of their uncanny ability to detect those with bad intentions from 'travellers' to the daughters suitor! The castles at Foix and Lourdes also used Pyreneans and were known there for this ability to discriminate and 'hunt down' brigands and thieves. The reports of the Dauphin falling in love with a Patou and taking it back to live at the Louvre are from 1675. More dogs followed this one. So, a different history to your own LGD - no less working ability when it comes to protecting their charges, but just used differently.

Re the population after and before the world wars - yes, they suffered greatly and with the help of some very determined fanciers and breeders, the breed underwent what is referred to as the 'reconstitution' (lots of history and detail to read on this that I can point you to but wont go into here) which was done in conjunction with the mountain shepherds and farmers.

Edited December 27, 2012 by espinay2

[Tralee]

An interesting discussion.

A few points I can bring to the fore.

The Maremma is traditionally a shepherdesses' dog. The title: "I Cani del Pastori Maremanno-Abruzesse" means; The Dogs of the Shepherdesses etc.

So, their rearing would have endowed them with the quality of being less aggressive than if they were handled by males.

Secondly, similar to the second YouTube clip by espinay2, the dogs were corraled at night with their humans. They could not have, and would not want, 'combat' type dogs in the corral.

Also, while Maremma have been bred for over 2000 years to protect the lambs from the wolf, bear and thief, the correct temperament is alert but not aggressive. The Maremma is a last resort responder. They warn by barking, chase off by rushing the fence, and even if they need to bite they will nip to tell the interlopper to push off. However, I would not like to see what happens when an intruder ignores the Maremmas demands.

Lastly, during WWII the Germans shot them on sight because they were so ferocious as guarddogs.

It is important to also consider that there is rumoured that the Americans have raised their dogs to be too aggressive while the British have brought their dogs up to be too placid. This I think is steve's point. The true character of the Maremma can be, and is being, compromised.

Steve, I have yet to follow up your query about whether the dog on the podium is working. But I know that the question: "Is the dog working" is a constant refrain with you. However, I don't doubt, worry, or fear that the Maremma are at risk of losing the central trait for which they were originally bred. It is nevertheless, an issue that needs to be continually raised.

Here is Anna Albrigo again, with yet another World Champion from a few years back.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Tralee

[mixeduppup]

An interesting discussion.

A few points I can bring to the fore.

The Maremma is traditionally a shepherdesses' dog. The title: "I Cani del Pastori Maremanno-Abruzesse" means; The Dogs of the Shepherdesses etc.

So, their rearing would have endowed them with the quality of being less aggressive than if they were handled by males.

That's kinda sexist.

[Clyde]

However, I don't doubt, worry, or fear that the Maremma are at risk of losing the central trait for which they were originally bred.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. You dont doubt that Maremma are losing their trait, or you don't worry about it?

[espinay2]

As we were talking a bit about Pyrs in the show ring as well as Maremma, I thought some may enjoy this video of the 2012 Nationale d'Elevage in Argeles-Gazost.

This is the annual Pyrenean breeds show in France which is held in the Pyrenees Mountains.

Some lovely examples of Pyrs shown:

[Tralee]

However, I don't doubt, worry, or fear that the Maremma are at risk of losing the central trait for which they were originally bred.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. You dont doubt that Maremma are losing their trait, or you don't worry about it?

Hmmm.

I can see how that could be confusing.

On reflection, I don't doubt that they are losing their traits if the American and British cases are to be believed.

But it happened here in Australia as well.

The standard in conformation and temperament went right off when the entrepeurs got hold of them and bred anything with anything.

Notwithstanding, the Maremma are thriving in Italy and have very competent people controlling them.

Despite what the odd visitor to Italy might say, the Italian dogs are world class.

They are world beaters in fact, both in the show ring and in the paddock.

so I don't worry or fear that they are at any risk.

I don't go much on pride, but I am proud to have some Maremma in my care.

[Tralee]

An interesting discussion.

A few points I can bring to the fore.

The Maremma is traditionally a shepherdesses' dog. The title: "I Cani del Pastori Maremanno-Abruzesse" means; The Dogs of the Shepherdesses etc.

So, their rearing would have endowed them with the quality of being less aggressive than if they were handled by males.

That's kinda sexist.

No its not.

Its feminist, if anything

[Steve]

An interesting discussion.

A few points I can bring to the fore.

The Maremma is traditionally a shepherdesses' dog. The title: "I Cani del Pastori Maremanno-Abruzesse" means; The Dogs of the Shepherdesses etc.

So, their rearing would have endowed them with the quality of being less aggressive than if they were handled by males.

That's kinda sexist.

No its not.

Its feminist, if anything

I might agree if you had said selected by males rather than handled by males. One is nature the other nurture.

[Tralee]

An interesting discussion.

A few points I can bring to the fore.

The Maremma is traditionally a shepherdesses' dog. The title: "I Cani del Pastori Maremanno-Abruzesse" means; The Dogs of the Shepherdesses etc.

So, their rearing would have endowed them with the quality of being less aggressive than if they were handled by males.

That's kinda sexist.

No its not.

Its feminist, if anything

I might agree if you had said selected by males rather than handled by males. One is nature the other nurture.

'tis a good point that you make there, steve.

But it would be inclusive, I might have thought.

I missed posting this earlier this week but, no biggy really.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Tralee

[Tralee]

Winning, it seems, is not uncommon when a balanced view is taken and the dogs equally have merit.

[Steve]

Well thats a very nice room but better elaborate so we know what room it is, and why they got the trophies so we have a clue what it is you're trying to tell us.

[Tralee]

Allevamento di Arajani

Winning, it seems, is not uncommon when a balanced view is taken and the dogs equally have merit.

Well thats a very nice room but better elaborate so we know what room it is, and why they got the trophies so we have a clue what it is you're trying to tell us.

My apologies for the delay, but some people on facebook don't delete their old photos before they post new ones and I've had to scroll through hundreds of pics and many albums to find the original post.

Allevamento di Arajani

My admiration for this Italian Breeder is highly held and is constantly growing.

However, I suspect that Breeding in Italy is business based.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

well here's a turn up.

Judges in Italy, at least, do not touch Maremma when shown in the ring.

Quite clearly, this needs to be addressed in this country.