Look What They Have Done To Our Dogs.

[Greylvr]

Thanks Greylvr. I suppose this was just a few years ago, and it was a registered bulldog? Sorry you had the experience.

yes and yes it was a registered bull dog from show parents I know it happens but just really opened my eyes up to the breed and I still think they are very cute :) and I know there are good breeders out there looking to improve them but without drastic changes in looks I dont see it possible and if you did those changes would they still win in the show ring and if they cant would the good breeders still push forward? Tricky situation

[megan_]

I'm on your side Jed, really.

My comment about the "dog world" isn't about individual breeders. It is about the PB world as a whole uniting to stamp out bad practices and promote PB's. Unless this happens it will be the end of the PB world.

[~Anne~]

I've seen several Pugs eyes pop out. Brachy skull and all, it happens.

I also know that the pug as a breed do not tolerate high temperatures. It simply cannot be denied. Again, brachy skull. The equation is simple: The flatter the face becomes, the 'more 'cobby' (such a neutral way to describe it, isn't it?) the shape of the pug becomes, the more issues will be seen with breathing and prolapsed eyes, amongst other things.

Thankfully there are a handful of pug breeders who understand this but it is a complex and arduous task to make any real change. Stand up and say change is needed and you'll get slam dunked. It's a sad reality. You need a a coat of armour and very broad shoulders to succeed.

[Jed]

Thanks Greylvr. I suppose this was just a few years ago, and it was a registered bulldog? Sorry you had the experience.

yes and yes it was a registered bull dog from show parents I know it happens but just really opened my eyes up to the breed and I still think they are very cute :) and I know there are good breeders out there looking to improve them but without drastic changes in looks I dont see it possible and if you did those changes would they still win in the show ring and if they cant would the good breeders still push forward? Tricky situation

Maybe Bullbreed lover will answer. There seem to be some slightly different BB in England. Someone in UK who is into English shows etc on my facebook has one, interested to see how that turns out.

I think the problem for a breeder is that you have x problem and it is difficult to eradicate, because most of the dogs in the breed have the same problem. I also think that there are a few breeds - bulldogs, pugs are two, that are not for the faint hearted.

I don't think I would ever have enough experience or expertise to breed a correct pug or bulldog. I think too, that many people who are new to breeding love one of these breeds and embark on breeding them, without fully understanding the extension of the standard.

With all brachy breeds, the nose is short, but in each breed, there are compensatory factors - large wide mouth, large open nostrils, nose roll etc which mean the dog is fine. But the trick is getting it all together in the one dog. And if a lot of the other dogs of the breed are incorrect your chances of getting it right have just gone down the gurgler.

Melzelwelza

I agree. The group that will see the demise of the pedigree dog is the pedigree dog world that consistently excuses terrible breeding practices in some breeds, not the AR nuts (can't stand them either and don't deny their aim but they won't be the ones that achieve it.).

Wrong. That's what AR wants you to think.

And you could elucidate the "terrible breeding practices" of which you speak?

[Alkhe]

I've seen several Pugs eyes pop out. Brachy skull and all, it happens.

I also know that the pug as a breed do not tolerate high temperatures. It simply cannot be denied. Again, brachy skull. The equation is simple: The flatter the face becomes, the 'more 'cobby' (such a neutral way to describe it, isn't it?) the shape of the pug becomes, the more issues will be seen with breathing and prolapsed eyes, amongst other things.

Thankfully there are a handful of pug breeders who understand this but it is a complex and arduous task to make any real change. Stand up and say change is needed and you'll get slam dunked. It's a sad reality. You need a a coat of armour and very broad shoulders to succeed.

And you're a pug person, aren't you? See, why can't more people be realistic and acknowledge that are some breeds that have various issues! It doesn't have to mean you're anti-purebred, anti-breeder, anti-breeding, anti-whatever.

Denial that there are issues is the kind of thing that makes your average person on the street think that purebred dogs and breeders are idiots/cruel/etc, and avoid them. I'm not even a breeder and I spend a lot of time talking to people at the park, at work, wherever I go, about the virtues of purebred dogs. But that also involves going yes, there are some dogs that are just poor souls that shouldnt' have to live, their lives are obviously just so uncomfortable. That's not animal rights hoo ha, it's common sense, and empathy.

[Jed]

I'm on your side Jed, really.

My comment about the "dog world" isn't about individual breeders. It is about the PB world as a whole uniting to stamp out bad practices and promote PB's. Unless this happens it will be the end of the PB world.

Those most critical of purebred breeders are purebred breeders. Those most likely to report a registered breeder to council/RSPCA are registered breeders.

And, yes, it will be AR who finish purebred dogs. Banning pitbulls, having tail docking banned, banning first degree matings - all at the feet of AR. Genocide of an entire breed; a law which caused about 1/3 of the breeders of those breeds to walk away.

Megan, I don't have a side. I used to, but now I don't care. I do my own thing and enjoy that. When the dogs are finished I will be dead or nearly so, and I wont care.

People should accept that there will always be dogs who are not 100% no matter how much care went into breeding them. There will always be breeders who care more for fringies than health, but they are very much in the minority.

A breeder who has arguably bred more champions than any other breeder in Aus, heavily linebreeds, and the dogs are as healthy as can be, living into their teens, so fringies and health can marry.

Alkhe

Denial that there are issues is the kind of thing that makes your average person on the street think that purebred dogs and breeders are idiots/cruel/etc, and avoid them. I'm not even a breeder and I spend a lot of time talking to people at the park, at work, wherever I go, about the virtues of purebred dogs. But that also involves going yes, there are some dogs that are just poor souls that shouldnt' have to live, their lives are obviously just so uncomfortable. That's not animal rights hoo ha, it's common sense, and empathy.

Nobody is denying there are issues - the problem is that people believe the majority of the breeds are affected, the majority of breeders don't care or can't or wont fix the problems.

Of course it is animal rights hoo ha. Began in US, migrated to Aust, PDE told the world that the majority of pb dogs were unhealthy.

According to (??), I own a breed with a plethora of life endangering problems, and I am supposed to fix them. I am obviously hiding my head in the sand, I can't see any of these problems in my dogs. One has ear problems, she is 12, but her ear canals were narrow.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Jed

[melzawelza]

Melzelwelza

I agree. The group that will see the demise of the pedigree dog is the pedigree dog world that consistently excuses terrible breeding practices in some breeds, not the AR nuts (can't stand them either and don't deny their aim but they won't be the ones that achieve it.).

Wrong. That's what AR wants you to think.

And you could elucidate the "terrible breeding practices" of which you speak?

There is no denying that a small number of breeds are facing large scale health issues or just simple diminished quality of life because of breeding for the extreme. Neo mastiffs are one. Unless the pb world as a whole stops excusing these breeds then yes, you will get an overarching body stepping in and seeing the demise of the purebred dog. If the purebred body publicly accept and actively work towards improving quality of life for these dogs then people won't feel the need to constantly put pressure and impose on the pb fancy. AND they'll stop extrapolating it to all breeds.

There has been so much of it in this thread. Denial of any issue in any breeds. That just makes the general public think the rest of you are just as bad otherwise why would you excuse it? Even if it isn't the case, the whole group ends up being put in the basket.

[Jed]

Oh well, Neo Mastiffs will probably be one of the first to get the chop. :)

[Alkhe]

Melzelwelza

I agree. The group that will see the demise of the pedigree dog is the pedigree dog world that consistently excuses terrible breeding practices in some breeds, not the AR nuts (can't stand them either and don't deny their aim but they won't be the ones that achieve it.).

Wrong. That's what AR wants you to think.

And you could elucidate the "terrible breeding practices" of which you speak?

There is no denying that a small number of breeds are facing large scale health issues or just simple diminished quality of life because of breeding for the extreme. Neo mastiffs are one. Unless the pb world as a whole stops excusing these breeds then yes, you will get an overarching body stepping in and seeing the demise of the purebred dog. If the purebred body publicly accept and actively work towards improving quality of life for these dogs then people won't feel the need to constantly put pressure and impose on the pb fancy. AND they'll stop extrapolating it to all breeds.

There has been so much of it in this thread. Denial of any issue in any breeds. That just makes the general public think the rest of you are just as bad otherwise why would you excuse it? Even if it isn't the case, the whole group ends up being put in the basket.

+1.

[murve]

Oh well, Neo Mastiffs will probably be one of the first to get the chop. :)

I agree Jed, Neo's could be the 1st to diminish off our PB list of dogs. which breed will be next ?????

[Alyosha]

Pity really, I'm sure most Neos actually enjoy being alive.

Perhaps again a breed is being labelled problematic by certain subjective examples. Funny how people here are quick to defend the pitbull breed against the actions of a few. Yet the actions of a few breeders, or the appearance of a few purebreds are enough to condemn whole breeds.

I have yet to see anyone here say there are no problems anywhere, only people taking offence to blanket blame and fault being apportioned.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Alyosha

[Crisovar]

Melzelwelza

I agree. The group that will see the demise of the pedigree dog is the pedigree dog world that consistently excuses terrible breeding practices in some breeds, not the AR nuts (can't stand them either and don't deny their aim but they won't be the ones that achieve it.).

Wrong. That's what AR wants you to think.

And you could elucidate the "terrible breeding practices" of which you speak?

There is no denying that a small number of breeds are facing large scale health issues or just simple diminished quality of life because of breeding for the extreme. Neo mastiffs are one. Unless the pb world as a whole stops excusing these breeds then yes, you will get an overarching body stepping in and seeing the demise of the purebred dog. If the purebred body publicly accept and actively work towards improving quality of life for these dogs then people won't feel the need to constantly put pressure and impose on the pb fancy. AND they'll stop extrapolating it to all breeds.

There has been so much of it in this thread. Denial of any issue in any breeds. That just makes the general public think the rest of you are just as bad otherwise why would you excuse it? Even if it isn't the case, the whole group ends up being put in the basket.

Please find and quote where it has been stated that there are no problems. Who has excused bad breeding?...find that and quote it too please. Pointing out that ARE actually good Breeders working very hard to produce healthy sound animals is far from denying that there any problems. The purebreed bodies are actively working on healthy dogs, do they need to take out prime time tv advertising for some of you to get that.

From the ANKC website

The ANKC has entered into partnership with the Australian Veterinary Association

(AVA) in two major Disease Surveillance Programs, Canine Hip & Elbow Dysplasia

Scheme (CHEDS) and Australian Canine Eye Scheme (ACES). The results from

these schemes have enabled breeders to select sound breeding stock.

After wide consultation with breeders the ANKC has introduced a number of

Litter Registration Limitations (LRL’s). For example in Golden Retrievers,

Labradors, German Shepherds and Rottweiler’s, ANKC Member Bodies will not

register any litters where the sire and dam have not been screened for Hip

Dysplasia. Since the introduction of LRL’s in the early 2000’s there has been a

demonstrable lowering of the mean score for these breeds.

Other breed clubs are currently in the process of instituting LRL’s for example

Irish Setters-CLAD and Bedlington Terriers-Copper Toxicosis, as well other breed

clubs are introducing DNA testing requirements for PRA, CL in Border Collies etc.

With the growth of DNA disease testing, control schemes are now common place

and are helping breeders produce sound, healthy puppies.

Research Support

Australian Pedigree Dog Breeders, who are members of ANKC Affiliated Bodies,

fund the Canine Research Foundation with an allocation of one dollar from each

puppy registration fee. Over half a million dollars has been granted to University

Veterinary Researchers. Some of the Projects include:

Molecular Signaling Mechanisms of Eosinophilia in Rottweiler’s.

Global Gene Expression Profiling of Canine Lymphoma.

Long term use of Phenobarbitone in Cane Idiopathic Epilepsy.

Using the Dog Genome Sequence to identify Genetic Disorders.

Detection of Ceroid Lipofuscinosis in Border Collies.

Liver Dysfunction in Tibetan Spaniels.

Vaccination of bitches to prevent Uterine Disease.

Disease Gene Mapping.

The role of Apoptosis in Cardiac Disease.

Progressive Retinal Atrophy in the Irish Setter.

Plasma Products for Transfusion.

Studies on Blood Donor Dogs.

Developing Tests for Progressive Retinal Atrophy

Predictors of Tumour Malignancy

In addition The Canine Control Council Queensland (CCCQ) funds research in

conjunction with the University of Queensland.

Many Pedigree Dog Clubs and Societies provide additional funding for research

into diseases affecting their Breeds.

Pretty easy to find, took a lot less time than it would have for someone to troll for footage and images of bad examples and compile them for shock value.

Look through threads on forums like this where people ask for advice choosing a breeder, they are advised to look for a Breeder who health tests, generally by other Breeders, does that sound like denial of issues?

[Bjelkier]

Thanks for the interesting article from Norway, Mita.

They have it right ... and the 10 rules are the rules all breeders should follow and the good ones do follow. + basic knowledge of pedigrees and how to read them, and genetics should be a requirement.

Crisovar

Meanwhile dedicated Breeders are involved in research for DNA tests, financially contributing as well as supplying samples and data, sharing information, publishing test results, expanding on bloodlines by importing animals semen, if that is doing nothing then what the hell are they doing?

Pshwar!! Not good enough, definitely not good enough.

Steve, as you are in agreement with Megan, please tell me which breeds need airconditioning to survive in 30 degrees? Don't say pekingese.

There is far too much generalisation. Someone heard something from someone who read it in the paper and so it is passed on. But no one seems to know any stats about it.

My vet told me pugs' eyes fall out. On questioning, he told me he had never seen it happen, he had never been told by anyone he knew that they saw it happen. However, he knew it was true.

So don't tell me about unhealthy breeds, show me the money.

I have seen it happen unfortunately, in fact I was in surgery assisting. It had happened to the other eye too.

However this pug was a very over done example of the breed, shocking eyes.

[Jed]

Bjelkier, obviously something terribly wrong with someone's interpretation of the standard. Have to suspect perhaps they never read the standard? This is probably where my vet heard this!!

Sounds as if heaps of pugs eyes fall out. I've never seen any do it at shows, have to watch harder

I don't think breeding pugs is for anyone except experts, with a mentor.

But they will no doubt be the 2nd breed to go - or Cavaliers.

[Dame Aussie]

I've seen a few Pugs with missing eyes and saw one have its eye pierced by something due to being very prominent but never seen one actually fall out. I agree Jed, some breeds are best left to experts!

[Bjelkier]

Bjelkier, obviously something terribly wrong with someone's interpretation of the standard. Have to suspect perhaps they never read the standard? This is probably where my vet heard this!!

Sounds as if heaps of pugs eyes fall out. I've never seen any do it at shows, have to watch harder

I don't think breeding pugs is for anyone except experts, with a mentor.

But they will no doubt be the 2nd breed to go - or Cavaliers.

Without a doubt, the dog was a mess.

I've never seen it happen to a dog at a show either but then none of the dogs I've seen at shows looked anything like this animal.

[tdierikx]

If you believe the AR nuts, all pedigreed dogs are incredibly unhealthy, and all pound/shelter dogs have "issues", and all pet shop pups come from atrocious puppy mills... are there any dogs fit for the pet market? Oh yes... the BYB mob... *sigh*

T.

[Greylvr]

If you believe the AR nuts, all pedigreed dogs are incredibly unhealthy, and all pound/shelter dogs have "issues", and all pet shop pups come from atrocious puppy mills... are there any dogs fit for the pet market? Oh yes... the BYB mob... *sigh*

T.

No they would rather us all let the dogs loose to live in the wild like they were intended to

[Weasels]

If you believe the AR nuts, all pedigreed dogs are incredibly unhealthy, and all pound/shelter dogs have "issues", and all pet shop pups come from atrocious puppy mills... are there any dogs fit for the pet market? Oh yes... the BYB mob... *sigh*

T.

No they would rather us all let the dogs loose to live in the wild like they were intended to

There was a study last year where thousands of wild dogs from across Australia were DNA tested and I think something like 1% of them were domestic dogs (as opposed to dingoes or dingo-dog mixes).

My conclusion? Dogs don't survive in the Australian bush. Taking them out of homes = sentencing them to a nasty death

[Dame Aussie]

Yeah, it's all well and good to wish for an ideal world but the fact is we have domesticated them so now we are responsible for them.