Look What They Have Done To Our Dogs.

[rebelsquest]

ohhh my dear lord, peta has brain washed more people than I thought, with their buy from a breeder, kill a shelter dog bullcrap

I didn't say that AND I hate PETA I said that people see a shelter dog and if it is not adopted it will die and breeders dogs are safe and shouldn't be in danger of dying if it doesn't find a home. Thats why I think some choose to adopt also you can find purebred dogs in rescue/shelter for a fraction of the cost with all medical done.

You may hate them but you have bought into their blame game.

As to purebred dogs in shelters, you are also buying into the viewpoint that any dog will do. Please guess how many of my breeds I have come across in shelters. Go on. Guess.

How have I bought into their game? I simply stated why I think some people adopt rather than buy from breeders.

People are free to get their dogs from anywhere they please, if you have a love for a breed that dont hit shelters often or you would rather have one with papers then go to a breeder makes sense to me but most people just want a pet and a shelter dog is what they want.

Most?

If most people wanted a shelter dog there wouldn't be any dogs in shelters.

Sorry most people just want a pet. Not most people want a shelter pet

Why do you think that pedigree dogs are not pets?

Oh god yes they are pets too. I know some people prefer pedigrees to be pets.

Sorry, what do you mean by the bolded? Some people prefer pedigrees to be pets as opposed to what?

ETA - wondering if you mean some people prefer pets to have a pedigree, and have just mixed the words around?

Edited December 30, 2012 by rebelsquest

[Greylvr]

ohhh my dear lord, peta has brain washed more people than I thought, with their buy from a breeder, kill a shelter dog bullcrap

I didn't say that AND I hate PETA I said that people see a shelter dog and if it is not adopted it will die and breeders dogs are safe and shouldn't be in danger of dying if it doesn't find a home. Thats why I think some choose to adopt also you can find purebred dogs in rescue/shelter for a fraction of the cost with all medical done.

You may hate them but you have bought into their blame game.

As to purebred dogs in shelters, you are also buying into the viewpoint that any dog will do. Please guess how many of my breeds I have come across in shelters. Go on. Guess.

How have I bought into their game? I simply stated why I think some people adopt rather than buy from breeders.

People are free to get their dogs from anywhere they please, if you have a love for a breed that dont hit shelters often or you would rather have one with papers then go to a breeder makes sense to me but most people just want a pet and a shelter dog is what they want.

Most?

If most people wanted a shelter dog there wouldn't be any dogs in shelters.

Sorry most people just want a pet. Not most people want a shelter pet

Why do you think that pedigree dogs are not pets?

Oh god yes they are pets too. I know some people prefer pedigrees to be pets.

Sorry, what do you mean by the bolded? Some people prefer pedigrees to be pets as opposed to what?

ETA - wondering if you mean some people prefer pets to have a pedigree, and have just mixed the words around?

Sorry I meant some people prefer their pets to have papers and come from a breeder vs a shelter dog like reb said she likes to know where her dogs come from, she cant take strange greyhounds because of the cat. My brother prefers to get imported dogs from their country of origin.

[minimax]

Sorry most people just want a pet. Not most people want a shelter pet

Why do you think that pedigree dogs are not pets?

My pedigree dogs are my pets first and foremost. I like knowing what I am getting.

My pedigree dogs are purely pets, they are not show dogs or breeding dogs or anything else but pets.

[Sheridan]

My two are former show dogs but even so, showing was a hobby for their previous owners. Grumpy also sired two litters. I think show dogs and breeding dogs are generally pets first and foremost.

[Alyosha]

Because adopting a dog from a shelter or rescue is saving its life when other people have turned their backs, their breeders arnt there for them, the owners dont give a rats they face death. Dogs from breeders wont face death or at least shouldn't ever face death just because it doesnt get bought.

Ok. I'll bite in the semantics game. That is not the meaning of adopt. It has become a twisted misuse of the word by animal rights and animal welfare organisations - part of the broader guilt game.

From www.merriam-webster.com

adopt verb \ə-ˈdäpt\

transitive verb

1: to take by choice into a relationship; especially : to take voluntarily (a child of other parents) as one's own child

So adopting is not saving. Adopting is choosing. A pup at a breeders' home, which is available to a new home, and purchased by a new owner, is every bit as adopted as a shelter pet.

[Greylvr]

Because adopting a dog from a shelter or rescue is saving its life when other people have turned their backs, their breeders arnt there for them, the owners dont give a rats they face death. Dogs from breeders wont face death or at least shouldn't ever face death just because it doesnt get bought.

Ok. I'll bite in the semantics game. That is not the meaning of adopt. It has become a twisted misuse of the word by animal rights and animal welfare organisations - part of the broader guilt game.

From www.merriam-webster.com

adopt verb \ə-ˈdäpt\

transitive verb

1: to take by choice into a relationship; especially : to take voluntarily (a child of other parents) as one's own child

So adopting is not saving. Adopting is choosing. A pup at a breeders' home, which is available to a new home, and purchased by a new owner, is every bit as adopted as a shelter pet.

I see what you are saying.

[hortfurball]

The solution lies in better education across the board but no amount of education can teach people that dog ownership is NOT a right. It's a privilege that comes with certain responsibilites and the primary one is the welfare of the dog.

The bolded bit is one of the best things I've read in this entire thread. The only part I disagree with somewhat is "no amount of education can teach people..." If you'd added the word 'some' before 'people', I''d regretfully have to agree though.

Too many people are using pound numbers as a crutch - how many really nicely bred pedigreed dogs do you ever see in pounds? Break it down - the number is miniscule, yes?

Then we could look at WHY dogs end up in pounds/shelters... and that would predominately be that "the dog didn't live up to expectations"... pedigreed breeders have the means to match their dogs to the right homes due to the predictability of their breed characteristics, thus negating the numbers that "don't live up to expectation"... BUT there are not enough breeders of dogs that WILL live up to expectations - as opposed to the many who couldn't give a shit as long as the money comes in for their farmed or BYB pups.

I am NOT advocating the selling of dogs to unsuitable homes - no matter the breed or mix...

The more great examples of pedigreed PET dogs we have out in the public arena, the better publicity towards them as a great choice for a pet, the better for the whole pedigreed world, yes? Not to mention better for the general public who really only want a lovely pet dog to share their lives with.

T.

That's because they are usually in foster homes with breed specific rescue groups. My breed is not one to be encouraging every Tom, Dick or Harry to own, or you'd have wild Scooby Doos rampaging all over the place giving danes a bad name. Just this week, a purebred girl was handed in to the vet to be PTS because the owner was busy with 4 young children, didn't have time for the dog and she kept escaping due to insufficient fencing. The vet happened to be a great dane lover and talked the owner into surrendering the dog instead - she's a pussycat in her foster home and will make the RIGHT owner a perfect pet. You can't seriously advocate breeding more pedigreed dogs to flood the market so that they end up in the sort of unsuitable homes I wouldn't wish on a pound pup!

So - breeding less nicely turned out pedigreed dogs and having a completely distrustful attitude to prospective pet owners is the answer?

T.

No, educating those who care enough to learn is the answer. And making damn sure that for those who don't there are laws that control how dogs are bought and kept.

No one has the right to have a breeder's pup. They have to satisfy the breeder that they will give it a good home. And some breeders have earned the right to be distrustful - the hard way.

A prospective Whippet owner who expects the dog to behave just like a golden retriever has earned the initial distrust a breeder might display. If education won't work then "sorry but no" is all you've got.

Sorry most people just want a pet. Not most people want a shelter pet

Actually I think most people are pretty specific about exactly what they want in a pet. People are swayed by big brown eyes and by cute bundles of fluff but it doesn't always work out. The long term homes are those who acknowledge what sort of owner they are capable of being, and get a dog that suits those needs. I'm a lazy groomer, I have two sleek coated dogs. I admire fluffy or full coated dogs but I would never get one in a pink fit. Likewise, the sort of dog that appeals to me doesn't appeal to everyone.

People may say they 'just want a dog' but when they go to the shelter, they'll still be selective - "not that one, it's too tall/hairy/noisy/active/ugly, I want the little cute creamy coloured one with the pretty eyes" because THAT is what appeals to them. I'm under no illusions that should my kelpie x end up at the pound, she'd probably not stand a chance, and yet she is one of the most wonderful creatures I've ever had the pleasure to know, regardless of her many faults! :D Pet selection is a very individual thing. Not just any dog will do, although a range of dogs fitting the criteria might do.

[~Anne~]

I agree that most people just want a pet. Just a dog. Not a lecture and not a guilt trip. A dog that appeals to them. A dog that fits the criteria of a pet to them.

We make owning a pet harder than it should be.

[tdierikx]

Greylvr - your history here on DOL indicates that you do very much seem to believe the AR line regarding "adoption" of a poundie/rescue, rather than the "purchase" of a pedigreed dog.

As others have said, there really isn't one nice easy answer to the problem of animals ending up in pounds - but you have to agree that most good breeders of pedigreed dogs do try to ensure that none of their dogs end up there - be that by careful selection of prospective homes, actively helping out if the owners' circumstances change, etc...

I don't like seeing the numbers of dogs in pounds we currently have, but I also know that there are going to be a number of them that really shouldn't be "saved" or, god forbid, "adopted"...

All that said, the attitude of some people who own/breed towards the general pet wanting public does very much come across as "elitist" and/or "guardianship" of their breed - as if to imply that no-one from the general public is "qualified" to share their lives with one of "their" breed. To those people I say that's all very well and good, but somewhere, sometime, somebody trusted YOU enough to have one of their dogs so that you could enjoy all that they bring to your life, yes?

You can shout from the rooftops all of the benefits and joy that a well bred pefigreed dog brings with it, but if it's impossible for the pet desiring public to acquire one, then where else is there for them to get a dog? Others have seen that gap in the market and are making a nice little living producing pups for it... usually to the detriment of the dogs and their owners... but there are also many more for whom "pot luck" has worked out just fine.

If you really want to raise the profile of well bred pedigreed dogs, you are going to have to make sure those sort of dogs are highly visible to the general public.

T.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Re the general public, their newspaper of choice in Victoria, had this to say yesterday. To get the full article without subscribing, put the article title in your search bar.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/the-proper-value-of-a-pets-life/story-e6frfhqf-1226545103469

So yes, there is an issue, and that piece looks very much as if it were scripted by AA or a similar organisation. It even takes a swipe at the RSPCA.

--

MAHATMA Gandhi said "the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated".

Leaving aside the more complex issue of how we treat our livestock, it's still difficult to determine if Australia is a progressive, humane society or one with a moral compass in urgent need of repair.

We have one of the highest rates of pet ownership

in the world and spend billions caring for our furry friends - but we also put down thousands of healthy cats and dogs every week.

This disturbing paradox is particularly conspicuous this time of year, when animal lovers happily pay more than $1000 for a designer puppy while unwanted cats and dogs sit on death row in shelters awaiting their cruel fate.

An estimated 250,000 cats and dogs are euthanased each year in Australia, a figure that should distress every civilised, thinking human being.

The problem isn't one of demand - 450,000 dogs and 165,000 cats are sold every year - the problem is the out-of-control supply through puppy mills, backyard breeders and irresponsible pet owners who refuse to desex their animals.

Regardless of how reputable breeders claim to be, their very existence contributes to an oversupply of animals, and the sad reality is that many do not behave ethically; keeping their breeding bitches in appalling conditions.

Pet stores and even shelters must also share the blame for the number of unwanted animals.

Australia's biggest animal shelter, the Lost Dogs' Home, kills many more dogs than it rehomes and as for cats the kill rate is often above 80 per cent.

Even the RSPCA, that much lovedorganisation charged with protecting the welfare of animals, has been criticised for its kill rate and temperament tests.

A behavioural assessment to determine whether an animal is suitable for adoption is done for every animal received at the shelter.

If an animal fails the test it will be destroyed.

It stands to reason that animals in a shelter would be anxious, "food guarding" and stressed by sudden loud noises. How many good-natured cats and dogs have been put down before ever getting the chance to be adopted?

There can also be a disconnect between the many animal rescue groups and authorities such as the RSPCA and council-run shelters.

They share the common goal of finding homes for as many animals as possible but appear to spend more time in dispute than in collaboration.

The Geelong Animal Welfare Society is an example of what can be accomplished when a shelter works with rescue groups and engages the community to reduce its kill rate.

GAWS has made significant changes to its operation in the past year and has reduced its kill rate to 10 per cent for dogs and 50 per cent for cats.

Without receiving any government funding the shelter has achieved the highest adoption rate in Victoria.

Progress also is being made on a legislative front.

Last year Victoria abolished the time limit rule that dictated animals had to be destroyed if they were not found homes within 28 days.

However, this has had little effect on the number of animals killed as there simply aren't enough people adopting animals from shelters.

People want a puppy, or are so fixated on a particular breed of cat or dog that they refuse to consider shelters when buying a pet.

The truth is that shelters have so many cats and dogs available for adoption that it's almost impossible not to find an ideal pet to suit your needs.

As consumers, we need to stop adding to the oversupply problem by patronising breeders and pet stores.

Head to the pound next time you want to add a cuddly cat or canine to your household.

You won't be disappointed.

[tdierikx]

In all honesty, there ARE a lot of perfectly appropriate dogs in the pounds I frequent - however, the fact that most decent registered breeders can offer more predictability with their dogs should be a big consideration.

Then again, the availability issue raises it's ugly head, and the average Joe starts to believe the trash the AR groups are spewing forth to the media about registered breeders "contributing to the problem" - as they see it anyways...

I am involved in rescue, and I know that I'm not completely likely to want to adopt a dog straight from a pound - and part of my "duty" with rescue is to select pound dogs for my group to take in, so I'm possibly a little more savvy about what I'm looking for than the average member of the public.

Those of us who choose to be completely informed of the "situation" KNOW that it's NOT registered breeders pumping out most of the pets out there... BYB are by far the largest group - even surpassing the DD farmers. The advent of the silly "breed" names didn't do any of us a favour either - people are crossing all sorts of things in their back yards, giving them a cute "breed" name and selling them off for exhorbitant prices. Gone are the days where the FTGH crossbred pup is the norm - people can see that the silly "breed" names translate into dollar value...

Oh - and hybrid vigour isn't a myth, but it certainly doesn't mean that any old cross is going to be healthier than a well thought out outcross in a breeding program by someone who does it to further their breed's health and wellbeing.

T.

[Salukifan]

Head to the pound next time you want to add a cuddly cat or canine to your household.

You won't be disappointed.

Tell that to pet dog owners I see struggling to control large, reactive bull breed mixes that they 'saved' from destruction.

Dog ownership should be a pleasure, not a struggle. On my last visit to my local dog club awards day, I saw a number of such owners. They've bought the message, saved the dog and now, to their credit, they are sticking by an animal that causes them constant stress and worry when outside the home. And the pounds are full of such dogs - poorly bred inadequately socialised and frankly, unsuitable for many families.

Yep there are some great dogs in pounds and there are quite a few that need a savvy owner and a hell of a lot of work. How does your average novice dog owner tell the difference and God forbid that someone actually bothers to temperament test - oh how evil and uncaring. *insert rolly eyes here*.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[tdierikx]

Ahhh - but therein lies the rub... how does the novice dog owner manage to source a well bred pedigree instead of a BYB/petshop/rescue/pound dog?

As for the RSPCA temp tests - they aren't exactly designed to have dogs pass in great numbers - they are more designed to justify the high kill rates.

T.

[Kavik]

Head to the pound next time you want to add a cuddly cat or canine to your household.

You won't be disappointed.

Tell that to pet dog owners I see struggling to control large, reactive bull breed mixes that they 'saved' from destruction.

Dog ownership should be a pleasure, not a struggle. On my last visit to my local dog club awards day, I saw a number of such owners. They've bought the message, saved the dog and now, to their credit, they are sticking by an animal that causes them constant stress and worry when outside the home. And the pounds are full of such dogs - poorly bred inadequately socialised and frankly, unsuitable for many families.

Yep there are some great dogs in pounds and there are quite a few that need a savvy owner and a hell of a lot of work. How does your average novice dog owner tell the difference and God forbid that someone actually bothers to temperament test - oh how evil and uncaring. *insert rolly eyes here*.

And on Facebook yesterday a rescue group patted itself on the back for gathering resources to save a dog aggressive dog with seizures. Talk about rehoming a dog that is potentially going to cause a well meaning person stress and worry!

[tdierikx]

It wasn't THAT "rescue" group, was it? Cowboys give ALL of us a bad name... grrr!

Rescue should not be about how MANY dogs you can "save", but more about how WELL you can match dogs to owners/families - in the same way that great breeders select great homes for their dogs/pups...

T.

[WreckitWhippet]

Ahhh - but therein lies the rub... how does the novice dog owner manage to source a well bred pedigree instead of a BYB/petshop/rescue/pound dog?

As for the RSPCA temp tests - they aren't exactly designed to have dogs pass in great numbers - they are more designed to justify the high kill rates.

T.

Google, it's not rocket science.

For the SBT and the Whippet google takes you straight to Dogzonline and also the breed clubs. The breed club sites are full of information about the breeds.

Getting there and getting the information is the easy bit, it's finding a pup in many breeds where it becomes difficult, as to put it simply there are not enough pedigree pups being bred to meet the demand for them.

I've got a litter at the moment that will not be advertised because there were people lining up for pups before she was even mated.

[Kavik]

It wasn't THAT "rescue" group, was it? Cowboys give ALL of us a bad name... grrr!

Rescue should not be about how MANY dogs you can "save", but more about how WELL you can match dogs to owners/families - in the same way that great breeders select great homes for their dogs/pups...

T.

Actually, it wasn't that group, but a breed type specific group. Not a group you would think of as cowboys. They have the dog in foster care now. I find it worrying.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Kavik

[minimax]

Ahhh - but therein lies the rub... how does the novice dog owner manage to source a well bred pedigree instead of a BYB/petshop/rescue/pound dog?

As for the RSPCA temp tests - they aren't exactly designed to have dogs pass in great numbers - they are more designed to justify the high kill rates.

T.

Google, it's not rocket science.

For the SBT and the Whippet google takes you straight to Dogzonline and also the breed clubs. The breed club sites are full of information about the breeds.

Getting there and getting the information is the easy bit, it's finding a pup in many breeds where it becomes difficult, as to put it simply there are not enough pedigree pups being bred to meet the demand for them.

I've got a litter at the moment that will not be advertised because there were people lining up for pups before she was even mated.

But then you get the (all too common) I emailed breeders and they didn't respond so I was forced to go buy a pet shop puppy. Did they follow up the breeders, or make any other efforts? No, but in their mind they did all they could by sending one email therefor it's the breeders fault they had to go to the petshop and get a puppy.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Hybrid vigour in this context is a myth. It generally exists in plants and when crossing species, not within species and not within these dogs because they share so much common genetic material.

[Salukifan]

Ahhh - but therein lies the rub... how does the novice dog owner manage to source a well bred pedigree instead of a BYB/petshop/rescue/pound dog?

As for the RSPCA temp tests - they aren't exactly designed to have dogs pass in great numbers - they are more designed to justify the high kill rates.

T.

Strangely, quite a few novice dog owners manage to pull it off. I was one of them.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Haredown Whippets