Look What They Have Done To Our Dogs.

[megan_]

I agree with HW - the more dog owners I meet, the more disillusioned I have become about them. My girl doesnt like in-your-face dogs and doesn't like being jumped on by off leash dogs. I have to walk her at 5.30am just so that we don't get harassed by off leash dogs in on leash areas. I'd love to yaks her to a dogs Vic club for obedience but every time we go we get harassed by out of control dogs even though she has a "please give me space" vest - and these are the owners bothering to train their dogs!

I'd much rather see a responsible dog ownership campaign and a "do you really want a dog?" one too. People are living busy lives these days and I wonder how many people get s dog because it is the Aussie thing to do and then once it isn't cute it is locked in the backyard because it is a PIA.

[becks]

Watching those BB videos, they seem to have one thing in common - longer noses then is seen in the majority of the BBs I have seen - and we have large classes of them over here

link below to our last group champ show will show you the numbers I mean.

http://www.fossedata.co.uk/show_results/result.aspx?id=BUBA_DEC_12#.UN9ZM2_ZZYc

a friend has 2 bulldogs from a show breeder, one can't even get over half height jumps, the other with a longer nose and legs can get about half way around a jumping course before needing to stop for a rest, and this is when the weather isn't warm.

Now, I like Bulldogs but I think they have gone to an extreme - they look nothing how the dogs of the time the BS was drawn up looked like, and no one seems to wonder if the dogs of today are actually what they people who drew up the BS had in mind for the breed.

[tdierikx]

See now, there are generalisations from both sides of the argument... *grin*

I'm not denying that there are people out there who look at their pets as possessions - but is it fair to taint the whole group with that generalisation?

The numbers of dogs that end up in pounds is a nice statistic, but when compared with the actual number of pet dogs out there, it's not the largest pool to base any really useful facts upon. Too many people are using pound numbers as a crutch - how many really nicely bred pedigreed dogs do you ever see in pounds? Break it down - the number is miniscule, yes?

Then we could look at WHY dogs end up in pounds/shelters... and that would predominately be that "the dog didn't live up to expectations"... pedigreed breeders have the means to match their dogs to the right homes due to the predictability of their breed characteristics, thus negating the numbers that "don't live up to expectation"... BUT there are not enough breeders of dogs that WILL live up to expectations - as opposed to the many who couldn't give a shit as long as the money comes in for their farmed or BYB pups.

I am NOT advocating the selling of dogs to unsuitable homes - no matter the breed or mix...

The more great examples of pedigreed PET dogs we have out in the public arena, the better publicity towards them as a great choice for a pet, the better for the whole pedigreed world, yes? Not to mention better for the general public who really only want a lovely pet dog to share their lives with.

T.

[Salukifan]

See now, there are generalisations from both sides of the argument... *grin*

I'm not denying that there are people out there who look at their pets as possessions - but is it fair to taint the whole group with that generalisation?

The numbers of dogs that end up in pounds is a nice statistic, but when compared with the actual number of pet dogs out there, it's not the largest pool to base any really useful facts upon. Too many people are using pound numbers as a crutch - how many really nicely bred pedigreed dogs do you ever see in pounds? Break it down - the number is miniscule, yes?

T.

I didn't write all pet owners off. But to a significant number of them, a dog is "just a dog". I see it all the time. They want get one quickly and without a lot of thought. It's fed as cheaply as possible, not socialised or trained, probably not registered or vaccinated and disposed off if it inconvieces them.

ANKC pedigreed dogs account for about 20% of all dogs bred each year. Few breeders have trouble placing all their pups and they're pretty selective. Even then some homes don't work out. That accounts for the miniscule numbers in pounds - fewer of them and more selectively placed.

Take Whippets. To suggest to some people that keeping one outside in sub zero temperatures is simply unsuitable doesn't compute. Dogs live outside because that's where they belong. Blanket in a kennel and she'll be right. Dog coats? That's only for pampered dogs. Higher fat foods? Nope, they'll have Supercoat because its cheap. And they wonder why the dog can't maintain weight.

They won't spend the money on a pedigreed dog when you can get a cheaper version no questions asked from BYBs. They don't understand sighthound temperament because they haven't done their homework and the dogs lead a pretty ordinary life as a result. It's played out right here in the Whippet thread before.

If I sound like I have a pretty ordinary view of some dog owners you're right. I do. So breeding more pets to sell to them? No thanks. Because I'll be hung, drawn and quartered right here if I can't take each and every dog back if the home doesn't work out for a start. And of course dogs deserve better lives than some owners are prepared to give them.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I didn't write all pet owners off. But to a significant number of them, a dog is "just a dog". I see it all the time. They want get one quickly and without a lot of thought. It's fed as cheaply as possible, not socialised or trained, probably not registered or vaccinated and disposed off if it inconvieces them.

ANKC pedigreed dogs account for about 20% of all dogs bred each year. Few breeders have trouble placing all their pups and they're pretty selective. Even then some homes don't work out. That accounts for the miniscule numbers in pounds - fewer of them and more selectively placed.

Take Whippets. To suggest to some people that keeping one outside in sub zero temperatures is simply unsuitable doesn't compute. Dogs live outside because that's where they belong. Blanket in a kennel and she'll be right. Dog coats? That's only for pampered dogs. Higher fat foods? Nope, they'll have Supercoat because its cheap. And they wonder why the dog can't maintain weight.

They won't spend the money on a pedigreed dog when you can get a cheaper version no questions asked from BYBs. They don't understand sighthound temperament because they haven't done their homework and the dogs lead a pretty ordinary life as a result. It's played out right here in the Whippet thread before.

If I sound like I have a pretty ordinary view of some dog owners you're right. I do. So breeding more pets to sell to them? No thanks. Because I'll be hung, drawn and quartered right here if I can't take each and every dog back if the home doesn't work out for a start. And of course dogs deserve better lives than some owners are prepared to give them.

Agree with this, just a couple of additional comments. Some breeds do have a hell of a time finding suitable homes, such that it is preventing really good breeders breeding again because we now don't tolerate that other option that I better not bring into this thread. Afghans are one example. Unfortunately iffy breeders don't have so many compunctions. The thing is, there are worse things for a hard to train heavily coated dog or cross of that dog than a humane death. My views on that subject don't arise from a history of Afghan breeding (I don't have one) but from working in sighthound rescue. So "filling the pet market" doesn't apply to all of us anyway. Some breeds are a worse idea in the hands of the clueless and careless than others - tho' no dog should have to put up with that kind of life.

The only other observation I'd make tho' is that it's is usually the problems that are visible. So the 5 people who still have their dog sitting at home with them on the couch while they watch TV after going for a nice long on lead walk aren't visible, the one person who makes a complete mess of it and then dumps the dog onto rescue because their husband got the shits with it and they got bored with it, they are visible. Both on this board and out in rescue land. I think one risk is that we see so many idiots, we think the world is made up of idiots. I'm still hopeful that it isn't tho' I concede it's the triumph of hope over experience.

[tdierikx]

So - breeding less nicely turned out pedigreed dogs and having a completely distrustful attitude to prospective pet owners is the answer?

If we are trying to educate the masses about the diversity and general wonderfulness of being a pedigreed dog owner, it doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to set a goal that can't be achieved... ie. to own a well bred pedigreed dog as a pet.

Sure - not all people who want a dog are "qualified" to own anything more than a stuffed toy - but I have a sneaking suspicion that those are somewhat outnumbered by those who ARE "qualified" to give a dog a wonderful home.

Take this board as a small indicator of the general dog owning population - some have pedigrees, some have purebreds without pedigrees, some have mixed breeds... but generally we ALL have the best interests of our dogs at heart, yes? Translate that to a larger pet owning public, and you'll probably find that a majority of pet owners really want to do right by their pet - just that we all do it a bit differently to each other.

I'll say it again, I am NOT advocating breeding copious numbers of pups to supply to any Joe with the funds to "take it off your hands" - selection of good homes for EVERY pup should be a primary goal for ANY breeder - be it pedigreed, pure, or mixed breed. I just think it would be awesome if there were MORE well bred pedigreed dogs available than there are right now. If your statistic of 20% is accurate - we can all only wonder at the sources of the other 80% of pets out there.

T.

[Salukifan]

So - breeding less nicely turned out pedigreed dogs and having a completely distrustful attitude to prospective pet owners is the answer?

T.

No, educating those who care enough to learn is the answer. And making damn sure that for those who don't there are laws that control how dogs are bought and kept.

No one has the right to have a breeder's pup. They have to satisfy the breeder that they will give it a good home. And some breeders have earned the right to be distrustful - the hard way.

A prospective Whippet owner who expects the dog to behave just like a golden retriever has earned the initial distrust a breeder might display. If education won't work then "sorry but no" is all you've got.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[SkySoaringMagpie]

So - breeding less nicely turned out pedigreed dogs and having a completely distrustful attitude to prospective pet owners is the answer?

There isn't a single answer. If you want one of my breed you don't have to wait long before a suitable litter comes up. Used to be that you'd be looking at 6 months to a year, now there's usually something around at any given moment. So in our particular "market" they are readily available but not oversupplied.

In other breed "markets" they are undersupplied or oversupplied. I'm not suggesting that we breed less in markets that are about right or under supplied, and there are niches within particular breed markets too - but you have to create the demand in a way that is sync'd up with the supply. Hence my example about Afghans. There isn't a demand for them, and I can see why. I can see some small opportunities to improve the numbers among people who enjoy and can resource high intensity hobbies (and some savvy breeders are doing this) but that isn't most people.

[tdierikx]

It's kind of telling that only a small snippet of my post has attracted answers. Please feel free to read further than that initial line for the overall picture I was attempting to convey...

I think I prefer SSM's answer to it best so far though... *grin*

T.

[Alyosha]

Well that was the only question you asked T. So I don't find it that surprising that people chose to try and answer it.

There's a major problem in all this in that breeders are now encouraged to breed less and less dogs. Not by pet buyers, but by legislators etc. So there becomes a pretty impressive rock an a hard place for those who try to do the right thing.

[Rebanne]

in my breed you could easily wait 2 years or more to get a pup. There are very few people out there who want one. And even fewer that are suitable. So it certainly doesn't make breeding more very attractive. I had a school principal try and tell me that greyhounds were non shedding, she had read it on the net so it must be true. Didn't want to believe me when I told her that was not true, in fact she outright didn't believe me and challenged me on it. She was a high school principle, she knew much better then me, that was her whole attitude. Didn't want to listen to me at all. No hope of educating her.

[Sheridan]

I don't want large numbers of my breeds out there.

[Alyosha]

In my experience in my breed we're pretty lucky in that most enquiries seem to be from genuinely good homes. If they know what the breed is, they've done a fair bit of research to start with!

But of course it's still not all of them. Plus those enquiries are not exactly plentiful, and the very low demand for pets is enough reason to put off breedings for long periods. My next litter plan is on hold indefinitely for that very reason. I want a pup from it, but am not prepared to cull a litter, and the homes for the other potential 10+ pups are just not available. I can't keep an indefinite amount of dogs on my property, and it's not fair on them.

[The Spotted Devil]

I don't want large numbers of my breeds out there.

There were one or two movies that prompted that in one of my breeds. Absolute disaster and their reputation is still recovering.

[Sandra777]

I don't want large numbers of my breeds out there.

x2 - unfortunately that particular horse has long since bolted in Staffords

[Alyosha]

Being popular certain hasn't historically benefitted any particular breed.

[casowner]

in my breed you could easily wait 2 years or more to get a pup. There are very few people out there who want one. And even fewer that are suitable. So it certainly doesn't make breeding more very attractive. I had a school principal try and tell me that greyhounds were non shedding, she had read it on the net so it must be true. Didn't want to believe me when I told her that was not true, in fact she outright didn't believe me and challenged me on it. She was a high school principle, she knew much better then me, that was her whole attitude. Didn't want to listen to me at all. No hope of educating her.

I have waited over 2 1/2 years for a pup and will wait another 2 1/2 if it means getting tthe right one

[Alyosha]

But the vast majority of consumers won't.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I don't know what the solution is. Breeders were vilified for advertising puppies and breeding more than one litter in a blue moon and now there's a problem. We try to tell people to buy from registered breeders but there aren't enough puppies to meet the demand. There are a lot of people who just want a dog and don't want to wait, they don't see things the same we do so they won't go on a long waiting list. They also won't make it through the vetting process. They are the ones who buy from pet shops or DDs and unless we stop them having dogs altogether I can't see how that market can be stopped. Education isn't enough because people refuse to change their minds on how they think dogs should be kept.

[casowner]

But the vast majority of consumers won't.

No they won't and I ended up getting another breed a few weeks ago to fill the void and will wait for my chosen breed, I got another out of necessity as it is primarily a working dog as well as a family pet. If people choose quantity over quality though we will damage breeds maybe permanently but as you said the majority of consumers want their pup now or will maybe wait a few months but that is all. The other thing is that in this economy people will be more price conscious and will price shop as they do with other products. Being in the pet industry I have noticed in the last 18 months people have deserted the idea of brand (pet food) loyalty and will shop for whatever is on special and I have no doubt that will spread to livestock too.