Look What They Have Done To Our Dogs.

[Sandra777]

There is no doubt that some breeds are in very big trouble. Why not stand up and fix those issues rather than being in a constant state of denial. If a breed as a whole can't mate and give birth without medical intervention (a csection is major abdominal surgery) then surely we have gone too far? If a dog needs to be kept in sirconditioning lest it can't breath then there is an issue. It a significant number of dogs in a breed need eye surgery because of entropin (sp) then there is an issue.

Two questions arise... where are the stats proving these claims? ........ Lets make the bold assumption 50% of dogs in five breeds have serious health issues - this is good reason to take a swing at the 99% of dogs in the other 450+ breeds which don't have issues?

[Bullbreedlover]

It is a sad day when everyone who dares question whether we have done the right thing by dogs is branded an AR nut.

I have no doubt that there are extremists out there, but the dog world has let this happen by burying their head in the sand and saying nothing is wrong, most dogs are okay etc. There is no doubt that some breeds are in very big trouble. Why not stand up and fix those issues rather than being in a constant state of denial. If a breed as a whole can't mate and give birth without medical intervention (a csection is major abdominal surgery) then surely we have gone too far? If a dog needs to be kept in sirconditioning lest it can't breath then there is an issue. It a significant number of dogs in a breed need eye surgery because of entropin (sp) then there is an issue. NIMBY doesn't solve these issues.

Obviously not a British Bulldog supporter then are we?

What do you think breeders are trying to do? They are trying to minimilise the need for these things. But hey it doesnt happen over night does it? C sections on bitches have been around for many hundreds of years.

Education is the big key issue here. But people can only do so much cant they? They can only beat their heads against a brick wall for so long cant they?

The funny thing is no one is standing up and saying, well what about us humans. Many humans can't have a child without medical intervention, many cant give birth to a baby without medical intervention and many people who do have babies have them knowing the possibility of them having severe deformities.

ETA by the way, Many many Bulldogs can mate normally and do. With the advent of frozen semen and introducing more bloodlines via semen what is wrong with that?

Many Bulldogs can whelp normally, breeders choose(because they can) to C section a bitch for the health and welfare of everyone involved. and not every dog has entropian.

Arent you lucky that your chosen breed doesnt have many health issues. But they still do have them.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Bullbreedlover

[Greytmate]

It is a sad day when everyone who dares question whether we have done the right thing by dogs is branded an AR nut.

I have no doubt that there are extremists out there, but the dog world has let this happen by burying their head in the sand and saying nothing is wrong, most dogs are okay etc. There is no doubt that some breeds are in very big trouble. Why not stand up and fix those issues rather than being in a constant state of denial. If a breed as a whole can't mate and give birth without medical intervention (a csection is major abdominal surgery) then surely we have gone too far? If a dog needs to be kept in sirconditioning lest it can't breath then there is an issue. It a significant number of dogs in a breed need eye surgery because of entropin (sp) then there is an issue. NIMBY doesn't solve these issues.

Well said Megan.

[Greytmate]

The funny thing is no one is standing up and saying, well what about us humans. Many humans can't have a child without medical intervention, many cant give birth to a baby without medical intervention and many people who do have babies have them knowing the possibility of them having severe deformities.

Yeah that's because this is a dog forum. It isn't appropriate to talk about whether people should have children or not in here.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Greytmate

[Horsegal98]

The funny thing is no one is standing up and saying, well what about us humans. Many humans can't have a child without medical intervention, many cant give birth to a baby without medical intervention and many people who do have babies have them knowing the possibility of them having severe deformities.

Yeah that's because this is a dog forum. It isn't appropriate to talk about whether people should have children or not in here.

And it is extremely controversial to discuss such a thing. The World Health Organisation considers the rate of c-sections in Australia and the United States to be far above the level of necessity. Many are being performed for a number of reasons, including convenience, perceived risk and psychological issues rather than strict physical necessity. These women do then go out into the community and will often justify it as having a medical reason-- I have heard one cite having a cord around the neck being seen on an ultrasound as a reason. Nearly half of babies are born with cords around their neck, including two of mine both born safely in a home birth.

Better nutrition is making bigger (human) babies making birth harder, no one is specifically trying to genetically engineer them that way.

Breeders of British bulldogs are not intentionally trying to create dogs that can't reproduce or birth, but it seems like it is an unfortunate side effect.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Horsegal98

[Bullbreedlover]

It is a sad day when everyone who dares question whether we have done the right thing by dogs is branded an AR nut.

I have no doubt that there are extremists out there, but the dog world has let this happen by burying their head in the sand and saying nothing is wrong, most dogs are okay etc. There is no doubt that some breeds are in very big trouble. Why not stand up and fix those issues rather than being in a constant state of denial. If a breed as a whole can't mate and give birth without medical intervention (a csection is major abdominal surgery) then surely we have gone too far? If a dog needs to be kept in sirconditioning lest it can't breath then there is an issue. It a significant number of dogs in a breed need eye surgery because of entropin (sp) then there is an issue. NIMBY doesn't solve these issues.

Well said Megan.

Well there you are then.

Words of wisdom that we shall all abide by.

Oh thats right. We are trying to do that anyway.

But go ahead, just put the boot in because you can.

As I said before, not a Bulldog supporter then are we?

[megan_]

I wasn't thinking of the British bulldog when I made that post. Telling.

Why do you assume that someone that thinks a dog should be able to breath when it is 30 degrees isn't a bb supporter? Anyone who thinks that is okay isn't a supporter of dogs at all I'll get accused of breeder bashing no doubt, but I hold ethical breeders in very high regard. Those breeding exaggerated features to the dertrimant of their dogs aren't amongst those.

[mixeduppup]

I wasn't thinking of the British bulldog when I made that post. Telling.

Why do you assume that someone that thinks a dog should be able to breath when it is 30 degrees isn't a bb supporter? Anyone who thinks that is okay isn't a supporter of dogs at all I'll get accused of breeder bashing no doubt, but I hold ethical breeders in very high regard. Those breeding exaggerated features to the dertrimant of their dogs aren't amongst those.

I have to agree that I am not a bb supporter. I recently had a AB stay with me for a few days, she was built a lot like a bb and it was 27 and she was stressed. I kept thinking she was going to die. She just laid on the cold tiles all day. Breeding a dog like that, with those health problems... definitely not my idea of positive evolution of dog breeding. I'm not a huge fan of the brachy dogs though.

Edited December 28, 2012 by mixeduppup

[megan_]

ETA: I'm sure there are healthy, well bred bulldogs out there and ethical breeders. I don't understand why the dodgies have been able to dominate.

[Sandra777]

ETA: I'm sure there are healthy, well bred bulldogs out there and ethical breeders. I don't understand why the dodgies have been able to dominate.

DO they dominate though. Where are your stats to prove this??

There's no TV news (or facebook drama) in a healthy dog with no issues.

Vets don't see the healthy dogs with no issues.

[mita]

In the UK, bulldogs are one of the breeds whose history & current state are the subjects of research and displays at the University of Manchester Museum.

An aim of the program is to contribute useful & reliable information to current debates about pedigree dogs & their health. The University has collaborated with numbers of sources....& that includes the Kennel Club and breeder members.

One segment is Meet the Breed, when breeders bring in their p/b dogs, show them to museum visitors & discuss current challenges in breeding.

There's also static displays of examples of the breeds over time up to 1950.

http://www.umg.org.uk/2012/12/10/manchester-museum-breed-the-british-and-their-dogs/

On the case study link, there's more detailed information about the project.

http://www.umg.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Manchester-Museum-Breed-case-study1.pdf

Great to see something being done, publicly, about pedigree dogs that is informative, balanced and drawing on a number of sources.

BTW Pekingese are among the breeds.

Review here:

http://www.culture24.org.uk/science%20%26%20nature/animals/art405760

Edited December 28, 2012 by mita

[melzawelza]

It is a sad day when everyone who dares question whether we have done the right thing by dogs is branded an AR nut.

I have no doubt that there are extremists out there, but the dog world has let this happen by burying their head in the sand and saying nothing is wrong, most dogs are okay etc. There is no doubt that some breeds are in very big trouble. Why not stand up and fix those issues rather than being in a constant state of denial. If a breed as a whole can't mate and give birth without medical intervention (a csection is major abdominal surgery) then surely we have gone too far? If a dog needs to be kept in sirconditioning lest it can't breath then there is an issue. It a significant number of dogs in a breed need eye surgery because of entropin (sp) then there is an issue. NIMBY doesn't solve these issues.

Well said Megan.

I agree. The group that will see the demise of the pedigree dog is the pedigree dog world that consistently excuses terrible breeding practices in some breeds, not the AR nuts (can't stand them either and don't deny their aim but they won't be the ones that achieve it.).

Edited December 28, 2012 by melzawelza

[mita]

It is a sad day when everyone who dares question whether we have done the right thing by dogs is branded an AR nut.

I have no doubt that there are extremists out there, but the dog world has let this happen by burying their head in the sand and saying nothing is wrong, most dogs are okay etc. There is no doubt that some breeds are in very big trouble. Why not stand up and fix those issues rather than being in a constant state of denial.

The 'dog world' is not collectively burying their 'head' in the sand. That's a generalization. Just the same as it's a generalization that all pedigree dogs are collectively dodgy.

[Jed]

Jed, I'm no AR nutter but there are quite a number of HSUS shelters in the States. The ones I have dealt with are extremely committed to animals in their care, fostering, rescue networks and adoption. Some of them even have special training/adoption programs for pit bull types where the legislation banning them has been repealed. Let's not make the same mistake of tarring everyone with the same brush.

The US shelters are not HSUS - they are state owned humane society shelters.

Megan, I didn't have issue with any poster in this thread I was just commenting on the situation.

However, you said

I have no doubt that there are extremists out there, but the dog world has let this happen by burying their head in the sand and saying nothing is wrong, most dogs are okay etc. There is no doubt that some breeds are in very big trouble. Why not stand up and fix those issues rather than being in a constant state of denial. If a breed as a whole can't mate and give birth without medical intervention (a csection is major abdominal surgery) then surely we have gone too far? If a dog needs to be kept in sirconditioning lest it can't breath then there is an issue. It a significant number of dogs in a breed need eye surgery because of entropin (sp) then there is an issue. NIMBY doesn't solve these issues.

The dog world never believed it was important enough for some organisation with zillions would try to close it. Don't make the mistake of thinking it is pedigree dogs, it is ALL dogs but pedigree are visible. Pit bulls were first, pedigree dogs were second.

You assert that some breeds are in very big trouble (bolded). Can you tell me what breeds, and what the trouble is please?

Some problems have been identified. Fixing a problem - even a small one - is not done in weeks or months, but in years. I understand bulldogs have been bred away from caesarians. To do that, you would need to breed from a dog, or dogs, which did not need caesars. It would then take 2 or 3 years to see if you had been successful. To see an overall improvement would take 10 - 20 years depending on the numbers bred.

I don't care any more - I used to once - I have a couple of excellent dogs, and I will be dead (or near to it) when they remove our right to own dogs.

You don't need to believe it Megan, you can believe whatever you like, but you need to realise that the dogs are on their way out - without some heroic efforts by the CC's breeders and the public, which wont happen because the public believes they are diseased and unhealthy.

It is a shame people don't have hindsight to see what has already happened to the dog world. You don't even have to look to the future to see what looms.

[Crisovar]

It is a sad day when everyone who dares question whether we have done the right thing by dogs is branded an AR nut.

I have no doubt that there are extremists out there, but the dog world has let this happen by burying their head in the sand and saying nothing is wrong, most dogs are okay etc. There is no doubt that some breeds are in very big trouble. Why not stand up and fix those issues rather than being in a constant state of denial.

The 'dog world' is not collectively burying their 'head' in the sand. That's a generalization. Just the same as it's a generalization that all pedigree dogs are collectively dodgy.

Every time these sort of discussions come up if anyone dares to state that there are actually many good Breeders out there heads down bum up doing what they have always done, which is breeding sound healthy happy dogs, someone has to accuse them of burying their head in the sand. The good Breeders know there are bad Breeders, Breeders on the whole are far more scathing of others doing the wrong thing than outsiders. Some here make it sound as if there is not one sound healthy dog of a Breed in existence. Meanwhile dedicated Breeders are involved in research for DNA tests, financially contributing as well as supplying samples and data, sharing information, publishing test results, expanding on bloodlines by importing animals semen, if that is doing nothing then what the hell are they doing?

[Steve]

It is a sad day when everyone who dares question whether we have done the right thing by dogs is branded an AR nut.

I have no doubt that there are extremists out there, but the dog world has let this happen by burying their head in the sand and saying nothing is wrong, most dogs are okay etc. There is no doubt that some breeds are in very big trouble. Why not stand up and fix those issues rather than being in a constant state of denial. If a breed as a whole can't mate and give birth without medical intervention (a csection is major abdominal surgery) then surely we have gone too far? If a dog needs to be kept in sirconditioning lest it can't breath then there is an issue. It a significant number of dogs in a breed need eye surgery because of entropin (sp) then there is an issue. NIMBY doesn't solve these issues.

Agreed.

[mita]

[Every time these sort of discussions come up if anyone dares to state that there are actually many good Breeders out there heads down bum up doing what they have always done, which is breeding sound healthy happy dogs, someone has to accuse them of burying their head in the sand. The good Breeders know there are bad Breeders, Breeders on the whole are far more scathing of others doing the wrong thing than outsiders. Some here make it sound as if there is not one sound healthy dog of a Breed in existence. Meanwhile dedicated Breeders are involved in research for DNA tests, financially contributing as well as supplying samples and data, sharing information, publishing test results, expanding on bloodlines by importing animals semen, if that is doing nothing then what the hell are they doing?

Yes. The breeding of pedigree dogs has the twin requirements of the technical and the welfare. And, like with any group, there'll be a range of how the people involved step up to the requirements... so you finish with a bell-shaped curve of extent to which individuals perform.

And you're right that the push towards ongoing improvements has resulted in collaborations that face & learn from issues. One good example is the efforts of the Norwegian Kennel Association & the University of Oslo:

http://www.actavetscand.com/content/50/S1/S6

Advances actually widen the gap across the bell-shaped curve. The poorest performers stand out like sore thumbs....as compared with the highest performers.... with most people distributed between.

[Jed]

Thanks for the interesting article from Norway, Mita.

They have it right ... and the 10 rules are the rules all breeders should follow and the good ones do follow. + basic knowledge of pedigrees and how to read them, and genetics should be a requirement.

Crisovar

Meanwhile dedicated Breeders are involved in research for DNA tests, financially contributing as well as supplying samples and data, sharing information, publishing test results, expanding on bloodlines by importing animals semen, if that is doing nothing then what the hell are they doing?

Pshwar!! Not good enough, definitely not good enough.

Steve, as you are in agreement with Megan, please tell me which breeds need airconditioning to survive in 30 degrees? Don't say pekingese.

There is far too much generalisation. Someone heard something from someone who read it in the paper and so it is passed on. But no one seems to know any stats about it.

My vet told me pugs' eyes fall out. On questioning, he told me he had never seen it happen, he had never been told by anyone he knew that they saw it happen. However, he knew it was true.

So don't tell me about unhealthy breeds, show me the money.

[Greylvr]

I wasn't thinking of the British bulldog when I made that post. Telling.

Why do you assume that someone that thinks a dog should be able to breath when it is 30 degrees isn't a bb supporter? Anyone who thinks that is okay isn't a supporter of dogs at all I'll get accused of breeder bashing no doubt, but I hold ethical breeders in very high regard. Those breeding exaggerated features to the dertrimant of their dogs aren't amongst those.

I have to agree that I am not a bb supporter. I recently had a AB stay with me for a few days, she was built a lot like a bb and it was 27 and she was stressed. I kept thinking she was going to die. She just laid on the cold tiles all day. Breeding a dog like that, with those health problems... definitely not my idea of positive evolution of dog breeding. I'm not a huge fan of the brachy dogs though.

I love BBs but its because I love them that I will never buy another. We had one and that poor guy couldnt go for a proper walk, and when it got hot had a very hard time. Thats when I decided that it was not right, no living thing should have to live like that because we think they are cute. I will never own another unless they can un do what has been done to them. Thats just my opinion though and I am sure some people love them just the way they are.

[Jed]

Thanks Greylvr. I suppose this was just a few years ago, and it was a registered bulldog? Sorry you had the experience.