Look What They Have Done To Our Dogs.

[Salukifan]

Not sure I'd do herding with a dog I was showing to title. Sheep can be bloody hard on dogs, especially young dogs. Plenty of people who work dogs for real reckon 'working' titles are no real test of a dog's real ability to work anyway.

A lot of yard dogs with huge titles don't actually do any real farm work.

Yep. And the fact that a dog will or won't chase a plastic bag says nothing about its ability to course game.

Is that how they test dogs for lure coursing?

That's what the lure generally is.

[mixeduppup]

Not sure I'd do herding with a dog I was showing to title. Sheep can be bloody hard on dogs, especially young dogs. Plenty of people who work dogs for real reckon 'working' titles are no real test of a dog's real ability to work anyway.

A lot of yard dogs with huge titles don't actually do any real farm work.

Yep. And the fact that a dog will or won't chase a plastic bag says nothing about its ability to course game.

Is that how they test dogs for lure coursing?

the lure is a plastic bag

oh, I didn't know that. I figured it would be a fake rabbit or something. You learn something new every day

[Rebanne]

Not sure I'd do herding with a dog I was showing to title. Sheep can be bloody hard on dogs, especially young dogs. Plenty of people who work dogs for real reckon 'working' titles are no real test of a dog's real ability to work anyway.

A lot of yard dogs with huge titles don't actually do any real farm work.

Yep. And the fact that a dog will or won't chase a plastic bag says nothing about its ability to course game.

Is that how they test dogs for lure coursing?

the lure is a plastic bag

oh, I didn't know that. I figured it would be a fake rabbit or something. You learn something new every day

still no real test of the dogs hunting ability, some won't chase a fake anything, or even a real skin. They will however chase proper live game.

[mixeduppup]

Not sure I'd do herding with a dog I was showing to title. Sheep can be bloody hard on dogs, especially young dogs. Plenty of people who work dogs for real reckon 'working' titles are no real test of a dog's real ability to work anyway.

A lot of yard dogs with huge titles don't actually do any real farm work.

Yep. And the fact that a dog will or won't chase a plastic bag says nothing about its ability to course game.

Is that how they test dogs for lure coursing?

the lure is a plastic bag

oh, I didn't know that. I figured it would be a fake rabbit or something. You learn something new every day

still no real test of the dogs hunting ability, some won't chase a fake anything, or even a real skin. They will however chase proper live game.

Same with some yard dogs, they'll work in a competition setting but you get them working for real and they choke.

[pebbles]

Kelpies are one of the working breeds where the standard of the WKC and the show standard are very similar, the wording exactly the same in most sections so wouldn't this follow that they should be the same conformation wise?

Rebanne - years ago knew a racing grey breeder. He kept a pup from a litter but she was very timid. I showed for about 10 months, won puppy class at Melbourne Royal against competition (Dear Kate's pups if you knew them). She then went back to the breeder and became a successful racer.

[mixeduppup]

Kelpies are one of the working breeds where the standard of the WKC and the show standard are very similar, the wording exactly the same in most sections so wouldn't this follow that they should be the same conformation wise?

Rebanne - years ago knew a racing grey breeder. He kept a pup from a litter but she was very timid. I showed for about 10 months, won puppy class at Melbourne Royal against competition (Dear Kate's pups if you knew them). She then went back to the breeder and became a successful racer.

Working instinct is much more important in the WKC than conformation or type. I see a variety of WKC reg kelpies all shapes and sizes, bred for different environments, work and stock types. One type of dog would not be as useful as multiple types have proven to be.

[Weasels]

so are there more colours or not? You said the colours are less restrictive and and only mention you like a red tri.

Cream is the other solid colour that can't be shown but is found on working kelpies.

Not sure I'd do herding with a dog I was showing to title. Sheep can be bloody hard on dogs, especially young dogs. .

The president of our herding club does both :) His show-line BCs show good instinct and ability.

--

A few of the bench kelpie breeders advertise their dogs as show + agility prospects rather than herding dogs. Which is what a lot of suburban kelpies will end up doing anyway since it can be hard to access stock in some places. Not their original purpose but I think they'd still be happy healthy awesome dogs :)

Edited December 25, 2012 by TheLBD

[pebbles]

mixeduppup, I live in sheep country and see many different looks in the working Kelpies. My point is the standards are very much the same and I imagine the WKC have those standards to stress the importance of correct conformation for working ability and type. The show Kelpies should have the same conformation and type, not talking instinct here just the overall type.

[mixeduppup]

mixeduppup, I live in sheep country and see many different looks in the working Kelpies. My point is the standards are very much the same and I imagine the WKC have those standards to stress the importance of correct conformation for working ability and type. The show Kelpies should have the same conformation and type, not talking instinct here just the overall type.

I don't dispute that and of course conformation is important but the WKC seems to be more lenient in that area as it is made for working kelpies and adherence to a perfect type in lieu of working ability and/or functionality wouldn't make sense.

[Maddy]

Agree with Alyosha except I think she meant subjective not objective. Plus using greyhounds as an example of modern breeding that is not in trouble is wishful thinking at best. I'm speaking here not of show greyhounds but of the allegedly functional track greyhounds - some are bred well, many are bred just for speed and speed alone is not necessarily functional.

I agree that we need to hold our own to account where things have gone too far. In most of the groups there is a breed that needs to get its shit together. The fact that there are 30 other breeds in the group that are fine is usually overlooked tho'.

Provide some stats that suggest careless breeding (like.. 30% of show greyhounds carrying the gene for neuropathy- not being alive after 12 months definitely impacts on function) and then perhaps you'd have a valid argument. If being willing/able to chase well is not the breed's function, then I'm afraid I'm a little confused about what they're intended for. A dog needs to have drive, they need to have the ability to see that drive through. They are a hunting dog- see it, chase it, grab it. The vast majority of (racing bred) greyhounds I've dealt with have had sufficient drive and ability to do what they were intended for. Those that don't are not bred from.

To be blunt here, this argument makes me distrustful of people who breed for show. If they are unwilling to admit (when it is painfully obvious) that they need to go back several steps to address some major issues, then they are either unable to look objectively at their breed (in which case, they shouldn't be breeding) or they are knowingly ignoring the issues (in which case, they shouldn't be breeding).

[benshiva]

What is a barbie collie? I've never heard that expression.

A barbie collie is a term that is used to describe the way the classically marked show BCs all look the same. It is mainly used in the US on forums like the BC Boards.

ETA the show standard for BCs has no reference to marking other than the base colour must predominate so the classic markings are fashion not breed .

And it's used by nasty, ill informed people with no idea to bait and insult those who breed well structured, beautiful to look at Border Collies! They also need to actually LOOK at a lot of show Border Collies and get the nonsense out of their heads that they are ALL "perfectly" marked. What a crock. The majority do NOT have the "classic" markings!

Oooo should add I do NOT mean Janba here Just adding on to her comments xx

Edited December 25, 2012 by benshiva

[benshiva]

I have to say I'm not a fan of that term. I'm not big on the bench kelpies but I wouldn't trash the showers just because I don't like the line of dogs...

I wish there were more people with your attitude. Thank you

[benshiva]

I have to say I'm not a fan of that term. I'm not big on the bench kelpies but I wouldn't trash the showers just because I don't like the line of dogs...

I think it pays to remember that without the "show lines" many of the working breeds would have tiny gene pools and be unsuitable as pets. I appreciate that for some people that doesn't matter but it does to me. You can be passionate about your dog of choice without heaping shit on other people's.

Couldn't agree more!!! Some people just HAVE to be nasty to others just to feel good about themselves. I've never understood the nastiness of "some".

[Salukifan]

I've seen jaws on race bred Greyhounds that would render them unfit to course game. Breeding for speed above all other characteristics is no more balanced than breeding solely for coat length or colour. It is possible for either side of the show or working line equation to lose the plot.

[Crisovar]

I have to say I'm not a fan of that term. I'm not big on the bench kelpies but I wouldn't trash the showers just because I don't like the line of dogs...

I think it pays to remember that without the "show lines" many of the working breeds would have tiny gene pools and be unsuitable as pets. I appreciate that for some people that doesn't matter but it does to me. You can be passionate about your dog of choice without heaping shit on other people's.

Can we just keep bumping this

[Crisovar]

I've seen jaws on race bred Greyhounds that would render them unfit to course game. Breeding for speed above all other characteristics is no more balanced than breeding solely for coat length or colour. It is possible for either side of the show or working line equation to lose the plot.

Yes, it is just as well they don't have to actually catch their prey to eat, some of them look as if they would have enough trouble eating their food out of a bowl. The furphy about racing greys being sound and fit for purpose because they race is just that, they were never a breed bred for chasing a lure around a circular tack, they had to hunt and what we see today is a far cry from that.

The show ring certainly does not have the monopoly on poor breeding practices.

[BJean]

most whingers have no appreciation or understanding of what a working dog is, or how suburb house rearing differs to working rural rearing. they make comments ohhh ahh look at the difference, yet most of them could not handle, contain, or live with a working minded dog. yes there are differences and tweaks, big woop. Own what you like and keep it at that. Pet dogs change from their working counterparts because the pet home is not equipped for anything more. it's not a slight on the pet home, but reality of 21st century. look what they have done, look what we all have done. And hold off on the whinge. Because unless you breed or rear and deal with the public pet sector and legislators maybe it's not as simple as you write it should be :) Cheers hope everyone is enjoying their day of digest :) I'd be digesting more but one of the critters ate my guylian tray of chocolates! bah lucky I still have the chrissy cookies for my cuppa! :D

[Rebanne]

Agree with Alyosha except I think she meant subjective not objective. Plus using greyhounds as an example of modern breeding that is not in trouble is wishful thinking at best. I'm speaking here not of show greyhounds but of the allegedly functional track greyhounds - some are bred well, many are bred just for speed and speed alone is not necessarily functional.

I agree that we need to hold our own to account where things have gone too far. In most of the groups there is a breed that needs to get its shit together. The fact that there are 30 other breeds in the group that are fine is usually overlooked tho'.

Provide some stats that suggest careless breeding (like.. 30% of show greyhounds carrying the gene for neuropathy- not being alive after 12 months definitely impacts on function) and then perhaps you'd have a valid argument. If being willing/able to chase well is not the breed's function, then I'm afraid I'm a little confused about what they're intended for. A dog needs to have drive, they need to have the ability to see that drive through. They are a hunting dog- see it, chase it, grab it. The vast majority of (racing bred) greyhounds I've dealt with have had sufficient drive and ability to do what they were intended for. Those that don't are not bred from.

To be blunt here, this argument makes me distrustful of people who breed for show. If they are unwilling to admit (when it is painfully obvious) that they need to go back several steps to address some major issues, then they are either unable to look objectively at their breed (in which case, they shouldn't be breeding) or they are knowingly ignoring the issues (in which case, they shouldn't be breeding).

I've asked before where you get your stats about greyhound neuropathy and you nver answered. I am asking again. Where do you get your information from? Greyhounds are tested before being bred or cleared by parentage. Not a single breeder of show greyhounds I know is ignoring neuropathy.

Unlike the racing industry which will breed anything to anything in pursuit of the next big winner. I.E they don't care if the dog is blind by 7 from pannus, as long as it wins. Or the ones that suffer from arthritis by 5 because they were poorly conformed but they had the heart to run through the pain barrier, again and again. Not to mention the thousands detroyed before they get to the race track becuase they don't break in well enough or fast enough.

[Rebanne]

I've seen jaws on race bred Greyhounds that would render them unfit to course game. Breeding for speed above all other characteristics is no more balanced than breeding solely for coat length or colour. It is possible for either side of the show or working line equation to lose the plot.

oh yes, yes indeed and the chronic bad teeth that so many have. If not for their (usually pet owners) doing everything they could, how many would loose those teeth at an early age rendering them unable to hold their prey when they caught it. That's if they could eat enough food to keep them in peak condition. My heart dog Sam would walk away from his meals when his teeth hurt.

[mixeduppup]

I've seen jaws on race bred Greyhounds that would render them unfit to course game. Breeding for speed above all other characteristics is no more balanced than breeding solely for coat length or colour. It is possible for either side of the show or working line equation to lose the plot.

oh yes, yes indeed and the chronic bad teeth that so many have. If not for their (usually pet owners) doing everything they could, how many would loose those teeth at an early age rendering them unable to hold their prey when they caught it. That's if they could eat enough food to keep them in peak condition. My heart dog Sam would walk away from his meals when his teeth hurt.

I have to agree that negating conformation purely for working instinct is dangerous. You end up with a dog with great instinct but a body that won't let it perform properly.