The Spotted Devil Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) Show dogs and functional working dogs are both being bred. Show people can have the dogs and working people can have their working dogs. This is how I feel about it. Nothing wrong with dogs being fit for (whatever) purpose as long as they are healthy and sound. There are distinct differences between work/show lines in Gundogs but horses for courses. Coat is certainly a factor and there is a strong genetic element - you only have to look at w/line dogs that don't hunt. The majority of training for retrieving I do is on an oval and she is groomed daily just because I enjoy it but everyone thinks I clip her off! Again, I say, live and let live! I had the pleasure of attending a large ESS field trial in the US recently. The dogs were very handsome to my eye but, on the whole, much taller than UK style working ESS. A conscious decision because of the tall cover they have to work in. Again - fit for purpose. Edited December 25, 2012 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 You see it in working line kelpies as well, Bench are pretty much one type but working cover a wide range of body types to suit a wide range of stock and conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I found it interesting, but only really agree with the bone structure inferences- I don't think extra hair is a real issue. I don't know, extra hair can become a problem with herding a hunting breeds, overheating, hindering movement, collecting seeds and burrs etc and not being able to see. I think that's why the more extreme versions of some breeds should be kept in the show ring. By all means breed them if you want but they aren't built for their original purpose anymore. Everything is exaggerated beyond use. Which herding and hunting breeds are you speaking of, MUP? Collie roughs, bc, shetland, OESD. Not so much the hunting. Perhaps some of the gun dogs Is you seriously work those breeds, they don't grow profuse coats. I know of show BCs that have had huge coats then never grown a decent coat again if they take on serious herding work. You can have a big coated show dog and it's working litter mate with completely different coats. I have been in the breed long enough to remember when puppies went to both show and work homes from the same litter and the working ones never had a "show coat". It just doesn't grow. Also keep in mind that a lot of what you see coat wise in the show ring is grooming tricks. The coats look nothing like that at home between baths and shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I don't work them but I know enough about BCs to know that the lc show coat borders aren't used out here, short coated are bred for working mainly. Out here anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I admit I tend to enjoy the look of the dogs of 'olde' . What would be good, interesting and informative, however, would be the comments and information that would tell us what benefits the modern day bred dogs have over the 'olde worldy' dogs of same breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I always believed that dog show judges were supposed to judge the dogs against the standard, not each other. Has something changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) I can see it in some breeds yes, but this video seriously falls down in the sense that it is extremely objective and heavily biased, and is basically a tool for telling exactly the story they want it to tell. So in their efforts to tell their story they have shown some issues, and stretched others in order to prove their point, reducing their credibility. For example - the very start - Afghans. Seriously? Yes some modern ones carry too much coat. If they spent two weeks tearing around chasing hares instead of lounging indoors they would tear off the excessive bits and otherwise look the same. The video depicts an incorrect image of an "old fashioned" afghan. The one in the video is sketch of a plains, or "Bell-Murray" type afghan, not the mountain type from which the modern breed is descended. Below is the original model for the western standard, a dog called Zardin - imported to Great Britain in 1902. 13 years prior to the informative sketch in the video. Looks very different to the one in the video, yes? And structurally much closer to the modern one, yes? Yet another example of people trying to drive their point home at any cost. Consequently that point, and their message, gets lost. Then they looks like uninformed twits. Sad realy, because in some breeds they have a point. It just gets lost in the hype. A little objectivity goes a long way. Edited December 25, 2012 by Alyosha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greylvr Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I don't work them but I know enough about BCs to know that the lc show coat borders aren't used out here, short coated are bred for working mainly. Out here anyway Your right a lot of people prefer to not deal with the coats and working BCs dont get the same coat as barbie collies. I would never have dreamed of using a long coated BC while I was working on the cattle farm much too much to deal with and a barbie collie wouldnt be able to work the same way, wet hair can get heavy if your dog needs to run through mud or any type of water its going to get heavy with the barbie collies coats. I have yet to meet anyone who works a barbie collie in any fashion other than trials on nice fluffy grass. I always believed that dog show judges were supposed to judge the dogs against the standard, not each other. Has something changed? Some breeds its fads, I have had a dog pulled out by a judge and point out what a beautiful representation of the breed my dog was absolutely perfect in every way. She then placed her 3rd after a 90 pound dog when the breed standard reads that the preferred weight was a lot less than 90 pounds my girl was 37 pounds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melzawelza Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Some breeds are a problem. There is no denying that. I feel so sad when I see what the Neo Mastiffs have become, particularly compared to the old style. But it isn't a problem across the board with all pedigree dogs and shouldn't be made out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Agree with Alyosha except I think she meant subjective not objective. Plus using greyhounds as an example of modern breeding that is not in trouble is wishful thinking at best. I'm speaking here not of show greyhounds but of the allegedly functional track greyhounds - some are bred well, many are bred just for speed and speed alone is not necessarily functional. I agree that we need to hold our own to account where things have gone too far. In most of the groups there is a breed that needs to get its shit together. The fact that there are 30 other breeds in the group that are fine is usually overlooked tho'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Agree with Alyosha except I think she meant subjective not objective. Oh... yeah... I'll try to blame too much food and drink... trying to stay awake by computer-ing... :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melzawelza Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I agree that we need to hold our own to account where things have gone too far. In most of the groups there is a breed that needs to get its shit together. The fact that there are 30 other breeds in the group that are fine is usually overlooked tho'. I agree that the other breeds that are fine are overlooked. It's not a 'pedigree dog' problem but it certainly is an issue within some breeds (usually breeds that had or have statements in the standard that are open ended and encourage exaggeration). But I do think that too many in other groups and the system in general do not hold those problem breeds to account often or loudly enough. If the pedigree world as a whole is excusing this type of breeding it does then become a 'pedigree' problem in the eyes of the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhok Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Another thing to think about is that some of the pictures in that video are drawings and that fact alone isn't a good thing to base a decision on about the dog breeds changing as artist interpretation and skill come into play. The list of health problems that each breed has is a diversion tactic as when the breeds were being developed we didn't know hardly anything about canine health and lucky last is that how many people could actually live with a dog of their chosen breed if it was still being bred for the work they originally were bred to do? It's not just the outside of the dog that may have changed but also the different temperaments have changed as well. All those who say the long coated border collies aren't used for work and couldn't possible do the work they were bred for because of the coat do you understand that they were bred for working in the highlands on the border of England and Scotland so while they might not be fit for function working in the Australia they sure as hell can work in their native land same could be said for the other long coated breeds. It's kinda why we developed the Kelpie and the Aust Cattle dog both bred to work in our own land fit for the function for our conditions. Having said all that the video does point out some problems that do need addressing like the Neo Mastiffs etc. --Lhok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I said they are bred with short coats here, for this environment. Never disputed that they can't work in their native land or even areas of Aus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greylvr Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Another thing to think about is that some of the pictures in that video are drawings and that fact alone isn't a good thing to base a decision on about the dog breeds changing as artist interpretation and skill come into play. The list of health problems that each breed has is a diversion tactic as when the breeds were being developed we didn't know hardly anything about canine health and lucky last is that how many people could actually live with a dog of their chosen breed if it was still being bred for the work they originally were bred to do? It's not just the outside of the dog that may have changed but also the different temperaments have changed as well. All those who say the long coated border collies aren't used for work and couldn't possible do the work they were bred for because of the coat do you understand that they were bred for working in the highlands on the border of England and Scotland so while they might not be fit for function working in the Australia they sure as hell can work in their native land same could be said for the other long coated breeds. It's kinda why we developed the Kelpie and the Aust Cattle dog both bred to work in our own land fit for the function for our conditions. Having said all that the video does point out some problems that do need addressing like the Neo Mastiffs etc. --Lhok I think we are talking about the extra long extra fluffy coat we can also mention the heavier bone, and larger heads which make a bigger target. I will stand by my statement that Barbie collies would be in trouble actually working in the outdoors and not in places where the lawn is cut nice etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) I don't work them but I know enough about BCs to know that the lc show coat borders aren't used out here, short coated are bred for working mainly. Out here anyway Your right a lot of people prefer to not deal with the coats and working BCs dont get the same coat as barbie collies. I would never have dreamed of using a long coated BC while I was working on the cattle farm much too much to deal with and a barbie collie wouldnt be able to work the same way, wet hair can get heavy if your dog needs to run through mud or any type of water its going to get heavy with the barbie collies coats. I have yet to meet anyone who works a barbie collie in any fashion other than trials on nice fluffy grass. I always believed that dog show judges were supposed to judge the dogs against the standard, not each other. Has something changed? Some breeds its fads, I have had a dog pulled out by a judge and point out what a beautiful representation of the breed my dog was absolutely perfect in every way. She then placed her 3rd after a 90 pound dog when the breed standard reads that the preferred weight was a lot less than 90 pounds my girl was 37 pounds could you be anymore insulting with your constant references to barbie collies and they perfect dog has yet to be bred. Edited December 25, 2012 by Rebanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 What is a barbie collie? I've never heard that expression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) What is a barbie collie? I've never heard that expression. A barbie collie is a term that is used to describe the way the classically marked show BCs all look the same. It is mainly used in the US on forums like the BC Boards. ETA the show standard for BCs has no reference to marking other than the base colour must predominate so the classic markings are fashion not breed . Edited December 25, 2012 by Janba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Of course it might pay to remember that Australia is not the Border Collie's country of origin. The climate is a tad different in Scotland :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Of course it might pay to remember that Australia is not the Border Collie's country of origin. The climate is a tad different in Scotland :) I plan on one day going to Scotland and watching shepherds work their dogs over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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