Stalking/herding Behaviour In Kelpie

[Mogwai]

Just wondering if I could get some advice about my 2 year old kelpie who has a habit of stalking/herding other dogs and to a lesser extent people when out on a walk? He isn't aggressive but he gives a lot of hard eye, puts his head down, ears back and will pull/strain on his lead a bit, which understandably some people esp. with smaller dogs find intimidating and/or rude by canine etiquette standards. Is it possible to curb his instinct? I’ve been trying to get him to focus on me but honestly I just don’t know if I can give him anything that is more rewarding than this behaviour. On top of that his brain seems to just switch off anyway.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Mogwai

[Weasels]

Well you're right at the end - a kelpie in instinct mode might as well have their ears painted on

I know it's a big undertaking, but the best way to teach a sheep dog when not to herd is to teach them to herd (the proper way, not the way they want to). Are you anywhere near Erskine Park or another herding trainer?

If not, I'd work on interrupting the behaviour at the very first sign of it and redirecting to another game like tug or some targetting (while turning away from the the thing getting stalked). A dog locked in stalk mode might need a bit sharper treatment than normal, I use a "hey!" or a clap in front of their face if they are ignoring me which snaps mine out of it so we can go do something else.

Edited December 24, 2012 by TheLBD

[mixeduppup]

You need to give him proper herding lessons. A dog with that much natural instinct needs a proper outlet so that he doesn't have to herd everything else. One of my dogs, if left to her own devices and not used for work will herd everything that moves. If I take her down and give her some good "sheep time" in the yards she couldn't care less because she's had her fix.

[Mogwai]

Do you know of anywhere around Orange I could take him to do some herding?

[Kavik]

On a different note to other advice - have you done any work on getting him to focus on you? What training do you do with him?

[Are You Serious Jo]

A dog with strong drive won't switch off if given an opportunity to work, they just keep wanting to work if they find something they think needs moving. But giving them work is a way of teaching them commands for working and when to stop.

[persephone]

:) kelpies do need a 'job'..and those with such instincts like yours, definitely need ongoing training and work :)

[JulesP]

I find that most dogs don't seem very bothered by my dogs stalking them. They don't even seem to notice what my pair are up to. Stalking their Belgian Shepherd friends is their fav game. How are the other dogs reacting? If your dog is on a lead then no one has anything to be complaining about. Maybe take him off the path and get him to sit and focus on you. That is what I do if I can see there is potentially going to be problems.

If it is a person with a small white fluffy then I just make a bit of a joke 'it isn't a sheep' and move on.

[dasha]

The real solution is that you need to get control over all of his desires and dreams.

If he is never going to be a herding dog, thats fine, you need to be able to speak to him and he listens NO MATTER WHAT.

If a dog has strong instincts which he sounds like he does, if there is no intention of him being trained as a working dog, then it is best no to let him have the opportunity to express those chasing/working traits. Good obedience is more important.

Once you switch that instinct on, you need PERFECT recall and control of him or it may very well manifest into car chasing, cat chasing pushbikes going past, jogging people etc.

So think very carefully before allowing him to experience something you will never be able to satisfy in him.

That being said, he still needs an exercise and mental training regime that will keep his mind and body exercised. Depending on what you want to do, there is other sports you can do.

If you decide to try some sheep or cattle work, you need to get a 100% reliable recall first. If you have an average recall in general, it will prob drop to 10%recall when he is on stock. That is not good enough, both for his safety as well as the stock. You need to be able to call him off of things get too hectic or dangerous for the sheep or him.

[superminty]

Leslie McDevitt's "Look at That" game is an option. Having a strong eyed and quite predatory kelpie myself, I have found it very useful as it helps interrupt the predatory sequence (for herding breeds, it is truncated to eye, stalk, chase and back to eye again) and gives the dog another option to try other than move further though the sequence.

You do need to cue it far enough away from the trigger that the stalking behaviour hasn't started yet, if possible i.e. at alert stage, which comes before eye - i.e. the dog has just noticed the trigger. Once the dog understands the game, things often go a bit easier.

Edited December 24, 2012 by superminty

[Mogwai]

On a different note to other advice - have you done any work on getting him to focus on you? What training do you do with him?

I've done a fair bit of focus training with him using the 'watch' command, rewarding him for checking in, I'll take him out on his long line and wait for a moment when he isn't paying attention and run in the opposite direction (he has actually become quite good at making sure he doesn't 'lose' me). It definitely needs more work around distractions. I did take him to formal obedience for about a year, but found after making some progress he just started sliding backwards and getting more and more distracted by the other dogs and I felt that he was just habitualising bad habits. So now I use our walks to do some training, as well as some trick training at home.

Dogs really are his 'kryptonite' in terms of distractions. He would much rather herd and/or play with other dogs than listening to me. I've struggled to find a motivator for him as food just doesn't really cut it when he is excited and unfortunately he has no interest in tugging. Unfortunately I don't know much about it but I think he would probably benefit from training in drive.

The real solution is that you need to get control over all of his desires and dreams.

If he is never going to be a herding dog, thats fine, you need to be able to speak to him and he listens NO MATTER WHAT.

If a dog has strong instincts which he sounds like he does, if there is no intention of him being trained as a working dog, then it is best no to let him have the opportunity to express those chasing/working traits. Good obedience is more important.

Once you switch that instinct on, you need PERFECT recall and control of him or it may very well manifest into car chasing, cat chasing pushbikes going past, jogging people etc.

So think very carefully before allowing him to experience something you will never be able to satisfy in him.

That being said, he still needs an exercise and mental training regime that will keep his mind and body exercised. Depending on what you want to do, there is other sports you can do.

If you decide to try some sheep or cattle work, you need to get a 100% reliable recall first. If you have an average recall in general, it will prob drop to 10%recall when he is on stock. That is not good enough, both for his safety as well as the stock. You need to be able to call him off of things get too hectic or dangerous for the sheep or him.

His recall is something I try to reinforce every time I take him out. I certainly wouldn't say it is 100% but most of the time I can call him away from whatever he is fixating on.

I should mention that aside from this issue he doesn't really 'suffer' from any stereotypical bored working dog behaviours. He is a calm house dog and I can have him sit quietly under a table at an outside cafe etc.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Mogwai

[Kavik]

I agree with superminty that LAT or another automatic attention game would be better than a cued 'watch' command, I have found it to be much more effective for dealing with unwanted behaviours. My 2 love food, but to use any motivator when the dog is highly aroused you have to work with it first so that the dog can think and pay attention when that aroused, you have to start small.

I think some work on getting him to focus on working for you/with you would help, using either food or toys. I have found it is more than teaching a 'watch' command :laugh: and it has taken me a while to sort out with my fellow (he had a tendency to run out of the ring in agility, sometimes to visit people)

Edited December 24, 2012 by Kavik

[Mogwai]

I agree with superminty that LAT or another automatic attention game would be better than a cued 'watch' command, I have found it to be much more effective for dealing with unwanted behaviours. My 2 love food, but to use any motivator when the dog is highly aroused you have to work with it first so that the dog can think and pay attention when that aroused, you have to start small.

I think some work on getting him to focus on working for you/with you would help, using either food or toys. I have found it is more than teaching a 'watch' command :laugh: and it has taken me a while to sort out with my fellow (he had a tendency to run out of the ring in agility, sometimes to visit people)

I had quick search for the look at that game superminty mentioned. So if I've understood it correctly, I would start the behaviour far away from other dogs so as to keep him under the threshhold, mark for looking and treat when he returns his focus to me (or would I mark and treat at the same time as he returns his attention to me)?

Edited December 24, 2012 by Mogwai

[sheena]

Best way to mark is with a clicker....make sure he knows the value of the click before you start. You click the exact second he looks at the other dogs & if he knows the value of the clicker he will immediately turn to you & you treat him. If he doesn't turn to you when you click, then you are too close to the distractioin & you need to add more distance. Make sure you click as soon as he looks & before he reacts to the objects. If you have taught your dog tricks using the clicker to shape his behaviour, then the LAT game is far more successful, then just marking with "yes". LAT then becomes another one of his tricks & he will get fun out of offering it to you...if you understand where I am coming from :)

ETA...your dog is what they call a "sticky dog" & I put a thread up about that not long ago in this section, if you do a search for it.

Here is the link to it here Sticky Dog Syndrome

Edited December 24, 2012 by sheena

[Kavik]

You also might want to look at this thread on focus

http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/244651-how-do-you-teach-focus/

[Nekhbet]

Best way to mark is with a clicker....make sure he knows the value of the click before you start. You click the exact second he looks at the other dogs & if he knows the value of the clicker he will immediately turn to you & you treat him. If he doesn't turn to you when you click, then you are too close to the distractioin & you need to add more distance

Wouldn't you mark the dog looking at you and ignoring the target? Chuck the clicker you have your voice, a simple YES when he looks up at you and reward would do the trick and constantly reinforce looking at the owner. It's why I dont put a command on focus - it becomes a trick that can be ignored, then what can you do about it ... not much. If you expect your dog to look at you constantly as a way of life and keep reinforcing it, the process is easier, especially for more novice owners.

[megan_]

for LAT you mark the dog looking at the object, they then redirect to you got the reward. It is not a watch command. Nothing wrong with a clicker - great for marking an exact moment in time without emotion in your voice. I use both verbal markers and a clicker for different things.

[sheena]

Best way to mark is with a clicker....make sure he knows the value of the click before you start. You click the exact second he looks at the other dogs & if he knows the value of the clicker he will immediately turn to you & you treat him. If he doesn't turn to you when you click, then you are too close to the distractioin & you need to add more distance

Wouldn't you mark the dog looking at you and ignoring the target? Chuck the clicker you have your voice, a simple YES when he looks up at you and reward would do the trick and constantly reinforce looking at the owner. It's why I dont put a command on focus - it becomes a trick that can be ignored, then what can you do about it ... not much. If you expect your dog to look at you constantly as a way of life and keep reinforcing it, the process is easier, especially for more novice owners.

It's called counter-conditioning & it's teaching the dog that is "quite OK to look, but look back at me & tell me" & the clicker is a precise & instant marker of a particular movement by the dog, which may be a very small movement but is important in the big picture & is therefor marked with the clicker followed by a treat. When you click you ALWAYS treat, so the clicker ALWAYS has value to the dog..even if you click by mistake you should follow it with a treat. Using the word "yes" in place of the clicker, means for it to have the same value as the clicker, you must ALWAYS treat when you say "yes" otherwise the word will lose it's value. Done properly with LAT you will eventually get MORE focus from the dog than merely using Look at Me, because it becomes a game with the dog to immediately look at you when he sees whatever it is you are counter-conditioning him too. In the case of my own dog it is anything that has motion eg. dogs running & her obsession with small dogs.

I also use the word "yes" to mark a correct behaviour, but it's just to let her know she has done the right thing, like go in the right end of the tunnel or entered the weave poles correctly. I don't treat after using "yes" it is letting her know that it's OK to continue & that I am pleased with her. If I started treating her, when I said "yes", she would be coming out of the tunnel or the weaves to look for the treat, which of course I don't want to happen. :)

Edited December 25, 2012 by sheena

[Mogwai]

Sticky would definitely describe me dog! It would really be great if we could overcome this because it is really impeding his progress.

I have conditioned him to both the word "yes" (i.e yes means treat)and the clicker, but is the clicker better to start with as the sound cuts through a little better?

I started a bit of the LAT training on todays walk (as well as some using a toy yesterday). I think I failed today! There was just too much going on around us today and I stuggled to keep him under the threshold (which apparently is only about a football field). Is it ok to use the treat to lure his focus back to me or should I just move further away?

Is it good to 'jackpot' so the dog doesn't immediately go back to looking or in this case does it not matter?

Edited December 25, 2012 by Mogwai

[superminty]

I have conditioned him to both the word "yes" (i.e yes means treat)and the clicker, but is the clicker better to start with as the sound cuts through a little better?

It's personal preference, I find the clicker is more precise, but then I use both as markers, just slightly differently from each other (more like sheena was describing). I have a habit of getting flies caught in my throat, so a verbal marker is not always precise for me :laugh:

Is it ok to use the treat to lure his focus back to me or should I just move further away?

Is it good to 'jackpot' so the dog doesn't immediately go back to looking or in this case does it not matter?

Dont lure, move further away - IMO, the look back behavour is stronger if the dog works it out on his own. Getting the dog to understand the game is the hardest bit of this, you'll be able to move closer pretty quickly once he understands what you want.

My thoughts on jackpotting - a few treats, delivered one after the other, to keep his attention on you for a little longer might help, but to me it says you are too close to start with. Oh, and use really good treats! I'd only do this the first few times I try the game though, or if there is no way to get him under threshold (happens, I know).

But really, if you are under threshold, it is ok if he goes back to looking, provided it doesn't become a stare/eye behaviour.

Edited December 25, 2012 by superminty