Stalking/herding Behaviour In Kelpie

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Mogwai I don't think it is matter of him knowing how to heel. He can heel quite well with good focus on me but we come unstuck around distractions. It is really his whole outlook on environmental stimuli that we struggle with.

Your notion of 'understanding' is different to mine. A dog that cannot follow a command under distraction is (in my opinion) a dog that does not understand what heel means.

There are different means in which to teach this, but I recommended the Koehler Method specifically because it teaches the dog by using distractions as cues to focus.

But as I said, there are different ways to teach this - each to his own.

[Kavik]

Posted by Mogwai I don't think it is matter of him knowing how to heel. He can heel quite well with good focus on me but we come unstuck around distractions. It is really his whole outlook on environmental stimuli that we struggle with.

Your notion of 'understanding' is different to mine. A dog that cannot follow a command under distraction is (in my opinion) a dog that does not understand what heel means.

There are different means in which to teach this, but I recommended the Koehler Method specifically because it teaches the dog by using distractions as cues to focus.

But as I said, there are different ways to teach this - each to his own.

I also think it depends on your aim - how you want your dog working with you and walking with you, and what type of methods you wish to use. I like the ears up, tail up, engaged, happy look I get when working my dog with rewards. I'm not sure that a Kelpie would work as well using Koehler.

[itsadogslife]

I also think it depends on your aim - how you want your dog working with you and walking with you, and what type of methods you wish to use. I like the ears up, tail up, engaged, happy look I get when working my dog with rewards. I'm not sure that a Kelpie would work as well using Koehler.

That is very true Kavik, I desire a relaxed, calm, well mannered dog. I know what Kelpies are like, I have a very highly driven Kelpie. If Mogwai wishes to train his dog for competition, if he likewise wishes to train in drive then he should seek those methods that will bring about his desired outcome.

But that wasn't as far as I can see what Mogwai was concerned about. It seems to me that Mogwai needs to lower the drive of his/her dog, at least on casual walks.

[Kavik]

I think that depends on what the owner wants to do - I think engagement work and providing a drive outlet, and a game liket LAT would work, rather than quashing the dog's drive. But like you said, you like your dog to walk calmly, I like that mine are bouncy and keen. If I want calm I can always walk my GSD :laugh: I like a bit of energy with my Kelpies. Even my 13 year old Kelpie has a good spring to her.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Kavik

[Aidan3]

Another troubleshoot question for the LAT:

We've been practising at home with a toy and he seems to have the concept down. But if I try on a dog at the park he just isn't interested in what I've got. I can use roast chicken and get over a 100m away and he will still just stand there and stare. It's like if he can even see another dog that is enough to put him over the threshold. Am I moving too fast and increasing the criteria too much? Should I forget about other dogs for the time being?

And even when he is in a calm state he seems like he could take or leave the food anyway. I just really wish I knew how to motivate my dog.

Start off by getting him used to working enthusiastically for food at home. You need to teach him this first, cut his meals in half and use the other half for training.

I mostly just use normal food. It is consistent and healthy, and a good barometer for whether they are ready to be working in that environment or not. 'Make haste slowly' was the advice my mentor gave me.

There really are no dogs who are not motivated by food (unless they are sick). Evolution knocked all the non-food motivated dogs out thousands of years ago.

[corvus]

Mogwai, I think you should embrace the boring foundation side of Control Unleashed. Games like LAT for some dogs are not really appropriate until you've done the basics with them. Things like the relaxation protocol, whiplash turns and leave it, default behaviours and automatic reorienting to you after going through a door and the likes. When these are second nature, they will all come to your rescue when you get out into the real world and face exciting things. It doesn't take that long if you are dedicated, and if you do it straight off the mark you will get the maximum effect of CU later down the track when you start playing the games.

I expect the reason why your dog can't do things like heeling on cue when he's faced with an exciting environment has more to do with high arousal than anything. There are lots of gems in CU about bringing arousal down and being able to cue your dog to calm themselves. Teaching your dog to take a breath on cue has been hugely useful to us.

Here's a video of Leslie demonstrating some of the games with her dogs. It shows how attentive they are to her. This attentiveness doesn't come just from playing things like LAT. It comes from a lot of foundation work getting the dogs used to paying attention to her and being rewarded for doing so.

ETA And Aidan's advice for getting your dog working for food is great. In the past I've started with really good food in a quiet, safe environment and used that as my foot in the door. It takes very little time to get a dog working for any kind of food that way IME. Like, a week or less. Taking it on the road is a delicate matter. Start off asking for really, really easy things regardless of what you know they can do at home. Like whiplash turns. Move slowly to harder or longer behaviours. Don't get frustrated if it falls apart. Just go backwards a step or two and take it more slowly still.

Edited December 28, 2012 by corvus

[Guest RosieFT]

Perfect thread for my question!

I took Rosie for a walk and there was an off leash kelpie/kelpie cross. It was about 25m from us and walking with owner away from where we were. The dog then saw Rosie and locked on her like a heat seeking missile, dropped its head and froze. Ignored owner, who just kept walking away.

It really freaked me out LOL. I was thinking, ok this is kelpie stalk mode... but still it was intimidating me. I left Rosie on leash and walked in the opposite direction, I turned around and it was slowly following us with this odd pose, and eye intensity - if looks could kill.... owner then, turns around and walks back to and past dog to follow us, as dog was not following owner.

Rosie had low hackles raised and obviously couldn't read this dog.

I was nervous about it and so turned 90 degrees and walked away from it.

Should I not have been concerned?

[megan_]

I would be concerned simply because stalking behaviour can intimidate your dog - it looks exactly the same as prey drive.

[Weasels]

I would be concerned about any off-leash dog that the owner couldn't recall. Yes this dog may have had a truncated prey instinct, but then it may not have, and may not apply it to everything. Chess understands that sheep and ducks are for herding, but anything smaller like a mouse and it's all prey drive.

[Kavik]

Lots of dogs don't like being 'eyed' by another, including Kaos. I am always concerned if the owner can't recall or adequately control their dog.

[Mogwai]

Another troubleshoot question for the LAT:

We've been practising at home with a toy and he seems to have the concept down. But if I try on a dog at the park he just isn't interested in what I've got. I can use roast chicken and get over a 100m away and he will still just stand there and stare. It's like if he can even see another dog that is enough to put him over the threshold. Am I moving too fast and increasing the criteria too much? Should I forget about other dogs for the time being?

And even when he is in a calm state he seems like he could take or leave the food anyway. I just really wish I knew how to motivate my dog.

Start off by getting him used to working enthusiastically for food at home. You need to teach him this first, cut his meals in half and use the other half for training.

I mostly just use normal food. It is consistent and healthy, and a good barometer for whether they are ready to be working in that environment or not. 'Make haste slowly' was the advice my mentor gave me.

There really are no dogs who are not motivated by food (unless they are sick). Evolution knocked all the non-food motivated dogs out thousands of years ago.

Aside from a hungry dog are there any other things I can do to increase food motivation?

Mogwai, I think you should embrace the boring foundation side of Control Unleashed. Games like LAT for some dogs are not really appropriate until you've done the basics with them. Things like the relaxation protocol, whiplash turns and leave it, default behaviours and automatic reorienting to you after going through a door and the likes. When these are second nature, they will all come to your rescue when you get out into the real world and face exciting things. It doesn't take that long if you are dedicated, and if you do it straight off the mark you will get the maximum effect of CU later down the track when you start playing the games.

I expect the reason why your dog can't do things like heeling on cue when he's faced with an exciting environment has more to do with high arousal than anything. There are lots of gems in CU about bringing arousal down and being able to cue your dog to calm themselves. Teaching your dog to take a breath on cue has been hugely useful to us.

Here's a video of Leslie demonstrating some of the games with her dogs. It shows how attentive they are to her. This attentiveness doesn't come just from playing things like LAT. It comes from a lot of foundation work getting the dogs used to paying attention to her and being rewarded for doing so.

ETA And Aidan's advice for getting your dog working for food is great. In the past I've started with really good food in a quiet, safe environment and used that as my foot in the door. It takes very little time to get a dog working for any kind of food that way IME. Like, a week or less. Taking it on the road is a delicate matter. Start off asking for really, really easy things regardless of what you know they can do at home. Like whiplash turns. Move slowly to harder or longer behaviours. Don't get frustrated if it falls apart. Just go backwards a step or two and take it more slowly still.

What would be the best way to manage any unwanted behaviour in the mean time while I solidfy the foundation work?

And thanks everyone for the replies. :D

[The Spotted Devil]

A few ideas of the top of my head to increase food motivation:

Mix up your treats - type and value (try getting some blood sausage, cutting it into tiny pieces and microwaving it. Smells disgusting but have not seen a dog refuse it :D )

Mix up how you deliver them - I find throwing food is brilliant but also running to a "bait plate" with the dog also great.

Positive isn't permissive - reward frequently with tiny pieces but be conscious of what you are rewarding. Increase criteria and expectations as the dog improves and decrease criteria when distractions increase

Don't "lump" behaviours. Split them down into their tiny parts - also allows you to reward frequently.

Try some shaping - change the dog's perspective on earning rewards - engage the brain!

Nearly forgot - if your Kelpie loves herding the soccer ball you can incorporate that. So, ask for something simple - e.g. a sit - reward with food then release to play with the soccer ball for a brief period. Remove the soccer ball if you have to and ask for a behaviour and repeat. I did this with Zig initially - but marking his territory was his reward. Not only did Zig start to offer behaviours (rather than be called back) he started to associate the food with being released to sniff so it was a win-win. Eventually I back chained the tug to food as well - a well known agility trainer (Susan Garrett) doesn't like this idea but I'm not sure why as it has worked well for us. I think she commented that it requires very good timing. I do have good timing so not sure how difficult it would be for someone with bad timing. But then all training is difficult without good timing!!!

Edited December 28, 2012 by The Spotted Devil

[Kavik]

Running with food and delivering the food while you are moving is good, and running and changing direction suddenly with food, throwing food, restraining and making use of opposition reflex is awesome (for both food and toys), restrained recall etc. I've found being active helps to keep the dog's attention on me in exciting evironments. Keeps you fit too :laugh:

[Aidan3]

Another troubleshoot question for the LAT:

We've been practising at home with a toy and he seems to have the concept down. But if I try on a dog at the park he just isn't interested in what I've got. I can use roast chicken and get over a 100m away and he will still just stand there and stare. It's like if he can even see another dog that is enough to put him over the threshold. Am I moving too fast and increasing the criteria too much? Should I forget about other dogs for the time being?

And even when he is in a calm state he seems like he could take or leave the food anyway. I just really wish I knew how to motivate my dog.

Start off by getting him used to working enthusiastically for food at home. You need to teach him this first, cut his meals in half and use the other half for training.

I mostly just use normal food. It is consistent and healthy, and a good barometer for whether they are ready to be working in that environment or not. 'Make haste slowly' was the advice my mentor gave me.

There really are no dogs who are not motivated by food (unless they are sick). Evolution knocked all the non-food motivated dogs out thousands of years ago.

Aside from a hungry dog are there any other things I can do to increase food motivation?

Just take it one step at a time, which is a whole lot faster than taking two steps at a time :) Start in your back yard. Start with silly tricks and simple stuff that they already know. Then move to the front yard. More silly tricks.

Work in short, productive bursts with a high rate of reinforcement (reward often for small improvements). Train frequently.

[corvus]

What would be the best way to manage any unwanted behaviour in the mean time while I solidfy the foundation work?

That's a really hard question to answer without seeing the dog. Ultimately it's up to you to decide how bad it is and what compromises you are willing to make. In an ideal world, a good way to manage anything is to stay well away from any circumstance where it may occur in the first place. If you can give your dog sufficient exercise and mental stimulation without bumping into things that get him over-excited, that would be wonderful. You can try taking him out very early or late to try for quieter times, for example. Personally, I would be unlikely to sacrifice mental stimulation for avoiding potential trouble. If he gets stir crazy he will probably be worse.

You will probably have to deal with him popping into stalk mode anyway, even if you try to avoid other dogs. There are a few strategies that might help to break his focus or reduce the intensity of his reactions.

- Walking in an arc away from the other dog so you're steadily but not suddenly increasing the distance.

- Wait him out in the one spot (not recommended if it takes him more than, say, a minute to stop straining or whatever and try something new).

- Body block, putting yourself or another obstacle between him and whatever he's staring at so he can't see it anymore and try to back him out while continuing to block his view.

- A head collar may be useful in breaking his focus and moving him in another direction, but you would have to get him used to wearing one first, which might take some counter-conditioning and desensitisation. You could use two leashes so you only touch the head collar one when you really need it. Some front attach harnesses might be similarly helpful but without the need for a lot of CC. IME they aren't great for steering dogs, although better than a leash on a flat or martingale collar.

Other people with reactive dogs might have some better ideas. It's very difficult and goes against the grain to give advice about what might be acceptable rather than what might be ideal. No one here can tell you what will be best for you and your dog. You have to decide for yourself what you can or should do and what you won't or shouldn't.

[skip]

Mogwai.. How are you going with your kelpie?

I have a 12 month old kelpie, and what a first year it's been. I am not used to working dogs but luckily have access to some experienced help.

My dog will work for food in most cases. However I am taught mainly by trainers who want ( basically insist) that tugging be the main re inforcement. My dog will work with both BUT during our walks each day, herding behavior will tend to creep in. She likes working at a distance so much that agility will be interesting. I'll say tunnel and she could end up 2 courses over! I have always tried to watch that my dog doesn't become obsessive about anything in particular. We play with balls and a frisbee but I watch that she gets a bit of everything while tugging is our main game.

When Jade is wanting to watch another dog ( more due to a nervous re action at times ) or more commonly, wanting to herd my smaller kelpie x - ALL food desire goes out the window. You could poke food into her and she'd spit it out. She notices everything and will fixate on lots of things she finds weird like a lady on a walker, a jogger lying down pedalling in the air, etc.

My trainer follows the Susan Garrett Ruff Love idea basically and one of the first things she had suggested when my pup was still much younger was a halti ( gentle leader to be exact). We use food to teach heeling etc but as the dog grows they like watching what is going on around them so much more. Food doesn't rate when the environment is so much more rewarding and easy to enjoy. I had always disliked halti's and didn't use them, my smaller dogs always focused on me. My kelpie was another story, life was so exciting. I introduced the halti as I was taught and this is a slow carefull procedure. It meant that she couldn't decide to look about where- ever she liked and I controlled her head as well. She was no longer able to self reward by looking about or pulling. She was also rewarded with food while wearing the halti. Put a halti on her and her response became much calmer and she was clever enough that no force except 2 fingers on the lead was ever needed.

The halti was only used as an aid and she doesn't wear it ATM althou if warranted I'd use it again. I did have CU and a few other good books to help me in the earlier days. I did LAT but mainly to get her to look at scary stuff and be rewarded,not sure how it would help with stickiness.

We have built a lot of foundation stuff but control is always something we work on. One of my biggest training tools is finding what she wants the most and using that as the reward. She wants to go off lead, give me something at heel, impress me. She wants to jump thru a tree or go out the back gate, give me a something like a nose touch or a drop. She really likes to go round trees and "balance" them, I let her do this if she does some other stuff I want first. I recall her constantly only to let her go back (like a bat outa hell) on a verbal release. She offers some behaviors like getting on cement blocks,paws on poles and paws on the crossings button to earn food as well. In fact if she checks in from off lead to my side she might get a treat if I notice her. I find she wants to do something on a walk, I just need to make sure it's my idea, otherwise she'd find something to do.

But its hard and I'm not that crash hot. If I ask her to come and its not 100% , she's back on lead. I try to make recalls fun by doing thru the legs each side or whatever I can think of. She could get another chance later to do it better. She likes to run at my slower small dog, probably to piss him off so he runs with her and that is a big no No. On lead for that althou if she is just starting to crouch and stalk I use this chance to get a "stop", a drop and reward that instead. Once released she's forgotten to get the other dog. Sometimes I simply nick off or distract her momentarily to break the stalk pose.

BUt its hard, some days I think we've lost it and then she stuns me with her good behavior. One day something is a big problem and the next week, its gone away. So don't worry, least we can always get more chances to change the behavior.

So I'd be very interested in how you are getting along.

I was also happy to hear that some think herding is a good idea. I plan on agility but she was made to herd. I was told with her, herding could cause more problems. Still considering what to do with that.

[skip]

Double post sorry. Must be bedtime :)

Edited January 4, 2013 by skip

[Kavik]

Hi skip

Great to hear an update on Jade :) Hopefully get to see you at some trials this year?

[Weasels]

Sounds like you are doing great Skip, especially with such a young dog! I'm sure you will have many many happy years of a great dog and relationship for the work you are putting in now :)