Stalking/herding Behaviour In Kelpie

[Cosmolo]

That's what we do too Aidan, except we use a verbal instead of the clicker.

[Aidan3]

The reason that I shun 'interrupt' or 'distract' is because I really want people to be mindful that they are reinforcing something.

Plus, it can lead to the "but he's more interested in..." argument. If we teach people what reinforcement really means, we don't get that argument. Suddenly we discover that actually, their dog is interested in food, and it doesn't matter that there are distractions around.

[sheena]

Just to add to what Corvus has already said. One of the problems with traditional focus/ look at me type training is that it depends on the dog remaining looking at the handler. Most handlers (and me as a trainer actually) WANT the dog to be able to look around and to look at things like dogs and people WITHOUT going down a reactive/ predatory/ aggressive/ panic type response. And when you think about it- for many dogs focusing on the handler instead of the stimulus is a form of avoidance. I don't want the dogs to feel as though they need to avoid the stimulus- the more LAT you do, the more the dog has the ability to cope with the stimulus instead of avoid it. This type of reward history then really pays off when critical distance is badly breached- it raises the dogs threshold/ tolerance.

I do use the word interupt when i talk about LAT- simply because the process of LAT interupts the normal 'bad' behavioural sequence (simple eg- look- lunge- growl- snap)before it becomes inappropriate.

To answer the question what happens when you are without your clicker/ marker? The dog offers the behaviour themselves- look at stimulus, look at you and you reward them any way you can! But with very reactive dogs i strongly encourage owners to take rewards often if not always and actively look for opportunities to reward. In my experience this maintains the appropriate behaviour and hand in hand emotional response much better than traditional focus and/ or compulsion alone.

Good post Cosmolo...the clicker is used both as a marker & an interupter with LAT. In agility especially, you don't want the dog to be 100% handler focused. You want it to be able to switch between handler & obstacle focus & that's where LAT comes in very handy. And yes, you can use other things as rewards, like pats, toys & praise, but they are not as instant as a yummy soft treat. I try not to go out anywhere without treats & a clicker, as I don't want to miss an opportunity to practice.

[corvus]

Thanks for the feedback, folks. It is very helpful to know if I'm pitching things at the right level.

Thought I would mention that another problem with lots of exclusive "watch me" is that it can mask emotional issues. For example, Erik can get through a lot of things as long as he's doing something I've told him to do. It usually involves him staring at my face and fiercely ignoring whatever it is that has unsettled him. Sometimes to the extent that if I cue LAT he is resistant to doing it. Superficially, it looks like "Oh wow, look at that dog's phenomenal focus." but really it's "Oh dear, that dog is so keen to actively avoid that thing he won't even look at it." I suppose for me, it's an acceptable way to get him through a situation where he is really too close for comfort and there's nothing I can do about it and I'm happy enough to reinforce it in those situations as a management tool, but it doesn't change how he feels about the trigger much at all. While he's staring at me, no doubt his little heart is pounding and that puts him right up to his threshold so the slightest thing will tip him over the edge and see him unravel, which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid him doing. What's more, he's not experiencing a nice, calm state around the trigger, which is what I do what him doing, as that's what will help him change his association with it and therefore make him much easier to manage and a happier, better adjusted dog. What I really want to see from Erik is a good long look so I can see he is gathering the information he wants calmly and appropriately. As opposed to his cattle herding way, which tends to involve him barking and rushing at things. Lots of LAT glances tells me he is coping, but not well. Refusing to look tells me he is barely coping. LAT on cue only tells me he is coping well, and responding to a LAT cue with a long look tells me he has it together and is well in control of himself. Very nice. If he was just watching me all the time I think I would find it harder to pinpoint where he's at and adjust how I'm managing him as a result.

[corvus]

Teaching LAT is easy if you focus on what the dog's job is. Erik's job is to tell me he's noticed something by stopping and looking at it. Quietly. So if I see him doing that, I mark and reward. These days I don't so much because he's an old hand, but he'll get a "good boy" to tell him I've noticed he's doing a good job and thanks for telling me you saw something weird/spooky/exciting and normal coping rules apply. It helped me a lot to get ahead of him and reinforce responses of acceptable intensity that happened BEFORE he started doing something more problematic.

[huski]

I think it's important to teach our dogs how to behave outside of when we are directly training them. All my dogs are really great when interacting with me but they also need to learn how to behave outside of a structured training session. I commit time to teaching them how to chill out and have an off switch when it's not time to play with me, how to go for a walk and stay chilled and calm etc. there are times with the Mal that I wouldn't use food with her as it will make her too excited and aroused so good behaviour is rewarded with my attention and pats etc. I find it especially important with driven dogs to make sure they learn how to switch off and chill out. Part of that is making sure they learn that they will get drive satisfaction with me when I tell them that is what we are doing but I also have a command for "we are just going for a walk and chilling out now".

[Weasels]

As much as I love CU, the last couple of trainers I have discussed this with recommended starting with a more basic classical conditioning approach then moving to LAT when the dog has some control to move into the operant sphere. With Weez's reactivity we just did bar open/bar closed for a while (Look a scary thing! Have a bunch of treats and praise! Aww the scary thing left, everything is boring again) without asking any behaviour of him. I think this is an easier starting point because the timing is less precise, and it builds the confidence of both owner and dog so they are more comfortable before asking both to engage their brains - so it's easier for us average joe owners. Not sure how far past threshold the OP's dog is, but this worked for us :)

Couldn't agree more about teaching the off-switch, I think Chess get more out of our walks now that she understands "have a rest" and can go sniff/roll/be a dog for a while instead of just staring at me for a ball-throw the whole time!

Edit - one other problem we had with LAT in the early stage was that for a dog on a hair trigger with a well-practiced behaviour, I didn't always know whether he was over threshold/'stuck' until he didn't respond to the click. The CC work we did broke that immediate response enough so that I had time to teach an alternative behaviour while he was trying to decide whether to react or not :/

Edited December 27, 2012 by TheLBD

[corvus]

Oh, I just realised Cosmolo already said basically everything I said in my last post. Sorry, Cosmolo, I did read it and thought it was great. I meant to just add a little to the excellent points you made but sometime in the last 24 hours I apparently forgot the 'little' bit.

You know, TheLBD, I think I know some people who use CU games to avoid doing counter-conditioning. I was one of them at one point. I hate CC. It's boring and tedious. But nothing I know of is more universally effective. The last few months I've been blitzing Erik's milder triggers with CC with great success. I still hate it, though. :p Like training stays. I hate those, too. Both can be integrated nicely with CU at least, which helps slightly impetuous people like me knuckle down and do them. I joke that Kivi's stays are most reliable when I'm moving around because I can't sit still for 3 minutes doing nothing. It's not really a joke, though...

[Weasels]

I hadn't considered handler aversion :laugh: Yes it is boring but I would do it a million more times for the results we've had - Weez's training video is actually being used as an example of desensitisation/CC in a dog training course now :/ But more importantly he can be interrupted before locking in on almost anything now (except cats and Chess) which is giving us the most low-stress walks we've ever had :)

I'm the same with stays The only ones I practice lately involve walking circles around them....

Edited December 27, 2012 by TheLBD

[huski]

I actually like training stays! I love giving my dogs a bit of a challenge and testing them. I don't really see training stays as much different to any other obedience exercise we train. And I love the end result of having a dog with a nice solid stay.

[Mogwai]

Another troubleshoot question for the LAT:

We've been practising at home with a toy and he seems to have the concept down. But if I try on a dog at the park he just isn't interested in what I've got. I can use roast chicken and get over a 100m away and he will still just stand there and stare. It's like if he can even see another dog that is enough to put him over the threshold. Am I moving too fast and increasing the criteria too much? Should I forget about other dogs for the time being?

And even when he is in a calm state he seems like he could take or leave the food anyway. I just really wish I knew how to motivate my dog.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Mogwai

[JulesP]

He may not be a foody dog but it may be that you are using the wrong food. I thought I was being so clever one day using raw steak and the dogs were not fussed at all! But cat kibble, well that is the best apparently.

If it makes you feel better all the kelpies I come across are acting like yours.

[Mogwai]

He may not be a foody dog but it may be that you are using the wrong food. I thought I was being so clever one day using raw steak and the dogs were not fussed at all! But cat kibble, well that is the best apparently.

If it makes you feel better all the kelpies I come across are acting like yours.

He can be a bit picky about foods. Honestly I think I've tried everything with him, cheese, steak, kibble, cabonossi, liver treats etc., etc. The only time I get really good food motivation from him is if I do some training at his feeding time. If he were interested in a tug toy, or something similar then I could use that, but he really has no interest in tug toys. He likes herding his soccer ball but I can't really stick that in my pocket. I would love to be able to do something with him but I'm apparently just not interesting enough!

[The Spotted Devil]

You can build motivation for food and tug and social rewards. Anyone who sees my food obsessed, tug obsessed and praise obsessed Dalmatian compete in obedience and agility has trouble believing what a turd he was for the first few years :laugh: ZERO interest in anything I offered him - it takes time and patience. I used to work on the behaviour at home with impressive rewards and then downgrade the rewards until he was training at home with super enthusiasm with average rewards (eg dry food instead of cheese, rope tug instead of fur tug) - it gives you somewhere to move. You have to teach them to take the reward you choose. My working ESS had to learn to accept food in the face of game - a similar stickiness to a kelpie I expect and it really helps them "switch" their brain on.

Edited December 27, 2012 by The Spotted Devil

[Kavik]

Both of my Kelpies are very foody. However I have always been more comfortable using food for some reason so I used food rewards from when they were puppies, not sure how much of a difference it makes. Tug has been my big mission, and while I may never get it to the point where I can use it at competitions, we have come a very long way and it has improved our relationship and engagement a lot. I am so in awe of you TSD for being able to build it up so much in your Dally I am now confident in how I can build it in my next puppy.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Kavik

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Mogwai Just wondering if I could get some advice about my 2 year old kelpie who has a habit of stalking/herding other dogs and to a lesser extent people when out on a walk? He isn't aggressive but he gives a lot of hard eye, puts his head down, ears back and will pull/strain on his lead a bit, which understandably some people esp. with smaller dogs find intimidating and/or rude by canine etiquette standards. Is it possible to curb his instinct?

You might wish to consider the Koehler Method of Dog Training. It's available at Amazon or maybe your local library may carry a copy. Basically my advice is teach your dog to 'heel', your dog cannot be 'heeling' and at the same time be 'herding'.

It sounds very much to me that your dog does not know or understand what 'heeling' means, teach him that and your problems will be a thing of the past.

[Weasels]

Great post TSD :) Mogwai I would recommend picking up a copy of Control Unleashed (there's a DVD as well as a book if you are a visual learner), which has lots of strategies in addition to LAT for building focus and relationship, setting up environmental cues for behaviour etc. mostly through simple games.

If it makes you feel better all the kelpies I come across are acting like yours.

Yes :laugh: whenever we get together with other kelpies there is one dog focussed on a ball and the rest all line up behind with laser-eyes on her hips ready to chase at the slightest movement!

[Mogwai]

The Spotted Devil is it your dally that I have seen make appearances on some of the K9Pro videos? If so you make me weep with envy! :laugh:

It sounds very much to me that your dog does not know or understand what 'heeling' means, teach him that and your problems will be a thing of the past.

I don't think it is matter of him knowing how to heel. He can heel quite well with good focus on me but we come unstuck around distractions. It is really his whole outlook on environmental stimuli that we struggle with.

Great post TSD :) Mogwai I would recommend picking up a copy of Control Unleashed (there's a DVD as well as a book if you are a visual learner), which has lots of strategies in addition to LAT for building focus and relationship, setting up environmental cues for behaviour etc. mostly through simple games.

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If it makes you feel better all the kelpies I come across are acting like yours.

Yes :laugh: whenever we get together with other kelpies there is one dog focussed on a ball and the rest all line up behind with laser-eyes on her hips ready to chase at the slightest movement!

My copy of Control Unleashed just arrived in the mail! Might have to have a look for the dvd too.

Yep! He's a typical blasted Kelpie, so full of potential and yet so very, very frustrating! :laugh:

[Kavik]

Yep! He's a typical blasted Kelpie, so full of potential and yet so very, very frustrating! :laugh:

Don't worry, I feel your pain on that one! :laugh: It has been quite a journey to get Kaos working well for me - we are now in Masters Jumping and Masters Agility but he has made me work for it :laugh:

[The Spotted Devil]

No that's not my Dally but she did very well at our recent Dalmatian Nationals! Just goes to show what you can do. Ziggy blew his retrieve over the jump in CDX (took the dumbbell to the judge, bless him :laugh: ) but won ADM, JDM, ADO, JDO, Best in jumping trial and Best in agility trial.

Ziggy's favourite thing is/was marking his territory. He still gets to do that as a reward for a job well done :D

Zig and Em videos (not all brilliant :laugh:): http://m.youtube.com/user/TheSpottedDevil?feature=guide

Edited December 28, 2012 by The Spotted Devil