3rd Litter Inside 18 Months Qld

[Blakbelgian]

We had a bitch that had silent seasons. Although a couple of times she would be either late or early with it.

First time was her half bro so we allowed the litter to happen and sold them as pets and told the owners that they were inbred.

Second time we aborted with no side effects.

I also know of a dog & bitch that were in seperate wire runs, came into season and they tied with the wire between them somehow.

If a boy is desperate enough he will try anything to get to a bitch.

BB

[benshiva]

You do what you think is best for your dog - its pretty clear that some breeders have taken their education from animal rights rather than from breeders with experience and from canine species related science. In NSW we have a law which says no more than 2 in 2 years but even that says intentionally because everyone who has been around dogs long enough knows dogs like to have sex when they are on heat and sometimes they do what they want. Ive seen a dog mating another dog through a chain link fence .If you decide to go ahead with the litter and they wont register them give me a yell and Ill tell you the alternative.

Seriously some of you guys need to get educated ,take notice of canine repo specialists rather than animal rights and stop being so bloody judgmental.

edited to ad there is no code or law which says if you have an accidental mating that you have to kill the puppies.

I am one of the people that spoke of my experience with aborting a litter.

I worked for a repo vet for years. There was no WAY I was allowing a mother/son mating to go full term and I'm very happy with the decision I made, it didn't affect her at all! She whelped two litters after the abortion and lived to a very old age.

I wasn't being judgemental, just posting of my experience.

[Christina]

If the mating has only just happened no injections are needed. My Tara had a silent heat & her son tied with her right in front of me. I thought they were playing & bent down to move him for playing like that Too late. The vet told me to bring her in the next morning & he gave her one tablet & another to be taken a week later. She was fine.

If it has been longer since the mating I would not be aborting the litter. Your girl will be fine as you are a home where she is well fed & cared for. :) The litter rule is man made & not infallible & right for every dog.

What you do about registering the litter is up to you however I also think that you will have to revise how you keep your boy. My girls season anywhere from 4 to 6 months.

She may not be pregnant anyway. If she is she will need a good long rest after this litter though. Good luck.

[asal]

You do what you think is best for your dog - its pretty clear that some breeders have taken their education from animal rights rather than from breeders with experience and from canine species related science. In NSW we have a law which says no more than 2 in 2 years but even that says intentionally because everyone who has been around dogs long enough knows dogs like to have sex when they are on heat and sometimes they do what they want. Ive seen a dog mating another dog through a chain link fence .If you decide to go ahead with the litter and they wont register them give me a yell and Ill tell you the alternative.

Seriously some of you guys need to get educated ,take notice of canine repo specialists rather than animal rights and stop being so bloody judgmental.

edited to ad there is no code or law which says if you have an accidental mating that you have to kill the puppies.

I am one of the people that spoke of my experience with aborting a litter.

I worked for a repo vet for years. There was no WAY I was allowing a mother/son mating to go full term and I'm very happy with the decision I made, it didn't affect her at all! She whelped two litters after the abortion and lived to a very old age.

I wasn't being judgemental, just posting of my experience.

me too.

my father to daughter foal not only wasnt born with two heads, 8 legs andgoodnessknows what else so many seem to think is the result of such breedings.

he became a living legend in his field of sport.

such matings have been used for centuaries by highly sucessful breeders.

its only since the advent of libbers applying the bible to animals all the breast beating started.

inbreeding does not cause mutations.

any two with a deletrious gene will produce an affected youngster, regardless never have acommon ancestor.

yet all i hear is if its deletrious,,,inbreeding caused it...

lots of progess back to the dark ages of superstition instead of knowledge again

I have youngsters here who are father daughter, mother son, bother sister 1/2 and 3/4 brother and sister and they are getting better with each generation, size wise, conformation wise and in a breed where two scids genes will kill not one ever born...weird eh?

mmmmmm n not a club foot among em,,,toddole off to a few shows and see how many club feet there are at the end of a lovely outcrossed pedigree.... soundness is the criteria first and foremost, but who would think it?

Edited December 24, 2012 by asal

[winpara]

I have used Alizin to abort an unplanned litter. Bitch was almost 6 weeks along by the time it was realised she was pregnant (no mating had been witnessed) and right at the top end of time when it can be done. Two injections a day or so apart. She passed a couple of pups about 48hrs later, not a real labour as such tho. She was fine, and has cycled normally (came back into season 2 months later and then back to her normal 6 monthly) and has conceived/whelped since then.

Best of luck with your decision. :)

why on earth at that late stage? let her homones alone and just put then down on arrival? (if your so desperate to be ethical)

Ive lost babies into 7 months term and you have no idea what a mess that makes of your body, try it some time before you do it to your dog who cant talk.

Not sure what a 7 month human pregnancy has to do with a 5 week canine one... ?

Having had a bitch whelp and lose all of her puppies at birth I can tell you they are a lot more affected by that loss than what this bitch went through at 5 weeks gestation, not to mention the health risks involved with carrying a pregnancy to term and subsequent whelping. I agree it is not ideal to do late HOWEVER as I said no mating was witnessed and bitch had been separated in what should have been plenty of time but unfortunately, as we found later when planning her first breeding - when you ovulate on day 4 of a season there is not a lot of margin to be had.

I did what was right for my bitch and her unborn whelps considering her circumstances at the time. Looking back I would still take the same course of action.

I was sharing my first hand experience with Alizin for the OP after reading several replies that stated they had "heard" abortion drugs had had disastrous results for the reproductive health of the bitch. Which in my case was simply not true. I spoke to many people in the few days I had to make the decision and all had positive things to say about their experience with that particular drug.

[mini girl]

I am starting to come to terms with what has now happened and discovered the baby gate that had served me so well in the past now can be sprung sometimes - I did have an accidental mating many years ago - yes - when new to breeding and took many steps never to let it happen again and had been successful - these pups if they do eventuate would not be from a 3 in a row breeding my girl came into season normally after her last litter and was happy to let her miss 2 more seasons and let her have one final litter befor having her spayed to be just my pet. I am not a big time breeder our 4 dogs live with us in the house -so back yard kennels and runs are no part of my set up - I even had invented a very effective belly band which served me well but the morning it happened I had taken my boys belly band off to give him a break and they were on either side of the gate somehow my girl must have jumped on it just the right way and the rest is history now. If she had come in at her normal 6 months the time would have been fine for registration of a litter. She was 6 weeks early.

I have heaps of hind sight now as is always the case butwhat is done is done. My plan is to just talk to cccq when they are back after new year and run it past them I feel confident my girl is up to having pups she is fit bouncy and a wonderful mother in the meantime I am still keeping them apart no way they will get together again will have her scanned at 4 to 5 weeks in all probability there will be pups but I feel I will just see it through fix the gate and keep the chastity belt in place for the moment.

After this I am seriously thinking of quitting breeding for a couple of years at least and see how I feel down the track.

Thank you all that have given me support I do do my best to raise healthly good pups and have enjoyed it over the years but my other two girl are now spayed and this girl is my last one without moving to acerage and love my two older girls too much to part with them.

Finally merry Christmas all and will let you know what transpires in 2013. Maybe out there there was someone wishing for an apricot mini and maybe their wish will come true.

[SLF]

Minigirl, hindsight is a wonderfull thing.

Merry Christmas to you I hope this situation works out as best it can. I hope you enjoy today, without the worry of what may come of this :)

[benshiva]

You do what you think is best for your dog - its pretty clear that some breeders have taken their education from animal rights rather than from breeders with experience and from canine species related science. In NSW we have a law which says no more than 2 in 2 years but even that says intentionally because everyone who has been around dogs long enough knows dogs like to have sex when they are on heat and sometimes they do what they want. Ive seen a dog mating another dog through a chain link fence .If you decide to go ahead with the litter and they wont register them give me a yell and Ill tell you the alternative.

Seriously some of you guys need to get educated ,take notice of canine repo specialists rather than animal rights and stop being so bloody judgmental.

edited to ad there is no code or law which says if you have an accidental mating that you have to kill the puppies.

I am one of the people that spoke of my experience with aborting a litter.

I worked for a repo vet for years. There was no WAY I was allowing a mother/son mating to go full term and I'm very happy with the decision I made, it didn't affect her at all! She whelped two litters after the abortion and lived to a very old age.

I wasn't being judgemental, just posting of my experience.

me too.

my father to daughter foal not only wasnt born with two heads, 8 legs andgoodnessknows what else so many seem to think is the result of such breedings.

he became a living legend in his field of sport.

such matings have been used for centuaries by highly sucessful breeders.

its only since the advent of libbers applying the bible to animals all the breast beating started.

inbreeding does not cause mutations.

any two with a deletrious gene will produce an affected youngster, regardless never have acommon ancestor.

yet all i hear is if its deletrious,,,inbreeding caused it...

lots of progess back to the dark ages of superstition instead of knowledge again

I have youngsters here who are father daughter, mother son, bother sister 1/2 and 3/4 brother and sister and they are getting better with each generation, size wise, conformation wise and in a breed where two scids genes will kill not one ever born...weird eh?

mmmmmm n not a club foot among em,,,toddole off to a few shows and see how many club feet there are at the end of a lovely outcrossed pedigree.... soundness is the criteria first and foremost, but who would think it?

Well funnily enough for me I KNOW my dogs and I KNOW that the mating is something I would NEVER have done. You see I AM a responsible breeder that does health testing and in terms of my highly reliable DNA TESTS it was NEVER going to be allowed to happen. You do KNOW what DNA tests are do you???? so no matter how much you bleat on with your nonsense I will NEVER regret my decision.

Oh and by the way, I'm at shows MOST weekends so no need for your smart arse comment about that either

AND Merry Christmas.

[espinay2]

Didn't see the comments as smart arse. just another point of view (talking about horses). No need to get bent out of shape if you are comfortable with your decision.

Edited December 24, 2012 by espinay2

[benshiva]

Didn't see the comments as smart arse. just another point of view (talking about horses). No need to get bent out of shape if you are comfortable with your decision.

Well bully for you. I DID see it as a smart ass response and responded in kind.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

[Andisa]

For some reason I always thought breeders were required to have secure areas to provide necessary management to keep entire dogs - especially for when bitches come in season. If not, maybe I just assumed it was so .

My dogs are also house dogs and run together, the boy lets me know well in advance when a girl is due in season. Being house dogs it also means I see the first sign of a drop of blood on the floor and know when they start bleeding but the obvious swelling of the vagina and the males head shoved up her twat is usually a dead give away before the blood starts.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Andisa

[espinay2]

They should, but accidents do sometimes happen despite all we do. When accidents do happen it is a good reminder to us (and others) to make sure we look at our procedures and do what we can to prevent it again in future. In this case, shutting the gate after the horse has bolted IS a good idea, just in case the horse decides to bolt again. Though naturally keeping the 'horse' in in the first place is the ideal. If it happens though, best to be open and deal with it and admit the horse is yours as the OP is doing (and I commend you for that).

I will admit after this week dealing with a 'breeder' (not in this country) whose (large breed) bitch had 9 litters (and in whelp a tenth time when she died) because she 'liked to escape' and 'liked being pregnant' and he 'loved his dogs', I find this thread rather refreshing!

[mini girl]

They should, but accidents do sometimes happen despite all we do. When accidents do happen it is a good reminder to us (and others) to make sure we look at our procedures and do what we can to prevent it again in future. In this case, shutting the gate after the horse has bolted IS a good idea, just in case the horse decides to bolt again. Though naturally keeping the 'horse' in in the first place is the ideal. If it happens though, best to be open and deal with it and admit the horse is yours as the OP is doing (and I commend you for that).

I will admit after this week dealing with a 'breeder' (not in this country) whose (large breed) bitch had 9 litters (and in whelp a tenth time when she died) because she 'liked to escape' and 'liked being pregnant' and he 'loved his dogs', I find this thread rather refreshing!

Thanks for that totally correct in every way I admit my own mistake entirely what can I say hope it's not only a lesson for me but others too may learn to never take thins for granted when its that time I remember years ago reading you should never begin a sentence with the words "if only" but if only I had doulble checked that gate and if only I had been less concerned with my boys comfort and left his chastity belt on but I didn't at that moment and so gotta suffer the consequences what ever they may be It has thought me a big lesson so please don't judge me a bad breeder just a lady who slipped up. Love my dogs totally.

[asal]

They should, but accidents do sometimes happen despite all we do. When accidents do happen it is a good reminder to us (and others) to make sure we look at our procedures and do what we can to prevent it again in future. In this case, shutting the gate after the horse has bolted IS a good idea, just in case the horse decides to bolt again. Though naturally keeping the 'horse' in in the first place is the ideal. If it happens though, best to be open and deal with it and admit the horse is yours as the OP is doing (and I commend you for that).

I will admit after this week dealing with a 'breeder' (not in this country) whose (large breed) bitch had 9 litters (and in whelp a tenth time when she died) because she 'liked to escape' and 'liked being pregnant' and he 'loved his dogs', I find this thread rather refreshing!

Thanks for that totally correct in every way I admit my own mistake entirely what can I say hope it's not only a lesson for me but others too may learn to never take thins for granted when its that time I remember years ago reading you should never begin a sentence with the words "if only" but if only I had doulble checked that gate and if only I had been less concerned with my boys comfort and left his chastity belt on but I didn't at that moment and so gotta suffer the consequences what ever they may be It has thought me a big lesson so please don't judge me a bad breeder just a lady who slipped up. Love my dogs totally.

You just reminded me of a mystery we had many decades ago.

Jody our cattle bitch popped out 9 pups despite the "fact" to our knowledge she had never been mated.

she had been penned her entire season.. no chances taken.

it was very evident the entire litter was purebred?

dna revealed it was by our male.

the only conclusion our vet could come to was she had to have been served through the fence????????????????

the damage that could have done to the stupid male doesnt bear thinking about.

lesson! have two fences between your male and your bitch.

[OSoSwift]

I figure with fencing if the end of their nose can fit through the holes in the fence then other bits can. Mine have 8x8mm holes in the mesh between their dog runs and that has served me well over a couple of bitches and dogs.

You know what sometime shit happens. Different people do different things in the same situation, each to their own.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Ahhh the Dog World, the only place where everyone knows everyone elses business and WHAT everyone else should do!!

Just love it!!

Its a shame as there was some very good information in the thread, before it got all bent out of shape and nasty, what one has come to expect in the Dog World, sadly.

[asal]

Ahhh the Dog World, the only place where everyone knows everyone elses business and WHAT everyone else should do!!

Just love it!!

Its a shame as there was some very good information in the thread, before it got all bent out of shape and nasty, what one has come to expect in the Dog World, sadly.

wonder if it was like that before KC's got going?

before that every one had what they wanted, the only pedigree the one the breeder wrote out for you who where mum dad and the ancestors, just like a german coolie IS STILL,

[yarracully]

Would be interested to hear just how an abortion effects the mother dog. To be honest just the thought of it fills me with horror also interested to know if an aborted dog was able to go on and have a litter in the future without problems. Will ring my repro vet and see what he says but at this time of year it may be hard to get an answer. He has said to me in the past that dogs should be bred young and also read a lot on the waiting periods before another litter as not always in the best interest of the mother dog. Will try and ring dogs Qld tomorrow and see what they say but they may not be there either at this time of year. Hope someone out there may have first hand knowledge of how they would react. To be honest I feel my girl will have no bad effects from having a litter she is fit and healthy and a very good temperament which makes for a good mother. I always give my mothers excellent care and have very good vets to call on. Will not let her near the boy again may not be much help but will hope for a smaller litter from just one tie if I go ahead.

From experience we have had one pregnancy terminated some years back and the bitch still had litters later on. However if its a termination using Alizin it doesn't work on all bitches.

[yarracully]

I am starting to come to terms with what has now happened and discovered the baby gate that had served me so well in the past now can be sprung sometimes - I did have an accidental mating many years ago - yes - when new to breeding and took many steps never to let it happen again and had been successful - these pups if they do eventuate would not be from a 3 in a row breeding my girl came into season normally after her last litter and was happy to let her miss 2 more seasons and let her have one final litter befor having her spayed to be just my pet. I am not a big time breeder our 4 dogs live with us in the house -so back yard kennels and runs are no part of my set up - I even had invented a very effective belly band which served me well but the morning it happened I had taken my boys belly band off to give him a break and they were on either side of the gate somehow my girl must have jumped on it just the right way and the rest is history now. If she had come in at her normal 6 months the time would have been fine for registration of a litter. She was 6 weeks early.

I have heaps of hind sight now as is always the case butwhat is done is done. My plan is to just talk to cccq when they are back after new year and run it past them I feel confident my girl is up to having pups she is fit bouncy and a wonderful mother in the meantime I am still keeping them apart no way they will get together again will have her scanned at 4 to 5 weeks in all probability there will be pups but I feel I will just see it through fix the gate and keep the chastity belt in place for the moment.

After this I am seriously thinking of quitting breeding for a couple of years at least and see how I feel down the track.

Thank you all that have given me support I do do my best to raise healthly good pups and have enjoyed it over the years but my other two girl are now spayed and this girl is my last one without moving to acerage and love my two older girls too much to part with them.

Finally merry Christmas all and will let you know what transpires in 2013. Maybe out there there was someone wishing for an apricot mini and maybe their wish will come true.

Dont be surprised if they mention not registering the litter. We had a bitch here that was accidentally mated at 11 months and 2 weeks of age(her first season). When we applied to have the litter registered we were advised that the litter was not to be registered due to age of dam. However we had documentation from our vet that showed we did try and terminate within a week of the mating however the bitch did not react to the alizin and whelped the litter.

I had to travel to the city to front the disciplinary committee which involved travelling down on the Tuesday (1 day off work), front the committee at 8pm for about half an hour and then drive 6 hours back to get to work on Wednesday. They accepted that we had done all we could to prevent the litter and did eventually allow the litter to be registered. But it was a nervous wait for a decision.

If this is not a third in a row then I can't see a problem. Providing she has had at least one season since her last litter there is no issue.

[Dobecrazy]

Accidents do happen..sigh.. isnt this how backyard breeders are born? Would you all be giving the same advice if someone posted this question somewhere else about their crossbreed?

Being a registered breeder is about doing all the right things..yeah mistakes happen but if this is a mistake you have made before I would seriously be reassessing the way I did things.

Under 18 months and 3 litters hmmm.. wonder if either of these dogs are champions? What exact health testing they have and whether or not she was bred too young for her first litter as well?

All sounds a bit pathetic to me and the way you try to justify your breeding program by saying the dogs all live in the house with you etc so what? Is that what we are talking about..no. I would honestly have aborted the pups early if I were you..if this was not a mating that NEEDED to happen for your program or the betterment of the breed then theres no reason to overpopulate..

And no..I have never bred a litter nor am I an animal rights activist..just speaking my mind. Good luck to you.