3rd Litter Inside 18 Months Qld

[Pockets]

I thought if you get it in writing from your vet stating the bitch is fit and healthy that they allow registering of the puppies?

However I think this needs to be approved by the controlling body prior to the mating taking place

As Benshiva said, mistakes happen and determined dogs will find a way ....

[Wazzat Xolo]

If it were me I would be contacting the Qld KC and explaining what had happened, afterall she may not be in pup. Even if I had to pet out every pup if it was born, I would not be using the abort injection, I have heard some horror stories of bitches who could not get back in pup. good luck, but I say be upfront and seek the KC advice.

Exactly.

OP, be very wary of veterinary 'minimal risk' quiffs.

It's all stats and figures until its your dog and your dilemma ...

and by then veterinary repro theory has moved on, and your dilemma is a shrug shoulders "oh we have advanced a lot since then ... we now recommend ..."

EXACTLY.

they dont even take responsibility when a vaccination batch is faulty, not that they are at fault, but I know from devestating experience when 7 out of nine died overnight, 8th died that afternoon, the bills for saving the 9th he asked could he keep her as he had become so attached during the weeks she (literally) lived in his pocket on a drip. No doubting his dedication to saving her.

Not a word was said about compensation let alone return of the vaccination fee I paid to keep them safe. not kill them outright. only learned months later that batch killed 600 before manufacturer recalled that batch. my friend worked there and spotted the recall, gave me the batch mumber and it tallied with the stickers on my cards. I have since learnt the vaccination companies rarely tell the vets why theres a recall so they dont have to compensate the owners..nice eh?

as for the vets who will do every test and check knowing the patient has less than 10percent chance of recovery , yet only tells the owner,we will do our best to save him/her, not a hint there is 90 percent that death is going to happen.

then pat the mug shelling out thousands for the great efforts made to 'save' their pet. So sorry, we did our best, some times these things happen. Nice fat invoice though and the owner never knew the real odds.

only recently were quoted "$3,000 for the necessary needed intensive care, or wont survive",thats not counting all the scans and examination costs alrready done, a family friend with medical experience looked at the scans and asked, whats the odds of recovery, after a bit of thought the reply? Ten percent.

The pet already had lived 1/3 longer than the breed average.

vets these days are not trained to tell you the practical.

They are trained to do all they can regardless of the cost or the low possibility of a successful outcome. Some only prolong life for another few weeks.

As one more honest vet said to me, over my unconsious cat with impacted bowel. "I can ream her out for you for $700 but that isnt removing whater is the root cause. Chances are you will be back in two weeks for the same op.

Her body is shutting down and I feel her day has arrived." She was 18. She had arrived as an adult all those years ago. We later learnt her real age was 20. so the old girl had a good innings.

I was so grateful to that vet for telling me the truth. Most today do not, they are taught to prolong whatever the costs. Pet owners hearts rule their head, but they should still be given ALL the facts before making the decision

THANK YOU ASAL i thought it was just me that saw the ongoing ridiculous costs some people are charged, its very sad as you said hearts rule heads, just recently here in WA a dog owner paid $37.000 to fix their dog up, it was a youndg couple and all their house savings, their sisters house savings and maxed out credit cards. I know they love the pooch, but I must admit I really felt for them.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Wazzat Xolo

[winpara]

I have used Alizin to abort an unplanned litter. Bitch was almost 6 weeks along by the time it was realised she was pregnant (no mating had been witnessed) and right at the top end of time when it can be done. Two injections a day or so apart. She passed a couple of pups about 48hrs later, not a real labour as such tho. She was fine, and has cycled normally (came back into season 2 months later and then back to her normal 6 monthly) and has conceived/whelped since then.

Best of luck with your decision. :)

[cowanbree]

I don't really understand how things like this happen once let alone twice. I have yet to ever have a back to back litter although I would consider it the case of small litters but I would never for a moment contemplate 3 litters in a row. In fact none of my bitch's have even had 3 litters let alone to the same stud dog each time.

I would be aborting if not seriously considering spaying - she would have done her bit for the breed in this house

[Fordogs]

3 litters in 18 months, have it terminated, do the right thing by your dog (: .

You do have to watch your females a little better !

[asal]

I have used Alizin to abort an unplanned litter. Bitch was almost 6 weeks along by the time it was realised she was pregnant (no mating had been witnessed) and right at the top end of time when it can be done. Two injections a day or so apart. She passed a couple of pups about 48hrs later, not a real labour as such tho. She was fine, and has cycled normally (came back into season 2 months later and then back to her normal 6 monthly) and has conceived/whelped since then.

Best of luck with your decision. :)

why on earth at that late stage? let her homones alone and just put then down on arrival? (if your so desperate to be ethical)

Ive lost babies into 7 months term and you have no idea what a mess that makes of your body, try it some time before you do it to your dog who cant talk.

Edited December 23, 2012 by asal

[BJean]

I don't really understand how things like this happen once let alone twice. I have yet to ever have a back to back litter although I would consider it the case of small litters but I would never for a moment contemplate 3 litters in a row. In fact none of my bitch's have even had 3 litters let alone to the same stud dog each time.

I would be aborting if not seriously considering spaying - she would have done her bit for the breed in this house

relevance?

I mean I could write all sorts of 'this house' goings on that would be totally irrelevant to 'your house' - and there would be no ethical correlation between them.

I would be ceasing breeding if I did not have a bitch that was worthy of having more than three litters.

in fact atm I have one bitch who is raising 4 puppies in -30C, whelping room temp 0C max.

Big deal

Edited December 23, 2012 by lilli

[OSoSwift]

If they are small litters and the bitch is not totally physically drained after her litters then physically I don't see much of an issue on that front.

The alizen injections have not caused to many issues with later fertility that I have seen- not a large number of bitches though. Having said that I would not use it unless totally necessary, or any hormonal therapy for that matter.

I would contact your canine control and go from there.

[BJean]

Thanks lilli you have helped cheer me up as have some others my girl is sitting at my feet now so contented and if she does have pups and they all have to be just pets so be it there will be some happy people out there from it all. Sometimes things happen for a reason so will just accept it and get on with it. Only yesterday had an enquiry from a man very much wanting a mini but told him none to late next year - maybe not.

Maşallah

You do not need the approval of others to know you are doing right thing by your breed and dogs.

All the best.

:)

[persephone]

Maşallah

I think I agree in this case .

[mini girl]

I don't really understand how things like this happen once let alone twice. I have yet to ever have a back to back litter although I would consider it the case of small litters but I would never for a moment contemplate 3 litters in a row. In fact none of my bitch's have even had 3 litters let alone to the same stud dog each time.

I would be aborting if not seriously considering spaying - she would have done her bit for the breed in this house

Wish I was this perfect!!!!!

[mini girl]

I don't really understand how things like this happen once let alone twice. I have yet to ever have a back to back litter although I would consider it the case of small litters but I would never for a moment contemplate 3 litters in a row. In fact none of my bitch's have even had 3 litters let alone to the same stud dog each time.

I would be aborting if not seriously considering spaying - she would have done her bit for the breed in this

Edited December 23, 2012 by mini girl

[asal]

I don't really understand how things like this happen once let alone twice. I have yet to ever have a back to back litter although I would consider it the case of small litters but I would never for a moment contemplate 3 litters in a row. In fact none of my bitch's have even had 3 litters let alone to the same stud dog each time.

I would be aborting if not seriously considering spaying - she would have done her bit for the breed in this house

Wish I was this perfect!!!!!

yes ethical are perfect, although if they make a mistake count on it, you wont hear about it.

[Steve]

You do what you think is best for your dog - its pretty clear that some breeders have taken their education from animal rights rather than from breeders with experience and from canine species related science. In NSW we have a law which says no more than 2 in 2 years but even that says intentionally because everyone who has been around dogs long enough knows dogs like to have sex when they are on heat and sometimes they do what they want. Ive seen a dog mating another dog through a chain link fence .If you decide to go ahead with the litter and they wont register them give me a yell and Ill tell you the alternative.

Seriously some of you guys need to get educated ,take notice of canine repo specialists rather than animal rights and stop being so bloody judgmental.

edited to ad there is no code or law which says if you have an accidental mating that you have to kill the puppies.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Steve

[persephone]

I have used Alizin to abort an unplanned litter. Bitch was almost 6 weeks along by the time it was realised she was pregnant (no mating had been witnessed) and right at the top end of time when it can be done. Two injections a day or so apart. She passed a couple of pups about 48hrs later, not a real labour as such tho. She was fine, and has cycled normally (came back into season 2 months later and then back to her normal 6 monthly) and has conceived/whelped since then.

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[Tralee]

The regulations are there to prevent consecutive matings.

A third mating is allowed with prior permission.

Therefore, the precedent is set for accidental matings.

Although, let's be honest, it does not look good for your kennel management.

Nevertheless, the council may choose to make an example out of it but personally I don't see what they would gain.

They would not be able to make the regulation more stringent because of it.

Using the same dog to produce is exactly the point of breeding.

A kennel is built up with good breeding bitches.

Finally, who hasn't made 'stuff ups'

The regulations are there firstly as a guideline.

Good Luck

[Sandra777]

I would be aborting if not seriously considering spaying - she would have done her bit for the breed in this house

I would assume then that you have dogs who have more than one or two pups on average As someone has already said - 6 litters of 1 or 2 is a totally different thing to 6 litters of 10, or even 4 or 5.

OP - if your bitch is healthy and in good condition I wouldn't mess with her hormones. Even if you decide after this litter not to breed from her again and do have her spayed, IMO you're better off giving yourself options.

Going forward maybe a crate is a better option than gates that can be left open/climbed - afterall it's only for a few days that you really have to be ultra-careful.

[cowanbree]

I am not suggesting anyone needs to be perfect but I am suggesting she needs to look at her kennel management. This is the second time she has had 3 litters in a row accidentally. The first time it happened here there would have been a heck of a shake up and things would have changed.

And yes my lines have reasonable sized litters of 4-6 puppies. I would have 3 litters over the lifetime of a bitch if needed but haven't had the need to currently. They would never be in a row though

[Bisart Dobes]

If it were me I would be contacting the Qld KC and explaining what had happened, afterall she may not be in pup. Even if I had to pet out every pup if it was born, I would not be using the abort injection, I have heard some horror stories of bitches who could not get back in pup. good luck, but I say be upfront and seek the KC advice.

Exactly.

OP, be very wary of veterinary 'minimal risk' quiffs.

It's all stats and figures until its your dog and your dilemma ...

and by then veterinary repro theory has moved on, and your dilemma is a shrug shoulders "oh we have advanced a lot since then ... we now recommend ..."

EXACTLY.

they dont even take responsibility when a vaccination batch is faulty, not that they are at fault, but I know from devestating experience when 7 out of nine died overnight, 8th died that afternoon, the bills for saving the 9th he asked could he keep her as he had become so attached during the weeks she (literally) lived in his pocket on a drip. No doubting his dedication to saving her.

Not a word was said about compensation let alone return of the vaccination fee I paid to keep them safe. not kill them outright. only learned months later that batch killed 600 before manufacturer recalled that batch. my friend worked there and spotted the recall, gave me the batch mumber and it tallied with the stickers on my cards. I have since learnt the vaccination companies rarely tell the vets why theres a recall so they dont have to compensate the owners..nice eh?

as for the vets who will do every test and check knowing the patient has less than 10percent chance of recovery , yet only tells the owner,we will do our best to save him/her, not a hint there is 90 percent that death is going to happen.

then pat the mug shelling out thousands for the great efforts made to 'save' their pet. So sorry, we did our best, some times these things happen. Nice fat invoice though and the owner never knew the real odds.

only recently were quoted "$3,000 for the necessary needed intensive care, or wont survive",thats not counting all the scans and examination costs alrready done, a family friend with medical experience looked at the scans and asked, whats the odds of recovery, after a bit of thought the reply? Ten percent.

The pet already had lived 1/3 longer than the breed average.

vets these days are not trained to tell you the practical.

They are trained to do all they can regardless of the cost or the low possibility of a successful outcome. Some only prolong life for another few weeks.

As one more honest vet said to me, over my unconsious cat with impacted bowel. "I can ream her out for you for $700 but that isnt removing whater is the root cause. Chances are you will be back in two weeks for the same op.

Her body is shutting down and I feel her day has arrived." She was 18. She had arrived as an adult all those years ago. We later learnt her real age was 20. so the old girl had a good innings.

I was so grateful to that vet for telling me the truth. Most today do not, they are taught to prolong whatever the costs. Pet owners hearts rule their head, but they should still be given ALL the facts before making the decision

Totally off topic but . . .

You do know that vets take an oath to do everything they can to save an animals life (like doctors do for people) - I think you will find that all vets do give the correct information regarding an animals outcome its just that when we are in a stress situation we don't take it in. Every vet I have ever had dealings with is ethical in the way they approach their jobs - it is up to the owners to sign the consent form for treatment - it is up to the owners to ensure they understand what they are signing.

Not saying there aren't some dodgy vets out there - obviously yours - but I find your post quite offensive and I don't even work as a vet nurse any more.

And the cost is why we should have pet insurance !!! & this is why we now do the 6 weeks free insurance with our puppies - 9/10 from our last litter have signed up with the company so it works for the company as well.

[asal]

I am not suggesting anyone needs to be perfect but I am suggesting she needs to look at her kennel management. This is the second time she has had 3 litters in a row accidentally. The first time it happened here there would have been a heck of a shake up and things would have changed.

And yes my lines have reasonable sized litters of 4-6 puppies. I would have 3 litters over the lifetime of a bitch if needed but haven't had the need to currently. They would never be in a row though

you would be amazed at how many and varied the reasons things like this can and do happen. I know for years i nearly went nuts trying to keep my bitches from going into pup . yet would still discover they were in pup. in the end my males and bitches were locked in wire roofed yards so they couldnt climb out, yet still some would be in pup?

it was 20 years before i learned from my by now adult child that all those years ago she had been putting them together, then back in their respective pens because she thought i was being cruel keeping them apart when they so obviously wanted to be together.

how few remember christs words, "Let he that is without sin cast the first stone."

There certainly a lot of saints in the dog world, the woman in that bible section would have surely died that day if she had some here on this forum (met a few at dog shows too) anywhere near that day and availble to "cast" that first stone.

Edited December 23, 2012 by asal