mini girl Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I have just witnessed an accidental tie with my girl and boy - not planned at the moment - my girl came into season about 7 weeks early - another of my girls was in and guess it must have brought her in early and so if pups eventuate it will be about 6 weeks short of the 2 litters only in 18 months. Have heard horror stories about terminating and don't want to go down this path but don't want to not register the pups either - pretty sure there will be pups never missed before with this pair. Its all a bit of a drama to me - not the puppies but don't want to get into a lot of trouble with the CCCQ Dogs Qld - it happened once to me before a few years ago and they let me register the pups but gave me a bit of a chastising in a letter - will they be reasonalble a second time or not - will ring them and see what they say but wondered if anyone else has had this happen was so careful but with the silly season and all it only took a minute of inattention and a wilful girl who managed to get over the barrier and not forgetting a more than willing boy ofcourse. My girl is in excellend health and hasn't stopped smiling and wagging her tail since it happened. Wish I was as happy about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLF Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) I wonder if you need to talk to your vet, because the risk associated with terminating are pretty low, especially when you take into account the toll of the 3rd pregnancy will take on her body. If you chose not to register the pups isnt that just trying to 'hide' the mistake. Im not sure I would miss my bitch being in season ? especially if she had had previous seaasons. Did you not notice any changes in the last 10days. (sorry edited to say, I missed the bit about her getting through the barrier :) ) I have 3 that run with my boy, and I am very very carefull to avoid such things happening. Yes accidents can happen, but you still need to be responsible about how you deal with them. I hope you get the best result you can. Edited December 23, 2012 by SLF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted December 23, 2012 Author Share Posted December 23, 2012 Feeling really bad about this and have just done a google on termination but they do carry risks it seems I do try very hard to be responsible and would never wish to put my dogs in any bad situation Will definitely ring dogs Qld and ask what they feel is best to do. It's upset me really but will try and get as you say the best possible result under the circumstances. Did want to breed this girl one last time not just now. She is fit and healthy and I feel will cope with a litter again as only 5 weeks short of the time frame - our dogs live in the house with us and I have got through many seasons before without a problem just an unfortunate thing that happened this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parkeyre Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 The risks associated with Aborting Litters these days are very minimal/rare. You agreed to the Code of Ethics, I think you should adhere to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) The risks associated with Aborting Litters these days are very minimal/rare. You agreed to the Code of Ethics, I think you should adhere to them. if the bitch is in good health and good condition the code of ethics is as much a load of rubbish as "ethical breeder only produce a litter to keep" look how few are being born now, too little to even keep some breeds so low in registered numbers to stay geneticaly viable let alone someone wanting a pet has only the byb's with any for sale. Ask any good repo vet, its no problem for the dogs. breeders are being blindsided by the animal libber brigade, bitches should have their litters young then retired. not this one a year or 2 in 18 months which means if you did want a 6th permitted litter shes twice the age she would be if best practice was followed instead pandering to the luni fringe. just read up how concerned gynacologists are over the risks to ageing human mothers and the significantly increased risk of ageing eggs producing DNA damaged babies. Downs syndrome isnt restricted to humans............Same applies to dogs and every other breeding species. Most damaged DNA means unviable embroyo, but the likes of Downs does not only survive so does the damaged dna sequence which can then become part of the gene pool if they have babies...if its a downs puppie? who will get the blame? London to a brick the breeder will either be said to have been unethical 0r it wouldnt have happend. or probably slated to being caused by the ever useful bin to throw any of thes mistakes into "ITS INBRED" basket. two downs can produce homozygous downs....every progeny then is downes. This is just using one mutated gene as an example,,, read up on the subject of ageing eggs. Edited December 23, 2012 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 The risks of terminating are much lower than those associated with pregnancy and whelping. I would get the injections and let her body have a rest. The 18 month period is set out to reduce strain on brood bitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 The risks of terminating are much lower than those associated with pregnancy and whelping. I would get the injections and let her body have a rest. The 18 month period is set out to reduce strain on brood bitches. Yep thats what they tell me too. except how come its a one size fits all, no exceptions, even when the bitch has 3 or less pups? what about the one pup litter bitch? one size does not fit all. why should the one pup litter bitch be restricted to 6 pups yet the 16 pup litter bitch gets to produce 96 pups? whatever happened to common sense?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wazzat Xolo Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I have just witnessed an accidental tie with my girl and boy - not planned at the moment - my girl came into season about 7 weeks early - another of my girls was in and guess it must have brought her in early and so if pups eventuate it will be about 6 weeks short of the 2 litters only in 18 months. Have heard horror stories about terminating and don't want to go down this path but don't want to not register the pups either - pretty sure there will be pups never missed before with this pair. Its all a bit of a drama to me - not the puppies but don't want to get into a lot of trouble with the CCCQ Dogs Qld - it happened once to me before a few years ago and they let me register the pups but gave me a bit of a chastising in a letter - will they be reasonalble a second time or not - will ring them and see what they say but wondered if anyone else has had this happen was so careful but with the silly season and all it only took a minute of inattention and a wilful girl who managed to get over the barrier and not forgetting a more than willing boy ofcourse. My girl is in excellend health and hasn't stopped smiling and wagging her tail since it happened. Wish I was as happy about it. If it were me I would be contacting the Qld KC and explaining what had happened, afterall she may not be in pup. Even if I had to pet out every pup if it was born, I would not be using the abort injection, I have heard some horror storries of bitches who could not get back in pup. good luck, but I say be upfront and seek the KC advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted December 23, 2012 Author Share Posted December 23, 2012 Would be interested to hear just how an abortion effects the mother dog. To be honest just the thought of it fills me with horror also interested to know if an aborted dog was able to go on and have a litter in the future without problems. Will ring my repro vet and see what he says but at this time of year it may be hard to get an answer. He has said to me in the past that dogs should be bred young and also read a lot on the waiting periods before another litter as not always in the best interest of the mother dog. Will try and ring dogs Qld tomorrow and see what they say but they may not be there either at this time of year. Hope someone out there may have first hand knowledge of how they would react. To be honest I feel my girl will have no bad effects from having a litter she is fit and healthy and a very good temperament which makes for a good mother. I always give my mothers excellent care and have very good vets to call on. Will not let her near the boy again may not be much help but will hope for a smaller litter from just one tie if I go ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benshiva Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Well I can tell you my story connected with an unwanted pregnancy. I had a crafty girl that learnt to undo a screen door and got outside and her young son mated her. No brainer for us, we aborted the litter. She bounced back perfectly and produced two further litters for us without a single problem. If I were ever unlucky to have an unwanted mating again, I would chose aborting the litter again. Let's face it, these things DO happen from time to time. Good luck with your decision xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted December 23, 2012 Author Share Posted December 23, 2012 Well I can tell you my story connected with an unwanted pregnancy. I had a crafty girl that learnt to undo a screen door and got outside and her young son mated her. No brainer for us, we aborted the litter. She bounced back perfectly and produced two further litters for us without a single problem. If I were ever unlucky to have an unwanted mating again, I would chose aborting the litter again. Let's face it, these things DO happen from time to time. Good luck with your decision xx How far along are they when they do this is it fairly early. Is it with an injection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benshiva Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 She had an ultrasound at 21 days and we went from there. She absorbed the majority and passed two. It was stressful for me but she was absolutely fine. It was a LONG time ago now so I can't remember the name of the injection used. Have a chat to your vet and decide what is right for you. I'd also have a chat to your Canine Council if they haven't gone on holidays. Mistakes happen, don't beat yourself up about it xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLF Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 in regards to the termination, from memory it is a series of 3 injections given by the vet at 'precise' intervals from the time of mating. The bitch may then have a small bleed, or none at all. I have personally never seen any ill effects from this treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) I wonder if you need to talk to your vet, because the risk associated with terminating are pretty low, especially when you take into account the toll of the 3rd pregnancy will take on her body. If you chose not to register the pups isnt that just trying to 'hide' the mistake. Im not sure I would miss my bitch being in season ? especially if she had had previous seaasons. Did you not notice any changes in the last 10days. (sorry edited to say, I missed the bit about her getting through the barrier :) ) I have 3 that run with my boy, and I am very very carefull to avoid such things happening. Yes accidents can happen, but you still need to be responsible about how you deal with them. I hope you get the best result you can. If the bitch is healthy the third litter wont take any more toll on her than not letting her have the litter. Check with the CC and get it in writing. If it were my dog Id let her have the litter because it is the lessor of the two evils in my opinion assuming of course the CC will allow it. Edited December 23, 2012 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted December 23, 2012 Author Share Posted December 23, 2012 Thanks for the information. These two have had two litters before with some very nice results. And I would have seriously thought about letting her have a litter when she came in if it had been at the time it should have been In another 6 weeks which would have made the time fine. I will throw myself on the mercy of the cccq dogs Queensland and see what they say firstly and take it from there it's not as if they are dogs of different breeds or related just the time thing. I know rules are so very important but surely there are lots of accidents walking around even two legged ones. Can only try and see what the say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) I have just witnessed an accidental tie with my girl and boy - not planned at the moment - my girl came into season about 7 weeks early - another of my girls was in and guess it must have brought her in early and so if pups eventuate it will be about 6 weeks short of the 2 litters only in 18 months. Have heard horror stories about terminating and don't want to go down this path but don't want to not register the pups either - pretty sure there will be pups never missed before with this pair. Its all a bit of a drama to me - not the puppies but don't want to get into a lot of trouble with the CCCQ Dogs Qld - it happened once to me before a few years ago and they let me register the pups but gave me a bit of a chastising in a letter - will they be reasonalble a second time or not - will ring them and see what they say but wondered if anyone else has had this happen was so careful but with the silly season and all it only took a minute of inattention and a wilful girl who managed to get over the barrier and not forgetting a more than willing boy ofcourse. My girl is in excellend health and hasn't stopped smiling and wagging her tail since it happened. Wish I was as happy about it. If your bitch is a good producer then I would not stuff up her hormone cycle by terminating. Have the puppies. Hopefully you can register them. For sure you can find good homes for them. Good luck, it's not the end of the world and ignore all the tsk tskers Edited December 23, 2012 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) If it were me I would be contacting the Qld KC and explaining what had happened, afterall she may not be in pup. Even if I had to pet out every pup if it was born, I would not be using the abort injection, I have heard some horror stories of bitches who could not get back in pup. good luck, but I say be upfront and seek the KC advice. Exactly. OP, be very wary of veterinary 'minimal risk' quiffs. It's all stats and figures until its your dog and your dilemma ... and by then veterinary repro theory has moved on, and your dilemma is a shrug shoulders "oh we have advanced a lot since then ... we now recommend ..." Edited December 23, 2012 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted December 23, 2012 Author Share Posted December 23, 2012 I have just witnessed an accidental tie with my girl and boy - not planned at the moment - my girl came into season about 7 weeks early - another of my girls was in and guess it must have brought her in early and so if pups eventuate it will be about 6 weeks short of the 2 litters only in 18 months. Have heard horror stories about terminating and don't want to go down this path but don't want to not register the pups either - pretty sure there will be pups never missed before with this pair. Its all a bit of a drama to me - not the puppies but don't want to get into a lot of trouble with the CCCQ Dogs Qld - it happened once to me before a few years ago and they let me register the pups but gave me a bit of a chastising in a letter - will they be reasonalble a second time or not - will ring them and see what they say but wondered if anyone else has had this happen was so careful but with the silly season and all it only took a minute of inattention and a wilful girl who managed to get over the barrier and not forgetting a more than willing boy ofcourse. My girl is in excellend health and hasn't stopped smiling and wagging her tail since it happened. Wish I was as happy about it. If your bitch is a good producer then I would not stuff up her hormone cycle by terminating. Have the puppies. Hopefully you can register them. For sure you can find good homes for them. Good luck, it's not the end of the world and ignore all the tsk tskers Thanks lilli you have helped cheer me up as have some others my girl is sitting at my feet now so contented and if she does have pups and they all have to be just pets so be it there will be some happy people out there from it all. Sometimes things happen for a reason so will just accept it and get on with it. Only yesterday had an enquiry from a man very much wanting a mini but told him none to late next year - maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wazzat Xolo Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I have just witnessed an accidental tie with my girl and boy - not planned at the moment - my girl came into season about 7 weeks early - another of my girls was in and guess it must have brought her in early and so if pups eventuate it will be about 6 weeks short of the 2 litters only in 18 months. Have heard horror stories about terminating and don't want to go down this path but don't want to not register the pups either - pretty sure there will be pups never missed before with this pair. Its all a bit of a drama to me - not the puppies but don't want to get into a lot of trouble with the CCCQ Dogs Qld - it happened once to me before a few years ago and they let me register the pups but gave me a bit of a chastising in a letter - will they be reasonalble a second time or not - will ring them and see what they say but wondered if anyone else has had this happen was so careful but with the silly season and all it only took a minute of inattention and a wilful girl who managed to get over the barrier and not forgetting a more than willing boy ofcourse. My girl is in excellend health and hasn't stopped smiling and wagging her tail since it happened. Wish I was as happy about it. If your bitch is a good producer then I would not stuff up her hormone cycle by terminating. Have the puppies. Hopefully you can register them. For sure you can find good homes for them. Good luck, it's not the end of the world and ignore all the tsk tskers Thanks lilli you have helped cheer me up as have some others my girl is sitting at my feet now so contented and if she does have pups and they all have to be just pets so be it there will be some happy people out there from it all. Sometimes things happen for a reason so will just accept it and get on with it. Only yesterday had an enquiry from a man very much wanting a mini but told him none to late next year - maybe not. Be upfront and honest, thats all you can do and in real terms you know whats best for your girl and I am sure no KC would ever question the protection of ones own dog ( whatever the reason!) Good luck in what you decide, Ill watch for you in the litters! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) If it were me I would be contacting the Qld KC and explaining what had happened, afterall she may not be in pup. Even if I had to pet out every pup if it was born, I would not be using the abort injection, I have heard some horror stories of bitches who could not get back in pup. good luck, but I say be upfront and seek the KC advice. Exactly. OP, be very wary of veterinary 'minimal risk' quiffs. It's all stats and figures until its your dog and your dilemma ... and by then veterinary repro theory has moved on, and your dilemma is a shrug shoulders "oh we have advanced a lot since then ... we now recommend ..." EXACTLY. they dont even take responsibility when a vaccination batch is faulty, not that they are at fault, but I know from devestating experience when 7 out of nine died overnight, 8th died that afternoon, the bills for saving the 9th he asked could he keep her as he had become so attached during the weeks she (literally) lived in his pocket on a drip. No doubting his dedication to saving her. Not a word was said about compensation let alone return of the vaccination fee I paid to keep them safe. not kill them outright. only learned months later that batch killed 600 before manufacturer recalled that batch. my friend worked there and spotted the recall, gave me the batch mumber and it tallied with the stickers on my cards. I have since learnt the vaccination companies rarely tell the vets why theres a recall so they dont have to compensate the owners..nice eh? as for the vets who will do every test and check knowing the patient has less than 10percent chance of recovery , yet only tells the owner,we will do our best to save him/her, not a hint there is 90 percent that death is going to happen. then pat the mug shelling out thousands for the great efforts made to 'save' their pet. So sorry, we did our best, some times these things happen. Nice fat invoice though and the owner never knew the real odds. only recently were quoted "$3,000 for the necessary needed intensive care, or wont survive",thats not counting all the scans and examination costs alrready done, a family friend with medical experience looked at the scans and asked, whats the odds of recovery, after a bit of thought the reply? Ten percent. The pet already had lived 1/3 longer than the breed average. vets these days are not trained to tell you the practical. They are trained to do all they can regardless of the cost or the low possibility of a successful outcome. Some only prolong life for another few weeks. As one more honest vet said to me, over my unconsious cat with impacted bowel. "I can ream her out for you for $700 but that isnt removing whater is the root cause. Chances are you will be back in two weeks for the same op. Her body is shutting down and I feel her day has arrived." She was 18. She had arrived as an adult all those years ago. We later learnt her real age was 20. so the old girl had a good innings. I was so grateful to that vet for telling me the truth. Most today do not, they are taught to prolong whatever the costs. Pet owners hearts rule their head, but they should still be given ALL the facts before making the decision Edited December 23, 2012 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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