Another One Bites The Dust

[Sheridan]

Oh for heaven's sake - this is what's wrong with the dog scene - bloody arguments.

Yes.

[moosmum]

Many of us can agree with every thing the breed clubs are trying to do and stand for and would happily work tirelessly for a breed,and promote pedigrees above all else.They certainly consider them equal,and mostly better.

They just don't believe pedigrees are always THE only ethical,responsible choice.What will be the opposite reaction? Is the opposite reaction maybe whats causing some of those problems within?

They believe from looking out side their out their own backyards that pedigrees can't be truely appreciated,or their qualities recognised by discarding every thing else out of hand before that half of the science is understood or even recognised, and that new breeds,created by communities for current needs are necessary for evolution of the partnership.

They don't believe dog breeding is always better if its overseen by committes from the start,so that experimentation and individual choice is stiffled.

That throwing away the root stock will ensure success,especialy considering the problems within that you mentioned.Or that pedigree dogs with ever decreasing gene pools are always going to be the likely source for finding any new qualities or traits to value.

So it becomes a conscience decision and every one looses.

If it about promoting pedigree dogs,We're all for it,but not if that means destroying every thing else and that seems to be whats asked. Its all or nothing and that vision isn't enough.

If they didn't believe pedigrees were THE only ethical and responsible choice then why would they be interested in being a member of a breed club?

> Because they love the breed,and feel they have knowledge and skill to contribute to its future as a pedigree dog?

Why would you want anyone who didnt think that being anywhere near something thats set up to protect that?

> Because contact with their beliefs isn't going to take away purity of your breeds.They don't want to take anything away from pure breeds.They prefer to have them as to hold as the pinacle of good breeding.

Why would they care what anyone else looking outside of their back yards think and you're talking about general attitudes to new breed development, cross breeding, closed stud books, etc which is a totally different issue to what the purpose of a breed club is. Why would a rugby player want to work to make an AFL club successful?

> Maybe hes a sports lover who plays Rugby realy well and loves the game.But his son loves AFL so they agree theres room in the town for both games and they LIKE variety.

why would the AFL club want them if they were only there to get everyone to play their game?

>But hes not in AFL 'cos he wants to play Rugby.He wants to play AFL.He just doesn't want anyone telling him he can only play if he never again supports Rugby.He might tell you stick your game because its not realy about a good game any more,its about judgement and he won't support that culture and you've lost a great player who could have made your team a success.

Oooops. Didn't do that well,but my answers are within your post Steve,with > in front.

Edited December 27, 2012 by moosmum

[asal]

Oh for heaven's sake - this is what's wrong with the dog scene - bloody arguments.

Yes.

I am so embarrassed.

all that time you knew.

while I was wasting your time and patience saying what you didnt need, a fools version

Edited December 27, 2012 by asal

[yarracully]

asal, you are extrapolating what happened to you out to the entire pedigree dog world. Your troubles seem to have been caused, by your own account, by people in your own breed not by AR activists. Didn't people in your breed club make the complaint?

And Steve, not all breeds have a breed club. Are you suggesting breeds can only survive if there is one? I'll point out that not all breeds have the numbers to have a club. Even if they did, there's little to attract the average pet owner, particularly for those outside capital cities. I can't imagine someone in Broken Hill travelling to a breed day that's held in Sydney.

Here Here

[Alkhe]

asal, you are extrapolating what happened to you out to the entire pedigree dog world. Your troubles seem to have been caused, by your own account, by people in your own breed not by AR activists. Didn't people in your breed club make the complaint?

And Steve, not all breeds have a breed club. Are you suggesting breeds can only survive if there is one? I'll point out that not all breeds have the numbers to have a club. Even if they did, there's little to attract the average pet owner, particularly for those outside capital cities. I can't imagine someone in Broken Hill travelling to a breed day that's held in Sydney.

asal, I must say that I agree with Sheridan here. I don't even know exactly what happened to you but to be honest I find your posts extremely hard to read and verging on irrational. I read a lot more than I post on DOL, and I find myself skipping over your posts because I can't decipher what you are trying to say, and cringe when basically a seething hatred of a grand animal rights conspiracy is all that really comes through.

It's a shame, because you're obviously very passionate and have a lot of experience. I consider myself somebody who is very passionate about animal rights. There are kooks in the animal rights and welfare world as well as the show world, and every other group or people in the world. I think that on most accounts I understand the different sides of the dog world coin, and have sympathies that lie with breeders and rescuers, and can see the forest for the trees where it seems a lot of people can't. But I just.. don't understand you.

[asal]

asal, you are extrapolating what happened to you out to the entire pedigree dog world. Your troubles seem to have been caused, by your own account, by people in your own breed not by AR activists. Didn't people in your breed club make the complaint?

And Steve, not all breeds have a breed club. Are you suggesting breeds can only survive if there is one? I'll point out that not all breeds have the numbers to have a club. Even if they did, there's little to attract the average pet owner, particularly for those outside capital cities. I can't imagine someone in Broken Hill travelling to a breed day that's held in Sydney.

asal, I must say that I agree with Sheridan here. I don't even know exactly what happened to you but to be honest I find your posts extremely hard to read and verging on irrational. I read a lot more than I post on DOL, and I find myself skipping over your posts because I can't decipher what you are trying to say, and cringe when basically a seething hatred of a grand animal rights conspiracy is all that really comes through.

It's a shame, because you're obviously very passionate and have a lot of experience. I consider myself somebody who is very passionate about animal rights. There are kooks in the animal rights and welfare world as well as the show world, and every other group or people in the world. I think that on most accounts I understand the different sides of the dog world coin, and have sympathies that lie with breeders and rescuers, and can see the forest for the trees where it seems a lot of people can't. But I just.. don't understand you.

It is probably better that you dont.

stick to the ones who can express themselves so well like sheidan and Pebbles.

they are the future.

I was and am the past.

Edited December 27, 2012 by asal

[moosmum]

Asal I would agree that most complaints come from other breeders but thats across the board .If you ban breed clubs it will still happen and many complaints come from those who are not in a breed club about those who are.

Personally it makes no difference to me whether they all fall down or not but is there really a need to chase anyone who may be considering giving it a go off with a big wicked stick.?

Did I miss something?

I thought the discussion was why are breed clubs folding?

All I was meaning was the altered mindset and goals of todays members and breeders is what is eliminating not only future breeders but the very breeds they love.

change the culture, save the breed.

Although you wont see me volanteering to try any more, sadly I think its past the save timeline.

Can hope for a miricale of course.

but no Im not advocating banning breed clubs.

just advocating for a miracal or mesiah that might wake them up to whats really happening

This.

Its realy hard to find the words to express what we are seeing.

Asal is using her experience to try but its hard.

They say you get the committee you ask for,but the rules set the culture for the members they want.

Edited December 27, 2012 by moosmum

[Sheridan]

Asal I would agree that most complaints come from other breeders but thats across the board .If you ban breed clubs it will still happen and many complaints come from those who are not in a breed club about those who are.

Personally it makes no difference to me whether they all fall down or not but is there really a need to chase anyone who may be considering giving it a go off with a big wicked stick.?

Did I miss something?

I thought the discussion was why are breed clubs folding?

All I was meaning was the altered mindset and goals of todays members and breeders is what is eliminating not only future breeders but the very breeds they love.

change the culture, save the breed.

Although you wont see me volanteering to try any more, sadly I think its past the save timeline.

Can hope for a miricale of course.

but no Im not advocating banning breed clubs.

just advocating for a miracal or mesiah that might wake them up to whats really happening

This.

Its realy hard to find the words to express what we are seeing.

Asal is using her experience to try but its hard.

They say you get the committee you ask for,but the rules set the culture for the members they want.

Can you provide an example of these rules?

[Steve]

http://dogsnsw.org.au/images/stories/PDFS/Part_10_Affiliates.pdf

(b) So long as the Club is an Affiliate of Dogs NSW, every

member whether a member of Dogs NSW or not, shall be

deemed to have agreed with Dogs NSW to be bound by

the Rules and Regulations of Dogs NSW for the time

being in force and at all times to submit to and carry out

every determination, finding, decision, requirement or

direction of Dogs NSW so far as the same shall relate to

him; and

an undertaking in writing signed by its President and Secretary

that upon its admission as affiliate it will annually thereafter

furnish to Dogs NSW a detailed statement setting out its

contribution towards the furthering of the promotion of pure bred

dogs, a copy of any other report of its activities submitted to its

annual meeting together with a certificate that in the case of a

specialist club, it has at least fifteen (15) financial members

resident within the State, each of whom is a member of Dogs

NSW and is the owner of a specimen of the breed in respect of

which the club is aspecialist club, in the case of an all breeds or

general dog club, at least thirty (30) financial members (or such

other number as may have been determined by the Board of

Directors); 10/03

must conduct a regonised show during the 12 month period next following

its admission as an Affiliate; (10/97), (1/10)

(b) where applicable, must ensure that the first Championship Show conducted

by it, after affiliation is granted, is observed by a Show Representative

appointed by the Board as per Regulations Part II, Section 2, Regulation 2.9

(in addition to the Show Representative required to be appointed by the Show

Committee pursuant to Regulations Part II, Section 2, Regulation 2.8).

(10/97), (1/10)

No less frequently than once every calender year, an Affiliate shall

conduct, or cause to be conducted, a lecture on the Breed Standard

applicable to that Affiliate ('the Annual Lecture').

© The Annual Lecture shall:

(i) be open to all members and to members of the public;

(ii) be designed to provide informative and educative material for the

benefit of those attending;

(iii) include such informative and educative material as the Board of

Directors may from time to time require.

(d) An Affiliate shall give Dogs NSW. no less than six (6) months notice in

writing of the date, venue and speaker(s) at the Annual Lecture for

publication in the Journal.

And

http://dogsnsw.org.au/images/stories/PDFS/Part_10_Affiliates.pdf

CLUBS AND THEIR PURPOSES

It has become apparent that there are an increasing number of disputes within Clubs. In the

main these disputes involve breed Clubs and can also involve newly affiliated Clubs, and in all

cases the disputes detract from the Club’s ability to fulfil the purposes for which it was formed,

and the purpose for which it was affiliated with Dogs NSW.

In most cases the disputes are generated by or exacerbated by petty personality clashes that

often border on misconduct under Dogs NSW Rules and Regulations.

Another factor that contributes significantly to the disputes is Club mismanagement. This

mismanagement can arise from lack of knowledge; inability or unwillingness to learn; power

plays; adherence to ingrained incorrect methods, ideas and procedures; on committee for the

wrong reasons, e.g. kudos instead of commitment to the Club; and inability to cope with the

rigours of the task.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Steve

[lils mum]

And Steve, not all breeds have a breed club. Are you suggesting breeds can only survive if there is one? I'll point out that not all breeds have the numbers to have a club. Even if they did, there's little to attract the average pet owner, particularly for those outside capital cities. I can't imagine someone in Broken Hill travelling to a breed day that's held in Sydney.

It's not only 'breed days' that help owners be involved. Great newsletters can help - make members feel part of the community, ensure that the picture is about everything that can be done with that breed of dog - including family companionship.

It depends a lot on the committee and the people who are prepared to work tirelessly for the breed, not themselves IMHO

I know one of the NSW gundog breed specialty clubs has almost 300 memberships, 40% of those are interstate....

[Sheridan]

Steve, I don't want to repeat all that screed but it seems the "rules" consist of having to have championship show and a breed standard lecture within a particular period of time. I know there are also rules about the executive having to have one of the breed (which was what undone the previous wheaten club - the President didn't have a wheaten) and having to have a minimum number of members. However, outside of those, the members, I presume, can set the entire agenda. It doesn't have to be about showing.

[mita]

It's not only 'breed days' that help owners be involved. Great newsletters can help - make members feel part of the community, ensure that the picture is about everything that can be done with that breed of dog - including family companionship.

It depends a lot on the committee and the people who are prepared to work tirelessly for the breed...

I know one of the NSW gundog breed specialty clubs has almost 300 memberships, 40% of those are interstate....

Yes.

[Steve]

Steve, I don't want to repeat all that screed but it seems the "rules" consist of having to have championship show and a breed standard lecture within a particular period of time. I know there are also rules about the executive having to have one of the breed (which was what undone the previous wheaten club - the President didn't have a wheaten) and having to have a minimum number of members. However, outside of those, the members, I presume, can set the entire agenda. It doesn't have to be about showing.

Yes and as each club is incorporated they can set their own rules rather than go by the model rules in each state.

Look there is no doubt what ever that in some clubs there are major power plays and for me it was horrible and I would never consider joining a breed club again. Many would feel that being a member bought them under more notice and that if there were a power play or vindictiveness, competition etc going on being a member made them more vulnerable.

But .

None of this is new and its really obvious if you know where to look and regardless of what someone here might tell you I would be very surprised if one single breed didnt have at least some element of it with or without a club but it does seem to be amplified in some clubs. Its been going on forever and you see it very clearly right from the base of any breed in development.

Without a breed club the breed is in my opinion disadvantaged - who is charged with promoting the breed, who is watching out for patterns of genetic issues, temperament issues a growing tendency to breeding to extremes, who communicates and advocates for the breed to the registry etc - that's of course assuming they do what the general purpose of them existing is.

My point is if this particular issue alone were responsible for numerous breed clubs folding it would have happened long ago though I guess you could argue the consequences now of someone having the RSPCA hound you or setting film makers on you in the middle of the night, social media etc that the consequences of the bullying may be worse. I believe its about dropping numbers of breeders, and purebred puppies being bred which of course the breed clubs have been complicit in but the first step of addressing it has to be get more in and more bred in my opinion.

[Crisovar]

It is possible for breed specific clubs to be established as Social clubs and not run shows, many numerically smaller breeds do just that, and have social days, newsletters etc.

Politics and personalities come into play wherever there are groups of people it is not restricted to the dog world, it is the nature of the human beast :)

[Sheridan]

I know of a bunch of people with a particular breed who get together regularly for social days. No club, no formalities, and they seem to have more people and dogs than some breed clubs.

[Steve]

Actually thats probably an important point - of course anyone can start any club and it may be people who have one breed in common but within the purebred dog world a breed club is affiliated with the ANKC and therefore has some things they need to comply with which a club wouldn't if it were established with a similar but different primary goal.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Steve

[Sheridan]

And yet, a club that isn't affiliated with a different focus can still "save" a breed. It doesn't take ANKC affiliation to do great things for health and breeding, it just takes dedication.

[Crisovar]

Social clubs are recognised by the ANKC, they are not affiliated clubs and do not have to run shows, but they are recognised. There are 10 breed specific social clubs listed in each edition of The Queensland Dog World, all very active promoting breed information etc. Social clubs are not new they have always been around. Some go on to seek affiliation and run shows if there are sufficient breed numbers to do so.

[Steve]

And yet, a club that isn't affiliated with a different focus can still "save" a breed. It doesn't take ANKC affiliation to do great things for health and breeding, it just takes dedication.

Agreed.

[moosmum]

Asal I would agree that most complaints come from other breeders but thats across the board .If you ban breed clubs it will still happen and many complaints come from those who are not in a breed club about those who are.

Personally it makes no difference to me whether they all fall down or not but is there really a need to chase anyone who may be considering giving it a go off with a big wicked stick.?

Did I miss something?

I thought the discussion was why are breed clubs folding?

All I was meaning was the altered mindset and goals of todays members and breeders is what is eliminating not only future breeders but the very breeds they love.

change the culture, save the breed.

Although you wont see me volanteering to try any more, sadly I think its past the save timeline.

Can hope for a miricale of course.

but no Im not advocating banning breed clubs.

just advocating for a miracal or mesiah that might wake them up to whats really happening

This.

Its realy hard to find the words to express what we are seeing.

Asal is using her experience to try but its hard.

They say you get the committee you ask for,but the rules set the culture for the members they want.

Can you provide an example of these rules?

O.K.

I'm gonna try 1 more time.

In the thread "Look what they've done to our dogs" theres a link to the Norwegian approach to health issues.

There,they state that they prefer not to make more regulations because that drives more people away.

When PDE comes out,you say "no! Not more community restriction! It'll drive people away."

So you make more restrictions within.

Instead of saying "Members shall strive to achieve this" You say "Members shall NOT do that" Its not about what you want to achieve,accomplish or value .You won't make positives out of negatives.Its about what you won't tolerate.That invites and promotes judgement.You introduce a mind set and a set mind isn't what you need.

So,the easiest examples found on ANKC web page are in the code of Ethics as Asal says.

Take this one.11.Breeding.

A member shall breed primarily for the purpose of improving the quality and/or working ability of the breed in accordance with the breed standard....

Fine so far,But it goes on to say....and not specificaly for the pet or commercial market.

Why was that needed? The above should have covered it nicely.

You have introduced a judgement that pet and commercial markets are negative.No good.

Not only that,but any one who makes a profit,or doesn't consistently produce at the very least, show contenders,might be unethical.So you also have uncertainty.

The only rewards left for good breeders are trophies.Its not enough to have very happy pet buyers who will proudly tell others how good their pedigree dog is.Its no longer good enough to have sound healthy dogs with excellent conformation if they can't win a show.

Winning is every thing.Mind set.

Why shouldn't a breeder who is doing an out standing job be recognised for their time,effort and care by asking what the dog is worth from those who appreciate the quality? How else can they keep doing it unless money is no object?

All for a line that wasn't needed.

Every negative statement or ruling introduces a mind set thats going to influence the type of members you attract and how they treat each other and how they work.

Common goals are great unifiers.

Common "hatereds" can be too,but only while you have a common enemy.

Edited December 28, 2012 by moosmum