What Breed

[mixeduppup]

I adore kelpies but I honestly don't think one would work in the situation described. I'm not a huge fan of gsps but I think they would fit. SBTs are awesome dogs but they're not right for this particular situation imho

[Weasels]

I adore kelpies but I honestly don't think one would work in the situation described. I'm not a huge fan of gsps but I think they would fit. SBTs are awesome dogs but they're not right for this particular situation imho

+1 on all three points.

[Rebanne]

I understand HW's point. She didn't say they couldn't do agility, just that they aren't the ideal build. I have a GSD and while GSDs can do agility, most of the GSD people I have spoken to (breeders, owners, enthusiasts) agree that they are not an ideal breed to do competitive agility with due to their size and weight.

The point is HW's point is an uninformed point. It's the uninformed point of those who think that SBT's are muscle bound house bricks.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Muscular? definately, but athletic muscular.

Have a look at the video & see the ''build'' that is ripping the course up.

Not only ideal. Pretty well perfect. Seeing is believing.

There are plenty of dogs suited to the activity.

The SBT is one.

I do agree with you tho. Larger breeds like the GSD aren't suitable. They would struggle in the tunnel for a start. & the sharp turns would test them. It is a time trial after all.

It's the smaller more athletic & agile dogs forte.

you say HW makes an uniformed pont. So do you re GSD's in agility. I've been around since Agility first started in this country and I titled a GSD with no problems. At the same time there were several reg. staffies also competing well.

Then you played agility with the breed/dogs you already owned/bred. As things have progressed and Agility has become more "serious", then yes that's when the BC's/Aussies/Kelpies became more popular.

I have known people get rid of their chosen breed and buy an "agility" dog.

My suggestion to the OP is get a dog that you daughter can cope with and enjoy, winning is not the be all and end all of anything. If it was I wouldn't be showing a greyhound :laugh:

[BC Crazy]

Yes, I agree with huski & MUP on this one.

I adore Border Collies. Can't see myself owning any other breed until I'm physically unable to. They are just awesome. But , do I think they are for everyone. NO WAY ! They need a certain type of owner who is prepared to put in time & dedication IMHO. All too often they fall into the wrong hands.

Not saying that this is the case here but in general.

[juice]

I very rarely recommend any one my 3 breeds i own as i wouldn't want anyone taking any of them on easily.

I still think and Aussie shep would be a good fit, wouldn't ever own one myself.

I often recommend greys as they fit alot of niche's and are often overlooked, although not a suitable match this time. :)

[BC Crazy]

I rarely recommend BC's either.

I have lots of folks approach me from time to time admirining my dogs & saying how well behaved they are, blah blah. They really WANT one. Thats when I seaze the moment & explain some of what I think they need to have a happy, healthy life. Most of the time they look at me in amazement LOL. And usually we end up talking about another non working type breed as in most cases they just don't know but love the "look" of them.

Edited December 18, 2012 by BC Crazy

[jerry lee]

I understand HW's point. She didn't say they couldn't do agility, just that they aren't the ideal build. I have a GSD and while GSDs can do agility, most of the GSD people I have spoken to (breeders, owners, enthusiasts) agree that they are not an ideal breed to do competitive agility with due to their size and weight.

The point is HW's point is an uninformed point. It's the uninformed point of those who think that SBT's are muscle bound house bricks.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Muscular? definately, but athletic muscular.

Have a look at the video & see the ''build'' that is ripping the course up.

Not only ideal. Pretty well perfect. Seeing is believing.

There are plenty of dogs suited to the activity.

The SBT is one.

I do agree with you tho. Larger breeds like the GSD aren't suitable. They would struggle in the tunnel for a start. & the sharp turns would test them. It is a time trial after all.

It's the smaller more athletic & agile dogs forte.

you say HW makes an uniformed pont. So do you re GSD's in agility. I've been around since Agility first started in this country and I titled a GSD with no problems. At the same time there were several reg. staffies also competing well.

Then you played agility with the breed/dogs you already owned/bred. As things have progressed and Agility has become more "serious", then yes that's when the BC's/Aussies/Kelpies became more popular.

I have known people get rid of their chosen breed and buy an "agility" dog.

My suggestion to the OP is get a dog that you daughter can cope with and enjoy, winning is not the be all and end all of anything. If it was I wouldn't be showing a greyhound :laugh:

People are missing the point.

The request wasn't for an agilty breed. full stop.

It was for a breed an eleven year old girl could train & handle for agility which could also cope with living with two rough house dobermanns. & may I add also be the perfect companion dog for a youngster.

A staffy fits the bill perfectly so I suggested it.

Then I have had to defend my suggestion from criticism by people who no experience of the breed.

wouldn't know an SBT from a TAB.

One wonders if the breeds being touted as better than a staffy at agility could meet the rest of the criterior?

Or if the daughter would even want any of the breeds suggested anyhow.

Btw, given the request, I thought some of the breeds suggested were ridiculous. But I didn't need to say so.

The O.P. appears to be pretty savvy, they can sort out the wheat from the chaff.

What height would staffies doing agility be?...how long is a piece of string?

A well bred dog would be around the 40cms, give or take & weigh maybe 16-18 kgs.

A bitch would be a couple of cms & a couple of kgs less.

HW

Comparing a''fine'', slightly built breed like miniature poodle to a robust atheletic breed is a bit beyond the pale don't you think.

I can see why you wouldn't suggest a M.P It wouldn't survive the other bit of the equation.

The right type has to tick all the boxes.

Was it a M.P. you had to retire early? Knees couldn't go the distance?

You didn't answer my question regarding the beagle....a breed of similar height & build to the SBT. Do you really think a SBT would be three times heavier than a beagle?

Seriously?

[Salukifan]

People are missing the point.

The request wasn't for an agilty breed. full stop.

It was for a breed an eleven year old girl could train & handle for agility which could also cope with living with two rough house dobermanns. & may I add also be the perfect companion dog for a youngster.

A staffy fits the bill perfectly so I suggested it.

Then I have had to defend my suggestion from criticism by people who no experience of the breed.

wouldn't know an SBT from a TAB.

One wonders if the breeds being touted as better than a staffy at agility could meet the rest of the criterior?

Or if the daughter would even want any of the breeds suggested anyhow.

Btw, given the request, I thought some of the breeds suggested were ridiculous. But I didn't need to say so.

The O.P. appears to be pretty savvy, they can sort out the wheat from the chaff.

What height would staffies doing agility be?...how long is a piece of string?

A well bred dog would be around the 40cms, give or take & weigh maybe 16-18 kgs.

A bitch would be a couple of cms & a couple of kgs less.

HW

Comparing a''fine'', slightly built breed like miniature poodle to a robust atheletic breed is a bit beyond the pale don't you think.

I can see why you wouldn't suggest a M.P It wouldn't survive the other bit of the equation.

The right type has to tick all the boxes.

Was it a M.P. you had to retire early? Knees couldn't go the distance?

You didn't answer my question regarding the beagle....a breed of similar height & build to the SBT. Do you really think a SBT would be three times heavier than a beagle?

Seriously?

I know sweet FA about Beagle weights Jerry Lee, and since I wouldn't recommend one as an agility prospect and you don't see many in agility, I don't see what point their relative weights make.

Yes, it was a Miniature Poodle that I had to retire. No there are no issues with his knees. He managed to gain an Endurance Title just fine.

He has a congenital spinal deformity in his neck that didn't manifest any symptoms until he was six years old. Broke my heart to retire him two quallies short of his Masters title but he never trained or competed again from the day it was diagnosed. He's now 9 and going just fine. Not that you give a damn if it will help you defend a position that no one is trying to force you to take.

[Simply Grand]

The height they generally jump is not really how long is a piece of string because there are set heights for the jumps and dogs compete grouped with other dogs based on those heights. I'm trying to be open minded and form my own opinion on SBTs and agility so I'd like to know how they would compare to my own dogs and others I've seen course-wise.

ETA - I've just reread what you said about the height - I'm not asking how tall the dog is, I'm asking what height they jump, as explained above. It's important to both your chances competition wise and even more so, the health of the dog, that they are being run at the appropriate height.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Simply Grand

[RiverStar-Aura]

People are missing the point.

The request wasn't for an agilty breed. full stop.

It was for a breed an eleven year old girl could train & handle for agility which could also cope with living with two rough house dobermanns. & may I add also be the perfect companion dog for a youngster.

A staffy fits the bill perfectly so I suggested it.

Then I have had to defend my suggestion from criticism by people who no experience of the breed.

wouldn't know an SBT from a TAB.

One wonders if the breeds being touted as better than a staffy at agility could meet the rest of the criterior?

Or if the daughter would even want any of the breeds suggested anyhow.

Btw, given the request, I thought some of the breeds suggested were ridiculous. But I didn't need to say so.

The O.P. appears to be pretty savvy, they can sort out the wheat from the chaff.

What height would staffies doing agility be?...how long is a piece of string?

A well bred dog would be around the 40cms, give or take & weigh maybe 16-18 kgs.

A bitch would be a couple of cms & a couple of kgs less.

HW

Comparing a''fine'', slightly built breed like miniature poodle to a robust atheletic breed is a bit beyond the pale don't you think.

I can see why you wouldn't suggest a M.P It wouldn't survive the other bit of the equation.

The right type has to tick all the boxes.

Was it a M.P. you had to retire early? Knees couldn't go the distance?

You didn't answer my question regarding the beagle....a breed of similar height & build to the SBT. Do you really think a SBT would be three times heavier than a beagle?

Seriously?

Wow!! Way to come out guns a blazing and defensive!

I wouldn't recommend a SBT for a child to take soul responsibility either. As a breed, they are big galoots (even the announcer on your Crufts video called them 'the clowns of the terrier group') and would be too strong for a child to handle.

Even after suggesting an Aussie Terrier, I'd prefer to see the OP work with the 3 dogs she currently has before settling on the fourth.

I actually feel bad for Cinders -- why not contemplate a dog suitable for her rather than one to play with the Dobes?

Edited December 18, 2012 by RiverStar-Aura

[jerry lee]

The height they generally jump is not really how long is a piece of string because there are set heights for the jumps and dogs compete grouped with other dogs based on those heights. I'm trying to be open minded and form my own opinion on SBTs and agility so I'd like to know how they would compare to my own dogs and others I've seen course-wise.

ETA - I've just reread what you said about the height - I'm not asking how tall the dog is, I'm asking what height they jump, as explained above. It's important to both your chances competition wise and even more so, the health of the dog, that they are being run at the appropriate height.

I took your question of what height do staffies run at in as mean the height of trialer. seeing heighty & weight seems to be the issue with some critics.

Sorry about that.

The jumps height for the staffies, as medium sized dogs is, I believe 400mm/16".

My dogs can jump over each other at full run with out any problem. That is, both parties running at speed. So 400mm is not a problem.

I keep saying but nobody seems to believe it. This breed is an athletic breed.

Hey, I don't eat macca's, I reckon it's crap.

But at least I tried it BEFORE I reached that opinion... If you get my drift.

HW. The reason you don't know the weight of a beagle is because you can't reference it by reading their standard, unlike the SBT, the beagle doesn't have a listed weight parameter.

Surely there are beagles doing agility somewhere, so your ''three times the weight'' claim is still a nonsense.

Funny how out of all the suggestions offered the only one to draw comments & predominately from people without any first hand experience of the breed, is the SBT.

Go figure.

The key board experts are present & accounted for.

Would anyone care to critique the video link I posted?

Did the little guys do good or not?

Surely the ''they aren't any good for agilty'' push must feel a little silly after watching the little warriors rip it up. & how much did they enjoy it?

I thought they were all particularly impressive across the beam, despites HW claim their chest size would count them out on that particular apparatus.

[TessiesTracey]

I wouldn't recommend a stafford as a good agility prospect on a weight for height basis. Sure, some do it but you'd struggle to maintain soundness in a lot of dogs.

Frankly, as others have said, you won't keep any pup sound if it free runs with your Dobermanns

The tone of your posts suggest you don't think very highly of the SBT.

That's o'k, not everyone likes every breed.

But you comments regarding height to weight show you don't know enough about the breed to comment on them at all.

Look & learn.

Kinda have to agree here. (And so glad someone put up the clip of my old breed club :))

I was just about to say - what Staffords have you been observing Haredown Whippets? :) Height to weight? Really? :)

I can name several Staffords that have gained top agility titles.

But I have to agree with Sandra777. A Stafford probably wouldn't be the best choice in this particular case.

Did you listen to the commentary?

That was very interesting.

Most, if not all dogs live in multi dog homes, & not just staffies only homes.

What would be of interest to the O.P. is one lives with a dobermann & two chihuahuas, interesting combination.

Another was usually handled by an eleven year old girl who was unavailable on that day.

As a staffy person you must have been impressed by Mouse, the white boy with the black eye patch. He has junior warrants in both agility & conformation.

A little girl, Mia from memory, is a member of GB's agility team.

Not bad for a breed ''unsuitable'' for agility.

There was a couple of oldies in there also, both past ten. Bloody marvellous.

Plus three or four rescues.

edit.

Forgot to mention.

One has been trained as a gundog & has featured in a couple of gundog mags.

Like I said earlier.

A foremost all rounder is the SBT.

Did I listen to the commentary? Mate, I've listened and watched that clip more times than I can count!

I know Mouse and her owner, Jo-Ann and her previous dogs, one named Bacon who was an amazingly positive representation of the breed plus she was pretty good at agility too.

I AM an avid Stafford person (sorry don't do 'staffy' lol) having owned the breed for almost 18 collective years. But I'm also a realist - a hell of a lot of Staffords would NOT be good in a multi breed home. That doesn't mean ALL.. just a LOT.

Some Staffords just don't like other dogs - period.

Pretty sure I haven't said that they are 'unsuitable' for agility? Look up Sarah Adams and her team - one of my favourite Staffords EVER is one of the best agility Staffords - CH Daydream London Calling CD MX MXJ OF CA aka Tess...

You said that the original quest by the OP was not for a agility dog full stop, "It was for a breed an eleven year old girl could train & handle for agility which could also cope with living with two rough house dobermanns. & may I add also be the perfect companion dog for a youngster." - Yes a Stafford could fulfill so much of that criteria, but NOT necessarily the roughhouse Dobermanns, and not necessarily for an 11 year old girl. You know how strong they can be?

Even as I'm typing this I find myself sounding contradictory - Staffords can be so, so biddable, but also so so bloody minded and stubborn! lol

Sorry and all that, but I just don't see it.

Jerry Lee, you're saying you're having to defend your suggestion, but even when more than one Stafford 'person' says that the breed might not be the best for this particular case, you're jumping on them just as quick! Myself included.

You're barking up the wrong tree.

They're the greatest breed in the world as far as I'm concerned, but it doesn't mean they're suitable for all households, or this one case in particular. I can accept that! :)

Apologies in advance viewers for the gratuitous SBT agility vid!

[DobieMum]

Enough!! Thankyou, I really appreciate everyone's comments and we now have a lot to think of. This isn't something we're planning on rushing into and we'll look at all the different breeds of dogs. Thanks

[tarope]

We're looking for a breed of dog for my daughter. I have Dobermanns and they're rough, so little dogs have proven to be out. My daughter is a tall 11 year old and was training with agility and lure coursing. We're after ideas of what sort of breed of dog to get her. Something that doesn't mind the rough and tumble of the Dobies, but something that a kid (with myself and other adults supervise) can train (something that doesn't need too much encouragement, as she doesn't get physically excited - as she gets embarrassed - even though me and her instructor tell her otherwise). What does the DOL forum suggest.

What about a Collie Rough a very gentle dog but does need grooming, had one for 14.5 years or a Collie Smooth not so much grooming.

[jerry lee]

Tessies Tracy.

Great vids.

Helped me prove my point, again, whether you meant to or not. Thanks for that.

I never reply to the "what breed should I get for a pet'' threads by recommending staffies. ( I am a staffy person & happily so ) old school I guess)

This was an exception due to the variety of challenges. & the suggestion by a previous poster that I follow up on.

I thought then as I think now the staffy is a good choice to get the jobs required done.

Firstly, as I stated earlier, it is my experience a staffy introduced as puppy will bond with whatever other animals are already there.

Secondly, it is a doggy home with a definate goal for the dog & I figured with the subsequent early training the dog would bond with the young girl & be easily managed by her because of the regular training. When I had plans for agility the dog had to reach a certain level of obedience before the club would allow it to start agility training.

Next, believing in the puppy bonding I mentioned earlier I don't believe there would be an issue with the three dogs living together.

The reason I kept on is more to do with the ridiculous reasons given why the breed isn't suitable for agility.

Because they are three times heavier than other breeds of a comparable height...

Their constuction is all wrong, because their toes point slighty out at rest their pasterns wont stand up to the jumping & landing.

Their chest are too wide or too narrow, I'm not sure which it was, both are equally ridiculous anyhow, to manage the beam.

The jumps are too high for them.

Well the vids have conclusively dispelled all those misnomers.

I obtained my first staffy in 1985.

He lived with my one rottie first & then a second later, without any trouble.

In fact he & my rottie male were inseparable.

The rotty died in 1996, the staffy a year later. my other rotty a year after that.

I had a break from dogs for a while & have been back with staffies since 1999.

I do get a little annoyed when I read misinformation offered as fact by those with no experience of this wonderful breed.

They didn't become the most popular terrier in the country without good reason.

[Salukifan]

I do get a little annoyed when I read misinformation offered as fact by those with no experience of this wonderful breed.

They didn't become the most popular terrier in the country without good reason.

I wonder if you might consider that it's possible to have similar thoughts about those with no experience in agility stating that a particular breed is "highly suitable".

My guess is not. :)

It's called a dog walk by the way, not a beam.

[Rebanne]

Jerry Lee time to put a sock in it. Thank you.

[Sayreovi]

Because they are three times heavier than other breeds of a comparable height...

Their constuction is all wrong, because their toes point slighty out at rest their pasterns wont stand up to the jumping & landing.

Their chest are too wide or too narrow, I'm not sure which it was, both are equally ridiculous anyhow, to manage the beam.

I suggest reading the book 'Structure in Action - The makings of a durable dog by Pat Hastings'

May answer why experienced agility folk are saying this........

No one is saying they CAN'T do it, of course they can, people are saying that they aren't extremely suitable.

[Salukifan]

I would never discourage anyone with an SBT from doing agility. I'd be suggesting they keep the dog lean and keep it chiropracted but I recommend that for all agility dogs.

However if someone asks what breed I'd recommend for agility, they are not on the list.

My guess is that the differences between those two responses is lost on some.

[mixeduppup]

There's breed advocacy and then there's breed blindness.

Jerry Lee, just because someone doesn't suggest an SBT isn't a personal attack on you. Of course some staffords will be good at agility, no one is saying they won't be. Everyone has their own opinions and for this particular situation the general consensus is that an SBT would not fit. It's not because of breed prejudice or limited knowledge of the breed, it's because an SBT just wouldn't work in this situation. I would never suggest an SBT for an 11 year old's first training experience and not with the current dogs. She needs a dog that is biddable and easy (staffords require experienced ownership whether you accept that or not), so that she can have a great first experience.

Edited December 19, 2012 by mixeduppup