Would You Let Your Dog Meet/socialize With An Aggressive/fearful One?

[chuckandsteve]

What sort of pleasure does the owner of a fearful or aggressive dog think the animal gets from "socialising"

This exactly! I have a DA dog (fear based) and he gets no pleasure being too close to strange dogs. He loves to play with my other dogs and in no way is he missing out on anything because he can't socialise with random dogs.

My dog isnt DA off lead, but i think teaching him to interact with other dogs is important as what if something goes wrong one day. He escapes the yard, i trip drop the lead??

If you have a DA dog you have to make sure these things don't happen. Most DA dogs can't be taught to interact in a friendly way, the training that is done to help the dog is about managing things so that interaction with other dogs is avoided and so that the DA dogs threshold is raised to cope with being able to be near other dogs. Actual interaction with other dogs isn't recommended for dogs that are DA. Too dangerous.

Thats a nice thought but s**t happens. Thats like saying you must make sure your never in a car accident. Nice in theory but not possible.

My dog has never got away from me, never escaped. How many times has he been charged by off lead dogs?? 7 in 1 year. So while preventing the situation is important so is getting yourself some level of calm to deal with the rest of the population.

[Staffyluv]

I think I would under very controlled conditions.

I wouldn't have with my old Stafford but Ziggy is such a happy go lucky boof head and although he can be a bit in your face (he gets very excited at the sight of other dogs and we have made huge imprivements in this area),he has shown no aggression at all.

He is not deterred by dogs lunging at him, he just moves away and ignores them..

So an onlead walk where they don't come into contact with each other to help the other dog become accustomed to other dogs near them would be fine with me. I am no expert in this sort of thing but would be happy to work with a behaviourist to help another dog.

I don't think Ziggy would be adversely affected by this sort of thing..

[corvus]

I have with both my dogs in certain circumstances, but I am very wary of using stooge dogs repeatedly. I think that as soon as you are doing it for the benefit of another dog, it becomes easy to see what you want to see rather than what is really happening. One of my dogs is very socially adept and non-aggressive and would probably make a good therapy dog for other dogs, but I don't think I'd do it. Sometimes it's hard to tell how comfortable he is because he shows discomfort in friendly ways, like with play bows, or very subtle ways. For all that he is gentle and tends to be calm, things do get to him. You just have to look really hard to see it. I don't trust my ability to look hard enough to monitor him while also monitoring the dog in need of therapy. My boy's social skills are beautiful to behold and something I cherish on a daily basis. It is not something to take for granted or mess with lightly. The degree of control of the situation is a secondary consideration to me. Having control is not much good if you don't know when to exert it.

[Katdogs]

I have with both my dogs in certain circumstances, but I am very wary of using stooge dogs repeatedly. I think that as soon as you are doing it for the benefit of another dog, it becomes easy to see what you want to see rather than what is really happening. One of my dogs is very socially adept and non-aggressive and would probably make a good therapy dog for other dogs, but I don't think I'd do it. Sometimes it's hard to tell how comfortable he is because he shows discomfort in friendly ways, like with play bows, or very subtle ways. For all that he is gentle and tends to be calm, things do get to him. You just have to look really hard to see it. I don't trust my ability to look hard enough to monitor him while also monitoring the dog in need of therapy. My boy's social skills are beautiful to behold and something I cherish on a daily basis. It is not something to take for granted or mess with lightly. The degree of control of the situation is a secondary consideration to me. Having control is not much good if you don't know when to exert it.

Stevie is the bomb-proof 'therapy' dog that was overused at obedience training to be the stooge. She would just sit there and cop it - barking, growling, the occasional humping ( ) even though it was supervised by the 'trainer', I eventually realised I had to say No - this is not good for my dog - she's not comfortable in this situation any more and I don't want to break her. Sadly she was about the only bomb-proof dog in the higher class!

[Greytmate]

What sort of pleasure does the owner of a fearful or aggressive dog think the animal gets from "socialising"

This exactly! I have a DA dog (fear based) and he gets no pleasure being too close to strange dogs. He loves to play with my other dogs and in no way is he missing out on anything because he can't socialise with random dogs.

My dog isnt DA off lead, but i think teaching him to interact with other dogs is important as what if something goes wrong one day. He escapes the yard, i trip drop the lead??

If you have a DA dog you have to make sure these things don't happen. Most DA dogs can't be taught to interact in a friendly way, the training that is done to help the dog is about managing things so that interaction with other dogs is avoided and so that the DA dogs threshold is raised to cope with being able to be near other dogs. Actual interaction with other dogs isn't recommended for dogs that are DA. Too dangerous.

Thats a nice thought but s**t happens. Thats like saying you must make sure your never in a car accident. Nice in theory but not possible.

My dog has never got away from me, never escaped. How many times has he been charged by off lead dogs?? 7 in 1 year. So while preventing the situation is important so is getting yourself some level of calm to deal with the rest of the population.

Yes shit happens. I guess it is like a car accident, if you choose to own a car with brake problems you are in serious trouble if that causes an accident. Same if your DA dog gets loose and hurts other dogs.

But that isn't the point. The point is that socialisation doesn't help DA dogs. It can actually make them worse.

So if you have a dog with problems professionals help. Don't take it near other dogs or try to socialise it yourself.

Edited December 9, 2012 by Greytmate

[chuckandsteve]

What sort of pleasure does the owner of a fearful or aggressive dog think the animal gets from "socialising"

This exactly! I have a DA dog (fear based) and he gets no pleasure being too close to strange dogs. He loves to play with my other dogs and in no way is he missing out on anything because he can't socialise with random dogs.

My dog isnt DA off lead, but i think teaching him to interact with other dogs is important as what if something goes wrong one day. He escapes the yard, i trip drop the lead??

If you have a DA dog you have to make sure these things don't happen. Most DA dogs can't be taught to interact in a friendly way, the training that is done to help the dog is about managing things so that interaction with other dogs is avoided and so that the DA dogs threshold is raised to cope with being able to be near other dogs. Actual interaction with other dogs isn't recommended for dogs that are DA. Too dangerous.

Thats a nice thought but s**t happens. Thats like saying you must make sure your never in a car accident. Nice in theory but not possible.

My dog has never got away from me, never escaped. How many times has he been charged by off lead dogs?? 7 in 1 year. So while preventing the situation is important so is getting yourself some level of calm to deal with the rest of the population.

Yes shit happens. I guess it is like a car accident, if you choose to own a car with brake problems you are in serious trouble if that causes an accident. Same if your DA dog gets loose and hurts other dogs.

But that isn't the point. The point is that socialisation doesn't help DA dogs. It can actually make them worse.

So if you have a dog with problems professionals help. Don't take it near other dogs or try to socialise it yourself.

So your advice is that all DA dogs deserve to be put down because you can't 100% avoid being rushed by other dogs?? or 75 things going wrong and dog escaping? In my sisters neighbourhood they actually had someone go around and release all the dogs from backyards how do you avoid that?

I work with a professional trainer and her recommendation has been to socialise my dog. The more interaction he gets with other dogs the better he has become.

[megan_]

It also depends on what people think socialization means. People tend to interpret in the human sense " go out and make lots of friends, play endlessly" when, in dog terms it should mean "be comfortable around other dogs. Be around them without the need to play or react".

[Cosmolo]

I use a few of my dogs with aggressive or reactive dogs in very controlled situations. I choose which dog is used in which situation as they are all different. 2 of my dogs are what i would call bombproof while the other 3 can be used successfully in various situations. One of the bombproof dogs is SO relaxed during this type of work, it's amazing. BUT that kind of trust is a VERY serious responsibility for us to have and we take it VERY seriously.

You can damage even a 'bombproof' dog if you are not extremely careful. And just because a dog can tolerate something doesn't mean they should have to. Tolerance is not the same as the dog being completely relaxed and comfortable in the given situation. It's something to be quite cautious with if you don't want to create problems in your dogs.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Cosmolo

[megan_]

Agree Cosmolo - Fergus is a relaxed happy boy who responds very well to other dogs and reads their signals well. However, he is a sensitive, submissive dog so I wouldn't ever use him for this type of exercise.

[Cosmolo]

It's interesting to consider submission too. None of the dogs i have ever seen do well being used for this kind of work have been what one would describe as submissive.

[Katdogs]

It's interesting to consider submission too. None of the dogs i have ever seen do well being used for this kind of work have been what one would describe as submissive.

Yes. Stevie's not submissive. She just doesn't care about anything else when there's food in my hand!

[MarieEvans]

I would have done the same thing. I read somewhere that if your dog seems to be lunged at or shown aggressiveness by another dog then maybe you shouldn't let your dog play with those dogs. If I would see dogs that are aggressive, I would apply the art of avoidance and just walk straight ahead with my dog beside me without even acknowledging the presence of that dog. I don't want my dog to become fearful because she was attacked by an aggressive dog.

[espinay2]

I have with both my dogs in certain circumstances, but I am very wary of using stooge dogs repeatedly. I think that as soon as you are doing it for the benefit of another dog, it becomes easy to see what you want to see rather than what is really happening. One of my dogs is very socially adept and non-aggressive and would probably make a good therapy dog for other dogs, but I don't think I'd do it. Sometimes it's hard to tell how comfortable he is because he shows discomfort in friendly ways, like with play bows, or very subtle ways. For all that he is gentle and tends to be calm, things do get to him. You just have to look really hard to see it. I don't trust my ability to look hard enough to monitor him while also monitoring the dog in need of therapy. My boy's social skills are beautiful to behold and something I cherish on a daily basis. It is not something to take for granted or mess with lightly. The degree of control of the situation is a secondary consideration to me. Having control is not much good if you don't know when to exert it.

Agree totally with this. While trying to help another dog is honourable, we have to remember that as our dogs leader, they put a lot of trust in that. If we are putting our dog into situations where they are uncomfortable and 'at risk' that can be a 'failing' on our part as a leader. We have to be VERY careful that the dogs trust that we will do right by them as a leader is not compromised and that we don't 'leave them hanging' with another dog because we think they will cope with it. IT is our job as leader to control and protect and get between in these situations and in some cases, if we don't that relationship of trust that we will be there to stand up for them may be damaged, even if subtly.

[chuckandsteve]

I dont think that people are suggesting you walk your up to a dog who is reacting. But rather allowing them to come close whilst being calm, once the reactive dog reacts you end the exercise. Dogs lunge all the time in class and most people with reactive dogs will see this before it happens. Mine the ears go and thats it he is moved away.

You need a calm dog and a non idiot handler to work with the reactive dog. Anything within reach should only be 3 seconds and then away. I wouldnt allow an off lead meet without a highly qualified trainer present

[megan_]

I dont think that people are suggesting you walk your up to a dog who is reacting. But rather allowing them to come close whilst being calm, once the reactive dog reacts you end the exercise. Dogs lunge all the time in class and most people with reactive dogs will see this before it happens. Mine the ears go and thats it he is moved away.

You need a calm dog and a non idiot handler to work with the reactive dog. Anything within reach should only be 3 seconds and then away. I wouldnt allow an off lead meet without a highly qualified trainer present

Once the dog reacts they have breached the threshold and the exercise has gone too far. All you are doing is validating that reacting = scarey things go away = good (note to dog: React more! It gets results).

You need more than a calm dog too. My boy is very calm with great manners, but it submissive and sensitive - not a good candidate to be put in the position of stooge dog.

[chuckandsteve]

I dont think that people are suggesting you walk your up to a dog who is reacting. But rather allowing them to come close whilst being calm, once the reactive dog reacts you end the exercise. Dogs lunge all the time in class and most people with reactive dogs will see this before it happens. Mine the ears go and thats it he is moved away.

You need a calm dog and a non idiot handler to work with the reactive dog. Anything within reach should only be 3 seconds and then away. I wouldnt allow an off lead meet without a highly qualified trainer present

Once the dog reacts they have breached the threshold and the exercise has gone too far. All you are doing is validating that reacting = scarey things go away = good (note to dog: React more! It gets results).

You need more than a calm dog too. My boy is very calm with great manners, but it submissive and sensitive - not a good candidate to be put in the position of stooge dog.

Yes your right, bad explanation. Though I will admit mine gets a bark in quicker than I can react sometimes.

[aussielover]

No way would I let her meet an aggressive dog.

She has met with some "fearful" dogs, but they weren't actually aggressive just scared. She is quite steady and indifferent but there is no way I'd put her in a situation with a fear biter or outright DA dog. When pushed, she is submissive to other dogs, so probably isn't the best demo dog herself as she can sometimes react in a fearful/submissive way if she doesn't like the look of the dog.

Sometimes she is even submissive to puppies and tiny fluffy dogs.

[BoxerB]

Not a chance. Have a Boxer pup who is very very dog and people friendly and wants to do nothing but play. He knows how to act around different dog types big or small and I would never risk changing his outlook on other dogs because someone else would benefit.

[Cosmolo]

It's just so much more complicated and risky than what some people think. Of course there are simple straight forward situations too- but 99% of people won't know whether what they are dealing with is so OR is one of the riskier more dangerous situations- until it's too late.

Don't ever underestimate the difference that the presence and interaction of the owner makes too- you might think you can read and control the dogs involved but it's the human behaviour, relationship AND prior learning with the dog that can take what seems a safe situation and turn it into a dangerous one.

The consequences for making a mistake are very high. Early in my training career i made an error of judgement while doing this kind of work. I was lucky not to end up with a dead dog.

My advice- unless you are a professional with lots of experience, DON'T do it.

[m-j]

It's just so much more complicated and risky than what some people think. Of course there are simple straight forward situations too- but 99% of people won't know whether what they are dealing with is so OR is one of the riskier more dangerous situations- until it's too late.

Don't ever underestimate the difference that the presence and interaction of the owner makes too- you might think you can read and control the dogs involved but it's the human behaviour, relationship AND prior learning with the dog that can take what seems a safe situation and turn it into a dangerous one.

The consequences for making a mistake are very high. Early in my training career i made an error of judgement while doing this kind of work. I was lucky not to end up with a dead dog.

My advice- unless you are a professional with lots of experience, DON'T do it.

I agree

I use a toy dog before I bring my dogs out, there are two reasons the toy dogs body language can be manipulated by me so I can see if that upsets the aggro dog (above threshold initially) and then as we are getting closer if it does go pear shaped Fido cops it and not my dogs (not that he has and the dogs do think he is real). The second reason is it gives the owner of the dog the opportunity to learn how to get their dog behave appropriately without the owner stressing and again if it goes pear shaped no harm done.