People's Prejudice Against Dog Breeders.

[Chocolatelover]

.1 Sell or dispose of a dog to a commercial pet wholesaler or retail pet shop unless they

are accredited by the Pet Industry Association of Australia Limited (PIAA).

Wonderful! So ANKC breeders CAN dispose of dogs to a commercial seller.....as long as the commercial seller is a PIAA member. I despair on this point

Bit slow this has been the case for about 20 years now - Its how hundreds a month go out via transpet to a pet shop in Hawaii, its why pet shop people are telling us that most of their puppies come from registered breeders , its why Dogs NSW backed PIAA against Clover Moore's bill.

Wow! I didn't know that. No wonder it is so hard for breeders doing the right thing! I'm beginning to think I'd prefer to buy from an "unregistered" ethical breeder who health tests and does the right thing by the dogs. Do you know if this applies to all the states Steve?

[Rebanne]

21. A breeder shall be expected to maintain reasonable contact with the purchasers of dogs from

that breeder and to offer continued advice and reasonable assistance.

How often do we see on this forum that 'breeders' disappear into thin air the second the puppies owner seeks advice or support.

I have a puppy buyer that has cut off all contact, so it cuts both ways.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Pondering this overnight I think that it also depends on the breed. Some place quite easily, others don't. Some face a lot of BYB competition, others don't. Some breeders screen more rigorously because they have to check a wider variety of criteria to assess whether the home is suitable. In some breeds the impact of taking a dog back into the breeders pack is much higher than in others. Ultimately tho I think you have to arrange your breeding program to account for all this.

[tdierikx]

When I buy a pup or dog from any source, I expect only to get what I'm paying for... a healthy pet that I can share my life with.

I don't expect for someone else to pick up after me if my life circumstances change - I still have choices there when it comes to my pets. I have moved into accommodation that wasn't pristine in order to live somewhere that allowed pets... and would have no qualms about living in my car if it meant keeping them with me.

I don't want anyone dictating to me how I raise my pets, and I don't want anyone dictating where I get them from either. If I want to adopt a registered purebreed, I will most likely do a bit of research into breeds and breeders of same... and them taking the dog back at any time no matter what is definitely NOT high on the list of things I'm going to be looking for. Same goes for adopting from rescue or the pound, or from the other myriad sources out there.

What I would expect from the source of any pet I was looking to buy/adopt is some assurance that said pet will be suitable for me and my lifestyle. I do not expect a 100% guarantee that my pet will be "perfect", but I do expect it to be healthy and free from any congenital defect that can be prevented by testing and selective breeding to reduce the possibility of same. How the pet grows and develops along the way is as much MY responsibility as that of the breeder.

T.

[Steve]

Until you are there until it happens you can preach what you think people should do and be adamant about what you would do but lets look at a breeder who lives in a position where they are limited by the numbers of dogs they can have on their property or a breeder who has had a disaster which is making it difficult for them to cope with whats on their plate .Its one thing to ask a breeder to be take a dog back 6 months after it goes home but seriously should a breeder always have one or two spaces available with enough money in the bank to cover expenses for 15 years in case it happens? Is it really O.K. to put it in a kennel and leave it there because you dont have enough time or resources to do the right thing by it. Is it really O.K. to allow it to negatively impact on your whole existence and the animals you have just to look to the outside world that you are what their definition of ethical is?

Shit happens all the time and life for everyone including for breeders doesnt always pan out the way you think it will today and Ive seen what happens when someone takes em back when they shouldn't. People who have a large breed and already on the limit for numbers they are able to keep via local law who have had to move from where they lived due to a death in the family rotate dogs and only let them outside two at a time so the neighbours cant see how many they have ,where dog shit is up the walls and you stick to the floor ,where we have had to pay extra money to people to help us drag out 7 dead dog bodies from the spare bedroom. Sure some of this is mental illness and hoarding but often it sometimes starts or is exasperated because of the pressure that's on to be seen to be ethical when whats best for the dogs would have been to say id love to help but right now I cant!

the expectation is too high and the punishment you serve out when someone says they cant do what is expected by branding them unethical is unjust. By the way the MDBA offers support for breeders and rescue members who have a dog that is in trouble which they cant take back themselves because we know sometimes there needs to be an alternative and some help which you dont get beaten up over even if you think there shouldn't be.

[Steve]

.1 Sell or dispose of a dog to a commercial pet wholesaler or retail pet shop unless they

are accredited by the Pet Industry Association of Australia Limited (PIAA).

Wonderful! So ANKC breeders CAN dispose of dogs to a commercial seller.....as long as the commercial seller is a PIAA member. I despair on this point

Bit slow this has been the case for about 20 years now - Its how hundreds a month go out via transpet to a pet shop in Hawaii, its why pet shop people are telling us that most of their puppies come from registered breeders , its why Dogs NSW backed PIAA against Clover Moore's bill.

Wow! I didn't know that. No wonder it is so hard for breeders doing the right thing! I'm beginning to think I'd prefer to buy from an "unregistered" ethical breeder who health tests and does the right thing by the dogs. Do you know if this applies to all the states Steve?

It doesn't say that in all states and I think from memory there is still at least one state where they say you cant but its already been tested at law and they cant stop you anyway .

its not going to help you much going to an unregistered breeder who tells you what they do as their ethics - same problem .Human nature makes people want to do small things or sometimes big things which they think no one will know about.If you make a promise to your Mum that you wont piddle in the shower and you do - how will she know? But if she finds out you are doing it she will hold you accountable so there are two things which may make you do as you are told one is integrity - you said you wouldn't so you don't the other is fear of being found out but if you have no integrity,no real love for the animals and no one is holding you accountable you can agree to anything and then do as you like whether you are registered or not.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Steve

[Guest crickets]

Until you are there until it happens you can preach what you think people should do and be adamant about what you would do but lets look at a breeder who lives in a position where they are limited by the numbers of dogs they can have on their property or a breeder who has had a disaster which is making it difficult for them to cope with whats on their plate .Its one thing to ask a breeder to be take a dog back 6 months after it goes home but seriously should a breeder always have one or two spaces available with enough money in the bank to cover expenses for 15 years in case it happens? Is it really O.K. to put it in a kennel and leave it there because you dont have enough time or resources to do the right thing by it. Is it really O.K. to allow it to negatively impact on your whole existence and the animals you have just to look to the outside world that you are what their definition of ethical is?

Shit happens all the time and life for everyone including for breeders doesnt always pan out the way you think it will today and Ive seen what happens when someone takes em back when they shouldn't. People who have a large breed and already on the limit for numbers they are able to keep via local law who have had to move from where they lived due to a death in the family rotate dogs and only let them outside two at a time so the neighbours cant see how many they have ,where dog shit is up the walls and you stick to the floor ,where we have had to pay extra money to people to help us drag out 7 dead dog bodies from the spare bedroom. Sure some of this is mental illness and hoarding but often it sometimes starts or is exasperated because of the pressure that's on to be seen to be ethical when whats best for the dogs would have been to say id love to help but right now I cant!

the expectation is too high and the punishment you serve out when someone says they cant do what is expected by branding them unethical is unjust. By the way the MDBA offers support for breeders and rescue members who have a dog that is in trouble which they cant take back themselves because we know sometimes there needs to be an alternative and some help which you dont get beaten up over even if you think there shouldn't be.

Thanks Steve for reminding me of the house of horror while i'm eating my breakfast

And a perfect example of why some breeders shouldn't even consider taking their own dogs back!

[Steve]

Until you are there until it happens you can preach what you think people should do and be adamant about what you would do but lets look at a breeder who lives in a position where they are limited by the numbers of dogs they can have on their property or a breeder who has had a disaster which is making it difficult for them to cope with whats on their plate .Its one thing to ask a breeder to be take a dog back 6 months after it goes home but seriously should a breeder always have one or two spaces available with enough money in the bank to cover expenses for 15 years in case it happens? Is it really O.K. to put it in a kennel and leave it there because you dont have enough time or resources to do the right thing by it. Is it really O.K. to allow it to negatively impact on your whole existence and the animals you have just to look to the outside world that you are what their definition of ethical is?

Shit happens all the time and life for everyone including for breeders doesnt always pan out the way you think it will today and Ive seen what happens when someone takes em back when they shouldn't. People who have a large breed and already on the limit for numbers they are able to keep via local law who have had to move from where they lived due to a death in the family rotate dogs and only let them outside two at a time so the neighbours cant see how many they have ,where dog shit is up the walls and you stick to the floor ,where we have had to pay extra money to people to help us drag out 7 dead dog bodies from the spare bedroom. Sure some of this is mental illness and hoarding but often it sometimes starts or is exasperated because of the pressure that's on to be seen to be ethical when whats best for the dogs would have been to say id love to help but right now I cant!

the expectation is too high and the punishment you serve out when someone says they cant do what is expected by branding them unethical is unjust. By the way the MDBA offers support for breeders and rescue members who have a dog that is in trouble which they cant take back themselves because we know sometimes there needs to be an alternative and some help which you dont get beaten up over even if you think there shouldn't be.

Thanks Steve for reminding me of the house of horror while i'm eating my breakfast

And a perfect example of why some breeders shouldn't even consider taking their own dogs back!

It was the house of hell alright Jay still says when she thinks of it she can still smell it. Those poor bloody dogs but she looked ethical until we got inside!

[Roova]

I've been reading this thread with interest and it seems to be a common worry for breeders to have dogs return. It shocks me to think it happens so often its a concern for so many, is there a common reason they are returned? Also are the breeders taking dogs back because they want to or have to?

Clearly a breeder going through tough times as Steve mentioned would have no choice but to say no but couldn't they recommend a reputable breed rescue if absolutely necessary?

Surely where a pup is healthy and well bred and the new owners are vetted and educated to make sure they understand the breed it would be pretty uncommon for them to bounce back? If breeders were keeping in contact every now and then to assess how things are going wouldn't they be able to pick up potential issues before they got to the point of the owner not wanting the dog any more?

Do most breeders supply information to new owners on training and raising a healthy well adjusted dog to avoid this situation or hope the average person will do all the right things? If they do, maybe it would be helpful to add information on potential unwanted dog behaviour and the basics on rectifying it. Maybe even recommended behaviourists in the area (assuming puppy buyers live closeish)so they realise they have other avenues if teenage pup starts showing unwanted behaviour. This is a bit random, but maybe even a $100 rebate on puppy if new owners show documentation they've attended dog training so at least you know basics have been taught which should make for a happier long term situation.

In some cases pups are worth many thousands of dollars, it seems a simple thing to do to head off potential issues especially when a lot of info can be simply photocopied for each new owner.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Roova

[JulesP]

I doubt that the majority of the general public would be thinking that they can hand back dogs to the breeder, unless the breeder has stated that in the beginning. There are certainly lots of posts on here about people rehoming dogs via Gumtree and the cry is always - have they told the breeder. People from here have even tried to find the breeder to let them know.

That a breeder will take back any dog in any circumstance is not on my list of criteria btw. It is nice that a breeder will help out someone to rehome a dog if needed. And if one of their pups was in trouble (in pound) I would hope that they would rescue the dog.

[Sandra777]

I state I will take 'my' pups back but I've only had 3 occasions in 34 years where this has been necessary. Oh and two where adult rehomes came back but they were only on trial so not the same thing.

1) 3 year old bitch didn't get on with new boyfriends 'labradoodle'. We actually met said crossbred and it tried to bite three children in the space of 2 minutes while 3 year old Stafford bitch frolicked around and played with the same children. BF was a and the relationship broke up about 6 months after we had rehomed the 3 year old.

2) 18 month old dog "bit my 2 year old". Yes dog did bite child however long story but after dog had been PTS and examined it was determined by the vet that dog had (healed) broken ribs and scrotum had been burnt. Not suggesting 2 year old did this but obviously dog was in a fair amount of pain. Still cry over this boy.

3) 5 month old puppy, owner died. The family knew where the pup had come from and phoned us. They had a family friend who wanted the pup so technically the pup never came back to me but went straight to family friend.

The main reasons I say I will always take 'my' pups back started when Staffords were being stolen/claimed from pounds for dog fighting, then continued when the BYB boom started when anything entire was snaffled up to feed the boom, and now continues because so many perfectly good Staffords are PTS in pounds every day I want to avoid anything I 'made' going this way.

[corvus]

I think this take the dog back thing is a red herring. I think most people don't even realise they can send a dog back to the breeder. They take on a dog and they tend to consider it their responsibility after that. I remember when my mother was having a terrible time with one of her dogs and she was afraid she would have to put him to sleep. I told her to call the breeder (who was ANKC registered). She hadn't even thought of it. She did call the breeder, who did take the dog back and said she would rehome him to somewhere quieter where he wouldn't be so stressed out all the time. I'm still not sure we shouldn't have just had him PTS. He had been assessed by a vet behaviourist and it was suggested he was probably dangerous. Incidentally, there is no way I consider this breeder ethical even though she did take a problem dog back and even replace him with a purebred dog at a discounted price (original dog was from an 'oops' cross breed litter). The dog my family got as a replacement is riddled with health problems practically unheard of in the breed in question, is undersized, has an incorrect coat and colour, and behaves highly unusually for the breed. He is loved all the same, but the promised papers were never seen and there were a lot of suspicious circumstances. The second dog my parents got from an ANKC registered breeder is healthy at least, but has major behavioural problems. All my parents want is physically healthy and mentally stable dogs. They have had more success with this from the pet store than ANKC registered breeders. One can't blame them for not having a great deal of faith in the idea of registered breeders.

[Crisovar]

My puppy buyers were always told that I was always available for advice and help if needed, it was also clearly stated in the information pack they received along with if at any time they could not keep the dog they were to contact me for help etc. The majority of Breeders I know do the same.

If a puppy buyer chooses not to contact the Breeder or refuses help then the ball is firmly in their court. Some of the reasons I have heard for dogs not being offered back or returned are lame, and if the animals involved are lumped in with the Breeder didn't give a toss figures it is pretty inaccurate.

I am not at sure what it is exactly some people want or expect. It does seem that many expect Breeders to go all out and invest a great deal of resources (emotional, physical and financial) and then walk away, whilst others expect that input to be ongoing and to cover any hiccup that may occur regardless of where the blame may lay. The ones who are happy for the Breeder to do their best then hand them that pup with good wishes and good intentions but also with the expectation that some of the outcome is now up to the buyer as well are not as common. Where is the balance?

Selling a pup from a litter that you have poured so much into means you are trusting the buyer to to do their best too, for it to work you need 3 things a good start, a good home, and the goodwill of mother nature, because it is a living creature and things can go wrong. If everything goes according to plan it is all good, when things go wrong then we need balanced expectations from both sides.

[JulesP]

My puppy buyers were always told that I was always available for advice and help if needed, it was also clearly stated in the information pack they received along with if at any time they could not keep the dog they were to contact me for help etc. The majority of Breeders I know do the same.

If a puppy buyer chooses not to contact the Breeder or refuses help then the ball is firmly in their court. Some of the reasons I have heard for dogs not being offered back or returned are lame, and if the animals involved are lumped in with the Breeder didn't give a toss figures it is pretty inaccurate.

I am not at sure what it is exactly some people want or expect. It does seem that many expect Breeders to go all out and invest a great deal of resources (emotional, physical and financial) and then walk away, whilst others expect that input to be ongoing and to cover any hiccup that may occur regardless of where the blame may lay. The ones who are happy for the Breeder to do their best then hand them that pup with good wishes and good intentions but also with the expectation that some of the outcome is now up to the buyer as well are not as common. Where is the balance?

Selling a pup from a litter that you have poured so much into means you are trusting the buyer to to do their best too, for it to work you need 3 things a good start, a good home, and the goodwill of mother nature, because it is a living creature and things can go wrong. If everything goes according to plan it is all good, when things go wrong then we need balanced expectations from both sides.

Most of the 'extra' things on my list have more to do with how the breeder keeps their dogs and what they do with them. Not what happens when I get the puppy.

I was very upset with my breeders lack of care factor when my young dog got sick. I had at this stage got 3 dogs from her and helped her rehome a couple. I thought the relationship was a bit beyond breeder/owner. We had fairly regular contact for a number of years (5+). I think this reflects on her as a person though rather than her as a breeder. I didn't even call the breeder of my young cat I just lost as I had no relationship with them at all.

[Guest donatella]

I don't think you should sell a living animal like you do a car. WAS $1500 NOW $1200 must go before christmas. Why must it go before christmas?

if you are going to quote someone's ad, best to get it right as it is easy to identify the breeder. The ad actually says

WAS $1500 now $1200 to find her a home before Christmas.

Nothing about "must go before Christmas". It is understandable that the price is reduced as the pup grows older, and I am guessing the breeder maybe wants to get the pup settled in a new home prior to the silly season. Makes sense to me. Cant see anything cheesy or disturbing or sad at all

A Reg breeder should know better then to buy into the 'puppy for christmas' jig, but that's just my opinion.

[JulesP]

I don't think you should sell a living animal like you do a car. WAS $1500 NOW $1200 must go before christmas. Why must it go before christmas?

if you are going to quote someone's ad, best to get it right as it is easy to identify the breeder. The ad actually says

WAS $1500 now $1200 to find her a home before Christmas.

Nothing about "must go before Christmas". It is understandable that the price is reduced as the pup grows older, and I am guessing the breeder maybe wants to get the pup settled in a new home prior to the silly season. Makes sense to me. Cant see anything cheesy or disturbing or sad at all

A Reg breeder should know better then to buy into the 'puppy for christmas' jig, but that's just my opinion.

It say 'before' Christmas not 'for' Christmas. The breeder could be going away or something.

[Guest donatella]

But why reduce the price? Surely you want the best home not the best time at a bargain price.

Anyway that's just my opinion, everyone is going to feel differently for obvious reasons.

[Dame Aussie]

I think it has to do with the age of the puppy. Could be wrong though but I have seen breeders reduce the price as the pup gets older as interest wains somewhat (a lot of people want the youngest puppy they can get).

I don't have a problem with it if it gets the dog a good home.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I suspect the reason many people don't go back to the breeder is because that often means an uncomfortable conversation where the breeder may offer suggestions about adjustments they can make to keep the dog. In my experience once someone has decided they want to be rid of the dog they want to do it as expeditiously as possible.

[The Spotted Devil]

I suspect the reason many people don't go back to the breeder is because that often means an uncomfortable conversation where the breeder may offer suggestions about adjustments they can make to keep the dog. In my experience once someone has decided they want to be rid of the dog they want to do it as expeditiously as possible.

SSM, there was an interesting paper on this. The authors conducted extensive interviews with people relinquishing their pets to an animal shelter. Your experience (my bold) is similar to what they found - however, it turns out there had been extensive procrastination (at least months) prior to suddenly wanting to be rid of the animal straight away. It was a difficult paper to read without some level of subjectivity (and fist shaking!) but it was a very interesting insight. In particular, the way people only "heard" what they wanted to hear from the shelter staff - even with serious issues such as aggression (and biting the owner!) they convinced themselves that the shelter would find a home for the dog.