People's Prejudice Against Dog Breeders.

[Steve]

And as a breeder who is trying to find the best homes for their puppies where no matter what the person taking it will love it and look after it until it dies why would we want our puppies to go to someone who wants to know if we will take it back if they dont want it anymore? Surely from the other side of the fence the breeder might see this as a potential symptom of the dog becoming homeless and if they are only interested in finding forever home they are being remiss by allowing the pup to go home with someone who can envisage in the future that they dont want it any more.?

Ethics for finding only the best forever homes or ethics for saying they will take it back - hard to win.

[Sheridan]

You mean if they don't say they will take the dog back when you are shopping you don't stay around but if they are honest they would answer they will take the dog back if they can because no one can anticipate what situation they may be in tomorrow let alone next year or so. Would you prefer someone to be honest with you or tell you what you want to hear to make a sale? Would you prefer someone to take the dog back to look after their reputation and then turn up next month on TT because they have too many dogs which they haven't been able to cope with?

I would expect that they will say they will take a dog back and that if they can't immediately take the dog, that they have a plan in place. You can come up with as many scenarios as you like, Steve, but there's nothing like a bit of planning.

And ETA: why is it just an 'I don't want the dog anymore' scenario? There are plenty of legitimate reasons for needing to rehome.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Sheridan

[Steve]

There are Poms advertised on DOL right now with the words WAS $x amount NOW $x amount

like they are some christmas bargain. To me that is a turn off and not a very good sign at all :

Well then if this is something which has bought the breeder's ethics into question perhaps we can also begin to see why they might sell them off to a pet shop, or a dealer or pop them in a bucket . If they aren't selling at the usual price is there really anything wrong with a breeder advertising they want them sold asap and reducing the price? They are still being responsible for them , they are still checking out homes.

There isnt anything in the code of ethics to say you cant reduce your price if the pups arent in as higher demand as you thought they were.

[Guest donatella]

There are Poms advertised on DOL right now with the words WAS $x amount NOW $x amount

like they are some christmas bargain. To me that is a turn off and not a very good sign at all :

Well then if this is something which has bought the breeder's ethics into question perhaps we can also begin to see why they might sell them off to a pet shop, or a dealer or pop them in a bucket . If they aren't selling at the usual price is there really anything wrong with a breeder advertising they want them sold asap and reducing the price? They are still being responsible for them , they are still checking out homes.

There isnt anything in the code of ethics to say you cant reduce your price if the pups arent in as higher demand as you thought they were.

I don't think you should sell a living animal like you do a car. WAS $1500 NOW $1200 must go before christmas. Why must it go before christmas? Surely it must go to the right home and surely if you do reduce the price you do it off your own back you don't need to make a big song and dance about it like you're at some action. I truly find that disturbing. These are living creatures, not assets sold off to the lowest bidder by christmas time.

[Steve]

You mean if they don't say they will take the dog back when you are shopping you don't stay around but if they are honest they would answer they will take the dog back if they can because no one can anticipate what situation they may be in tomorrow let alone next year or so. Would you prefer someone to be honest with you or tell you what you want to hear to make a sale? Would you prefer someone to take the dog back to look after their reputation and then turn up next month on TT because they have too many dogs which they haven't been able to cope with?

I would expect that they will say they will take a dog back and that if they can't immediately take the dog, that they have a plan in place. You can come up with as many scenarios as you like, Steve, but there's nothing like a bit of planning.

And ETA: why is it just an 'I don't want the dog anymore' scenario? There are plenty of legitimate reasons for needing to rehome.

Definitely just as there are many legitimate reasons why a breeder may not be able to or should not take the dog back when its needed by the buyer.

Come on Sheridan you're a smart kid you know you cant plan for everything. Pacers helped several breeders who were in way over their heads who needed to find homes for their own dogs because they couldn't have anticipated where they are at now - how could you ask them to do what you expect of them when they are not functioning as they were when they bred the dogs and when taking on the responsibility is not in the best interests of the dogs or the people.

If we are to be honest we will say we will bring them home if we can and that we will help if we can but thats not likely to happen because that would mean being seen to be unethical. When they do turn up we will put everything at risk to be seen to do what some believe is the right thing because if we dont we will be seen to be unethical

[Dame Aussie]

All I want is a breeder who breeds healthy dogs with solid temperaments, knows their stuff and can offer me support. I want a happy puppy who has been socialized as much as possible before I get it.

I don't mind puppies being raised outside. What is important is the contact they have had and that they have been well cared for.

I don't necessarily expect a breeder to take back every dog they have bred as I believe the buyer has taken over the responsibility. To me a good breeder is one that will take back or rehome what they can, but I understand this is not always possible and I don't judge breeders on that.

I also understand any live being doesn't come with a warranty and even with the most rigorous health testing things can, and will go wrong.

I would hope what I've outlined above would be fairly representative of the general dog owner/fancier, I have one pedigree dog and one rescue mix, I do not show or breed my dogs so I'm pretty general :laugh:

Is anything I've outlined out of line or expecting too much?

Edited December 4, 2012 by Aussie3

[Steve]

There are Poms advertised on DOL right now with the words WAS $x amount NOW $x amount

like they are some christmas bargain. To me that is a turn off and not a very good sign at all :

Well then if this is something which has bought the breeder's ethics into question perhaps we can also begin to see why they might sell them off to a pet shop, or a dealer or pop them in a bucket . If they aren't selling at the usual price is there really anything wrong with a breeder advertising they want them sold asap and reducing the price? They are still being responsible for them , they are still checking out homes.

There isnt anything in the code of ethics to say you cant reduce your price if the pups arent in as higher demand as you thought they were.

I don't think you should sell a living animal like you do a car. WAS $1500 NOW $1200 must go before christmas. Why must it go before christmas? Surely it must go to the right home and surely if you do reduce the price you do it off your own back you don't need to make a big song and dance about it like you're at some action. I truly find that disturbing. These are living creatures, not assets sold off to the lowest bidder by christmas time.

Rubbish. Just because someone reduces the price doesn't mean they are not doing everything else they need to and there are a multitude of reasons why someone would need to have them sold by a certain time frame. No one is bidding on them - that would be unethical.

[Steve]

All I want is a breeder who breeds healthy dogs with solid temperaments, knows their stuff and can offer me support. I want a happy puppy who has been socialized as much as possible before I get it.

I don't mind puppies being raised outside. What is important is the contact they have had and that they have been well cared for.

I don't necessarily expect a breeder to take back every dog they have bred as I believe the buyer has taken over the responsibility. To me a good breeder is one that will take back or rehome what they can, but I understand this is not always possible and I don't judge breeders on that.

I also understand any live being doesn't come with a warranty and even with the most rigorous health testing things can, and will go wrong.

I would hope what I've outlined above would be fairly representative of the general dog owner/fancier, I have one pedigree dog and one rescue mix, I do not show or breed my dogs so I'm pretty general :laugh:

Is anything I've outlined out of line or expecting too much?

That sounds pretty good to me.

[Guest donatella]

I think that sort of marketing is cheesey and no ethical breeder I know would need to even think about using that technique in fact I find it really sad they need to resort to that like their puppies have an expiry date on them.

[Rebanne]

You mean if they don't say they will take the dog back when you are shopping you don't stay around but if they are honest they would answer they will take the dog back if they can because no one can anticipate what situation they may be in tomorrow let alone next year or so. Would you prefer someone to be honest with you or tell you what you want to hear to make a sale? Would you prefer someone to take the dog back to look after their reputation and then turn up next month on TT because they have too many dogs which they haven't been able to cope with?

I would expect that they will say they will take a dog back and that if they can't immediately take the dog, that they have a plan in place. You can come up with as many scenarios as you like, Steve, but there's nothing like a bit of planning.

And ETA: why is it just an 'I don't want the dog anymore' scenario? There are plenty of legitimate reasons for needing to rehome.

and there are plenty of legitimate reasons why a breeder would not take back into their own home a dog they bred. I would not take back any dog I bred unless they were cat safe. My cat is important to me too.

[Rebanne]

All I want is a breeder who breeds healthy dogs with solid temperaments, knows their stuff and can offer me support. I want a happy puppy who has been socialized as much as possible before I get it.

I don't mind puppies being raised outside. What is important is the contact they have had and that they have been well cared for.

I don't necessarily expect a breeder to take back every dog they have bred as I believe the buyer has taken over the responsibility. To me a good breeder is one that will take back or rehome what they can, but I understand this is not always possible and I don't judge breeders on that.

I also understand any live being doesn't come with a warranty and even with the most rigorous health testing things can, and will go wrong.

I would hope what I've outlined above would be fairly representative of the general dog owner/fancier, I have one pedigree dog and one rescue mix, I do not show or breed my dogs so I'm pretty general :laugh:

Is anything I've outlined out of line or expecting too much?

a very sensible approach

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Also agree with Aussie3, like the adopt don't shop BS the focus on breeders alone misses the responsibility of owners.

[Steve]

I think that sort of marketing is cheesey and no ethical breeder I know would need to even think about using that technique in fact I find it really sad they need to resort to that like their puppies have an expiry date on them.

And the fact that you and many others need to judge without knowing the breeder or the reasons and bang a drum about bad breeders who advertise here or there or somehow that someone might not approve of with the tags of being unethical so you cant judge them and they dont want to be treated and seen this way will consider bumping their puppies off or selling them without papers to a pet shop or dealer or dump them - anything to remain anon and be seen to be ethical though more likely and more common is they just simply stop breeding because its not worth the crap.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Steve

[Simply Grand]

I feel exactly like you Aussie And SSM. I chose to get my pets, they are part of my family now and are my responsibility.

I don't expect my breeders to be laying down the law on what I do with my dogs (feeding, training, even desexing) once they are home so I can't have it both ways and expect them to take the dogs back just because I need or want them to.

Of course it would be nice if they wanted to and were able, as they would obviously know the dog and the breed, and I would talk to them before I rehomed the dogs elsewhere and would appreciate assistance from them, but it would

still be my ultimate responsibility to find the best home, not the breeders'.

ETA - Aussie, I also totally agree with your other criteria for choosing a breeder. My three were bred and raised in three quite different environments, by 1. A byb 2. A very experienced showie and reg breeder and 3. A brand new reg breeder, with support from the sire's more experienced owner. 1 lived in a family household with mum and litter mates and interacted with another female and her slightly older litter, lots of interaction with people esp kids until they

went to their homes. 2 litter was raised in the house with older breeder and her OH, mum went back to live in the kennel setup once pups were weaned, pups stayed inside together, I don't think they had a whole lot of socialization outside the breeder's family and dogs. 3 lived outside in a

small kennel/pen setup, with mum until they went to their homes, let out to run the yard every day, socialized with some people but not kids.

I was happy with all three breeders, I'm very happy with all three dogs. What they all had in common was that they love and treat their dogs well, I was able to meet either both parents or at least mum and their other older dogs, I

went to all of their houses and could see where the pups lived and that the pups and the older dogs were happy and confident in the environment and around the breeder, and were unphased about me coming in as a stranger, indicating to me that they had not been mistreated.

Unfortunately I didn't know about health testing with 1, and to be honest I didn't get health test results with 2, I trusted

that given the breeder has been around and successful in showing and sports for so long they would know what they were doing, yes naive but no problems so far. 3 I got copies of all the health tests for dam and sire.

So anyway my point is, for me there are not really specific individual things that I could list as what I want from a breeder, other than happy, healthy, well temperamented dogs and puppies, willingness to communicate with me and willingness to let me see how their dogs and puppies live (I know their could be genuine circumstances where a breeder wouldn't want to do that but it would be a deal breaker for me, just in case...)

Edited December 4, 2012 by Simply Grand

[Crisovar]

All I want is a breeder who breeds healthy dogs with solid temperaments, knows their stuff and can offer me support. I want a happy puppy who has been socialized as much as possible before I get it.

I don't mind puppies being raised outside. What is important is the contact they have had and that they have been well cared for.

I don't necessarily expect a breeder to take back every dog they have bred as I believe the buyer has taken over the responsibility. To me a good breeder is one that will take back or rehome what they can, but I understand this is not always possible and I don't judge breeders on that.

I also understand any live being doesn't come with a warranty and even with the most rigorous health testing things can, and will go wrong.

I would hope what I've outlined above would be fairly representative of the general dog owner/fancier, I have one pedigree dog and one rescue mix, I do not show or breed my dogs so I'm pretty general :laugh:

Is anything I've outlined out of line or expecting too much?

Can we clone you :)

[oakway]

All I want is a breeder who breeds healthy dogs with solid temperaments, knows their stuff and can offer me support. I want a happy puppy who has been socialized as much as possible before I get it.

I don't mind puppies being raised outside. What is important is the contact they have had and that they have been well cared for.

I don't necessarily expect a breeder to take back every dog they have bred as I believe the buyer has taken over the responsibility. To me a good breeder is one that will take back or rehome what they can, but I understand this is not always possible and I don't judge breeders on that.

I also understand any live being doesn't come with a warranty and even with the most rigorous health testing things can, and will go wrong.

I would hope what I've outlined above would be fairly representative of the general dog owner/fancier, I have one pedigree dog and one rescue mix, I do not show or breed my dogs so I'm pretty general :laugh:

Is anything I've outlined out of line or expecting too much?

I wish "most" purchasers were as sane as you.

[Guest crickets]

I blame the controlling bodies for not investigating complaints and not kicking out breeders who don't stick to their code of conduct

I too wish more was done to expel ANKC registered breeders who breed & behave outside of the code of ethics

A few points that jump out at me are

....... under ETHICS

10. A member shall not dispose of dogs owned or bred by the member to a pound or animal

refuge

It seems many examples of this practice are known of amongst ANKC registered breeders.

.......under BREEDING

11. A member shall breed primarily for the purpose of improving the quality and / or working

ability of the breed in accordance with the breed standard, and not specifically for the pet or

commercial market.

Why every single month can I open my journal to find several litters of the same breed from the same kennel (this month 8 litters(61 puppies) from this kennel, 3 sired by 1 dog, 3 sired by another dog, and 2 other sires for the other 2 litters, every single dog displaying the same prefix, that of the kennel, and not a single title among them) .......this month in month out. How is this not breeding specifically for the pet/commercial market? ANKC Registered wholesale dog breeders is what they are, and they are not an isolated case. Why are they not pulled up on this clause?

21. A breeder shall be expected to maintain reasonable contact with the purchasers of dogs from

that breeder and to offer continued advice and reasonable assistance.

How often do we see on this forum that 'breeders' disappear into thin air the second the puppies owner seeks advice or support.

........under GENERAL

26. A member shall not:

.1 Sell or dispose of a dog to a commercial pet wholesaler or retail pet shop unless they

are accredited by the Pet Industry Association of Australia Limited (PIAA).

Wonderful! So ANKC breeders CAN dispose of dogs to a commercial seller.....as long as the commercial seller is a PIAA member. I despair on this point

[Florise]

I don't think you should sell a living animal like you do a car. WAS $1500 NOW $1200 must go before christmas. Why must it go before christmas?

if you are going to quote someone's ad, best to get it right as it is easy to identify the breeder. The ad actually says

WAS $1500 now $1200 to find her a home before Christmas.

Nothing about "must go before Christmas". It is understandable that the price is reduced as the pup grows older, and I am guessing the breeder maybe wants to get the pup settled in a new home prior to the silly season. Makes sense to me. Cant see anything cheesy or disturbing or sad at all Edited December 4, 2012 by KaseyC

[Steve]

.1 Sell or dispose of a dog to a commercial pet wholesaler or retail pet shop unless they

are accredited by the Pet Industry Association of Australia Limited (PIAA).

Wonderful! So ANKC breeders CAN dispose of dogs to a commercial seller.....as long as the commercial seller is a PIAA member. I despair on this point

Bit slow this has been the case for about 20 years now - Its how hundreds a month go out via transpet to a pet shop in Hawaii, its why pet shop people are telling us that most of their puppies come from registered breeders , its why Dogs NSW backed PIAA against Clover Moore's bill.

[WExtremeG]

All I want is a breeder who breeds healthy dogs with solid temperaments, knows their stuff and can offer me support. I want a happy puppy who has been socialized as much as possible before I get it.

I don't mind puppies being raised outside. What is important is the contact they have had and that they have been well cared for.

I don't necessarily expect a breeder to take back every dog they have bred as I believe the buyer has taken over the responsibility. To me a good breeder is one that will take back or rehome what they can, but I understand this is not always possible and I don't judge breeders on that.

I also understand any live being doesn't come with a warranty and even with the most rigorous health testing things can, and will go wrong.

I would hope what I've outlined above would be fairly representative of the general dog owner/fancier, I have one pedigree dog and one rescue mix, I do not show or breed my dogs so I'm pretty general :laugh:

Is anything I've outlined out of line or expecting too much?

This is how I see it too- but I'd have added in health testing (not sure if that's what you meant by healthy) :)