People's Prejudice Against Dog Breeders.

[Shazzapug]

I got a breed prefix the other day - How? Simply by filling in a form, picking 8 names and paying my money it couldn't have been any simpler

You obviously dont live in victoria...why cant it be a national requirement to do the written open book exam?

[Steve]

There are many sorts of 'bad' breeders. Some of them may be in it for the money, some are ignorant, some may be reformed by codes and policing. But I've noticed that some of the cases that hit the news are of a different sort.

In the years i spent living in a WA kennel zone, I came to know a couple of breeders who had low standards of dog care. I mean basic things were wrong. Poor grooming of coated breeds, filthy kennels, no regular exercise, etc. The two individuals I'm thinking of we're both ardent showies and quite knowledgable about both breed standards and dog health. At some point in their lives, i think both were excellent breeders. But their lives went downhill. Relationships, health, money, booze .... the usual stresses that cause lives to crumble. Both ended up getting rid of all but one or two dogs and got out of breeding. If either had been busted during their period of decline, they could have become ugly news stories.

It is sad that when people's lives fall apart, their animals often go down with them. Sometimes personal intervention, peer pressure, and sympathy may be more effective than the heavy hand.

Whats even more sad is that when the goons hear that someone may be in trouble instead of doing what would be best for the dogs and knocking on the front door and offering some help they keep it a secret and sneak around waiting to get some horrendous evidence to go after sensationalism and donations.

[Steve]

I got a breed prefix the other day - How? Simply by filling in a form, picking 8 names and paying my money it couldn't have been any simpler

You obviously dont live in victoria...why cant it be a national requirement to do the written open book exam?

Well its not much more difficult in Victoria either. You dont need to own a dog let alone a purebred dog to get in and you can breed cross bred and unregistered purebreds and stay in without a problem - open book exam is going to tell them a lot about you.

[Crisovar]

For a Breeder to be able to instantly take back any dog that is in need, they most probably are going to need kennel facilities, then most likely the dog wont be sent back because as we read time and time again the owners don't want them going into a kennel situation, so they are better off going to rescue to add to the burdens there and also fueling the Breeders don't look after their own train of thought. If I was raising a litter of pups in the house underfoot, because that is "the best way" then I am no doubt then in strife with the powers that be because pups must whelped in kennels, but I also couldn't add a strange dog to the household mix because of the risks. What to do?? Breeding dogs is getting more and more like one of those crazy time management games.

[Shazzapug]

I got a breed prefix the other day - How? Simply by filling in a form, picking 8 names and paying my money it couldn't have been any simpler

You obviously dont live in victoria...why cant it be a national requirement to do the written open book exam?

Well its not much more difficult in Victoria either. You dont need to own a dog let alone a purebred dog to get in and you can breed cross bred and unregistered purebreds and stay in without a problem - open book exam is going to tell them a lot about you.

Having known of someone that has just had to do the exam to apply for a prefix in victoria it at least made her have to read and be able to retain knowledge in her brain long enough to be able to tick the right answer box....how can that NOT be better than no exam at all?

[Shazzapug]

For a Breeder to be able to instantly take back any dog that is in need, they most probably are going to need kennel facilities, then most likely the dog wont be sent back because as we read time and time again the owners don't want them going into a kennel situation, so they are better off going to rescue to add to the burdens there and also fueling the Breeders don't look after their own train of thought. If I was raising a litter of pups in the house underfoot, because that is "the best way" then I am no doubt then in strife with the powers that be because pups must whelped in kennels, but I also couldn't add a strange dog to the household mix because of the risks. What to do?? Breeding dogs is getting more and more like one of those crazy time management games.

Breeders and breeders that rescue should have without a doubt a quarantine area. So should be able to take back or take in a dog at anytime. Yes?

[Crisovar]

Having the facilities to take in a dog and the owner of the dog wanting the dog put in those facilities well that's another story and the point of my post :) I have always had facilities available unless they were already filled by a rescue. In which case there may be a delay taking in another dog. :)

[Jed]

Steve

I have been witness to deals breeders made with a dealer to take away the pups they didnt want to keep themselves to be sold via a pet shop chain - why ? they told me it was because its too hard to have to comply with all of the things expected of them to sell the pup - one said she was frightened of strangers coming to her home .They both said that if they advertised the pup their fellow breeders and loonies would judge them as unethical and they didnt want to drown them at 8 weeks which is when they made a decision on which one to keep. The dealer tells me this is common in the area which they operate in. Im not even going to get near what I think of this personally but its about what some breeders will do when no one is watching to appear to be ethical and unless like me you witnessed it - how would you know? I reported that and nothing was done - no evidence the puppies ever existed.

By the way I didnt say that these people were registered it could have been any breeder - my point is how much does this expectation of what is ethical impact on the results and how some breeders play to look ethical?

I have never seen or heard of any specific breeder/person doing this. Thank dog.

Natsu Chan

I hear people say breeders dogs shouldn't be kennelled, but in the same breathe they are told they must maintain a wide gene pool. They must rescue if they breed and they must take back dogs they have bred no matter what, no matter where. Where does this leave people? To be ethical it seems means constantly being squeesed between a rock and a tight place. No wonder the numbers are dropping off. It isn't enough anymore to breed good natured, healthy, well raised dogs.

People need to stand up and say you are asking too much, we can't do everything but they are all to scared of being condemed if they do. I don't know what the answer is really.

The answer, Natsu Chan is to be true to yourself and your breeding principles. The only people who matter are my dogs, me and my buyers. If people have expectations which I think are unrealistic, there is no pup for them.

Tell no lies, do not describe pet quality as show quality, deliver what you promise, every single time. Behave always in a fair and ethical way.

A would be buyer contacted me and asked if the cavalier pups were health tested for MVD, SM, LP, HD, Curly Coat and EFD, and for SM.

Tests for CC and EFD are done by swab in England. I've never had a dog with either thing, so I don't test. I test hearts, LP, but not HD - not enough of it in the breed to be a problem. The tests for SM give no surety that the pups will not have it and cost about $1500 a time, so I see no point in that. As far as I can see, all the tests are doing is providing a map for future investigations.

Additionally, the buyer didn't know that the pups were not tested for any of the above, the parents were. There is a limit to the extent I will go to, so I simply told her I didn;t do all those tests and send her to one of the 4 people in Aus who advertise they test for SM.

My experience is that you can only do the best you can. And IMHO, there are buyers out there who understand and appreciate that.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Jed

[Jed]

For a Breeder to be able to instantly take back any dog that is in need, they most probably are going to need kennel facilities, then most likely the dog wont be sent back because as we read time and time again the owners don't want them going into a kennel situation, so they are better off going to rescue to add to the burdens there and also fueling the Breeders don't look after their own train of thought. If I was raising a litter of pups in the house underfoot, because that is "the best way" then I am no doubt then in strife with the powers that be because pups must whelped in kennels, but I also couldn't add a strange dog to the household mix because of the risks. What to do?? Breeding dogs is getting more and more like one of those crazy time management games.

Breeders and breeders that rescue should have without a doubt a quarantine area. So should be able to take back or take in a dog at anytime. Yes?

But that pre-supposes that breeders will have kennels so they can provide a quarantine area, does it not?

[Shazzapug]

For a Breeder to be able to instantly take back any dog that is in need, they most probably are going to need kennel facilities, then most likely the dog wont be sent back because as we read time and time again the owners don't want them going into a kennel situation, so they are better off going to rescue to add to the burdens there and also fueling the Breeders don't look after their own train of thought. If I was raising a litter of pups in the house underfoot, because that is "the best way" then I am no doubt then in strife with the powers that be because pups must whelped in kennels, but I also couldn't add a strange dog to the household mix because of the risks. What to do?? Breeding dogs is getting more and more like one of those crazy time management games.

Breeders and breeders that rescue should have without a doubt a quarantine area. So should be able to take back or take in a dog at anytime. Yes?

But that pre-supposes that breeders will have kennels so they can provide a quarantine area, does it not?

A quarantine area doesnt pre-suppose anything....I dont have kennels but I do have a quarantine area....albeit a cubby within a fenced run. :)

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I think there is some excuse making in this thread. Perhaps if instead of saying 'take back' we said 'take responsibility for?' I agree that sometimes they can't come back into the breeders premises right that instant but a breeder can negotiate for the dog to be directly rehomed to another home, kennelled or taken by someone else in their network until a home is found. Certainly the breeder should be doing the 'stop them bouncing' work that our breed rescue often does by providing advice about how to manage things so the person can keep the dog. Yes other breeders apply stupid standards sometimes as a form of harassment but also I see people not really making an effort.

[Jed]

For a Breeder to be able to instantly take back any dog that is in need, they most probably are going to need kennel facilities, then most likely the dog wont be sent back because as we read time and time again the owners don't want them going into a kennel situation, so they are better off going to rescue to add to the burdens there and also fueling the Breeders don't look after their own train of thought. If I was raising a litter of pups in the house underfoot, because that is "the best way" then I am no doubt then in strife with the powers that be because pups must whelped in kennels, but I also couldn't add a strange dog to the household mix because of the risks. What to do?? Breeding dogs is getting more and more like one of those crazy time management games.

Breeders and breeders that rescue should have without a doubt a quarantine area. So should be able to take back or take in a dog at anytime. Yes?

But that pre-supposes that breeders will have kennels so they can provide a quarantine area, does it not?

A quarantine area doesnt pre-suppose anything....I dont have kennels but I do have a quarantine area....albeit a cubby within a fenced run. :)

But that is a kennel, is it not?

[Crisovar]

I have never refused to assist one of mine, not that it has happened more than a couple of times, I have had to race to collect other Breeders dogs because the owners want them gone yesterday. I asked a person surrendering a dog only a couple of weeks ago if they had contacted the Breeder before signing it over to the pound, they said why, If the Breeder wanted it they wouldn't have sold it! This dog came complete with an information pack that looked pristine and unread, surely an uncaring Breeder. Needless to say dog was quickly on its way to a friend of the interstate Breeder. Sometimes the Breeders don't even get the chance to step up. For every one that wipes their hands at point of sale there are plenty who certainly don't, sadly however I think it has got to a point that some Breeders really cannot work out what the rest of society including other Breeders actually expect of them.

[Jed]

I don't see any expectations on byb or puppy farmers to take back dogs they bred.

Why is this expectation on registered dogs only?

Reg dogs usually cost more than BYB and less than puppy farms, yet the expectations are are higher than both.

And as Crisovar says, some buyers wont contact the breeder.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Jed

[Crisovar]

I groomed a pup the other week that was purchased from a byb who supplys the local petshop with litter leftovers twice a year. These people I have known for some time told me they wanted a pup of XYZ breed, I gave them details of some Breeders who would do the right thing by them. They went off and googled and decided that it seems a pup raised in a family home where they could see both parents and raised with children (unholy terrors) was the go. Great you say. They didn't want a pup that grew up in a Breeders kennel environment. So they buy a pup for not much less than a pup from one of the Breeders on my list would have cost them. They have a pup that was wormed once, raised on weetbix and canned slop, not vaccinated or chipped or groomed. Now they have a pup that is costing them more money than they ever thought, and I saw on the weekend it is on the local FB pets classifieds for sale, main reason being apparently that it cannot be contained without screaming the house down and it plays so rough with their children one is now frightened of it. I asked them if they tried returning it and they said the lady told them to take it to the petshop as all the others sold quickly. They are blaming the Breed for the problems. Their experience could have been so very different but they believed stories on the net about how to choose a Breeder.

[Shazzapug]

For a Breeder to be able to instantly take back any dog that is in need, they most probably are going to need kennel facilities, then most likely the dog wont be sent back because as we read time and time again the owners don't want them going into a kennel situation, so they are better off going to rescue to add to the burdens there and also fueling the Breeders don't look after their own train of thought. If I was raising a litter of pups in the house underfoot, because that is "the best way" then I am no doubt then in strife with the powers that be because pups must whelped in kennels, but I also couldn't add a strange dog to the household mix because of the risks. What to do?? Breeding dogs is getting more and more like one of those crazy time management games.

Breeders and breeders that rescue should have without a doubt a quarantine area. So should be able to take back or take in a dog at anytime. Yes?

But that pre-supposes that breeders will have kennels so they can provide a quarantine area, does it not?

A quarantine area doesnt pre-suppose anything....I dont have kennels but I do have a quarantine area....albeit a cubby within a fenced run. :)

But that is a kennel, is it not?

Quarantine.... A state, period, or place of isolation in which people or animals are placed.....isolation. I give up :)

[Steve]

For a Breeder to be able to instantly take back any dog that is in need, they most probably are going to need kennel facilities, then most likely the dog wont be sent back because as we read time and time again the owners don't want them going into a kennel situation, so they are better off going to rescue to add to the burdens there and also fueling the Breeders don't look after their own train of thought. If I was raising a litter of pups in the house underfoot, because that is "the best way" then I am no doubt then in strife with the powers that be because pups must whelped in kennels, but I also couldn't add a strange dog to the household mix because of the risks. What to do?? Breeding dogs is getting more and more like one of those crazy time management games.

Breeders and breeders that rescue should have without a doubt a quarantine area. So should be able to take back or take in a dog at anytime. Yes?

But that pre-supposes that breeders will have kennels so they can provide a quarantine area, does it not?

A quarantine area doesnt pre-suppose anything....I dont have kennels but I do have a quarantine area....albeit a cubby within a fenced run. :)

But that is a kennel, is it not?

Quarantine.... A state, period, or place of isolation in which people or animals are placed.....isolation. I give up :)

You miss the point - sometimes things change, sometimes things happen sometimes the cubby house is all full sometimes the breed is a bigger management issue ,sometimes you have run out of money to be able to feed it and vet it ,sometimes its either the rescue dog or your spouse,sometimes you are not well and you have enough on your plate . The point is ideally we would all take the dog back ,ideally we would all take responsibility but sometimes we shouldn't and we should respect each other enough to accept that each of us will make the best decisions we can at the time rather than beating the hell out of someone because they cant .

[Sheridan]

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For a Breeder to be able to instantly take back any dog that is in need, they most probably are going to need kennel facilities, then most likely the dog wont be sent back because as we read time and time again the owners don't want them going into a kennel situation, so they are better off going to rescue to add to the burdens there and also fueling the Breeders don't look after their own train of thought. If I was raising a litter of pups in the house underfoot, because that is "the best way" then I am no doubt then in strife with the powers that be because pups must whelped in kennels, but I also couldn't add a strange dog to the household mix because of the risks. What to do?? Breeding dogs is getting more and more like one of those crazy time management games.

Breeders and breeders that rescue should have without a doubt a quarantine area. So should be able to take back or take in a dog at anytime. Yes?

But that pre-supposes that breeders will have kennels so they can provide a quarantine area, does it not?

A quarantine area doesnt pre-suppose anything....I dont have kennels but I do have a quarantine area....albeit a cubby within a fenced run. :)

But that is a kennel, is it not?

Quarantine.... A state, period, or place of isolation in which people or animals are placed.....isolation. I give up :)

You miss the point - sometimes things change, sometimes things happen sometimes the cubby house is all full sometimes the breed is a bigger management issue ,sometimes you have run out of money to be able to feed it and vet it ,sometimes its either the rescue dog or your spouse,sometimes you are not well and you have enough on your plate . The point is ideally we would all take the dog back ,ideally we would all take responsibility but sometimes we shouldn't and we should respect each other enough to accept that each of us will make the best decisions we can at the time rather than beating the hell out of someone because they cant .

And that is one of my add-ons. If you can't take a dog back, then see you later.

[Steve]

You mean if they don't say they will take the dog back when you are shopping you don't stay around but if they are honest they would answer they will take the dog back if they can because no one can anticipate what situation they may be in tomorrow let alone next year or so. Would you prefer someone to be honest with you or tell you what you want to hear to make a sale? Would you prefer someone to take the dog back to look after their reputation and then turn up next month on TT because they have too many dogs which they haven't been able to cope with?

[Guest donatella]

There are Poms advertised on DOL right now with the words WAS $x amount NOW $x amount

like they are some christmas bargain. To me that is a turn off and not a very good sign at all :