People's Prejudice Against Dog Breeders.

[oakway]

I honestly believe while we have a fanatical element in the comunity we will always have this problem.

It will not matter what we do we will always have fingers pointed at us because every person has their own idea as to how a dog should be kept.

Remember Tricky Woo from Dr. Herriot, was this dog any better off then the dogs that were kept on the farms ???.

While we have an element that elevate dogs above the status of people we shall get no where.

While we have an element that believe every kennel should look like your lounge room or bedroom we will have a problem.

While we have an element that believe that a dog/s should always be outside we will have a problem.

I just think that no matter what we do we will always have somebody that believes that they know better. (I am talking about the persons here that DON'T know but think they do!!!!).

[Steve]

I have my own list of what I consider to be ethical and what I expect from a breeder. I don't expect my list to be the same as other people's list.

Yes. I think that it's a very subjective thing, everyone will have different ideas of what THEY believe is ethical and will look for a breeder who matches this. I certainly don't have anything against registered breeders who don't do all the things I would like done, I just wouldn't get a puppy from them.

Part of the problem is that CC registered breeders have a code of ethics - yet many of them don't really know what they say and what they have agreed to and those in the public decide what they think is ethical and expect that everyone else will be and think the same way.

no one has any right to have an expectation on a registered breeder for anything that's not in their code of ethics. that's all they agreed to and all they are held accountable for .

Ask people to define ethical and you dont get the same answer from anyone same with the term reputable.

When people make up their own ethics unless there is an accountability process many of them will justify doing something outside of that if they think its better for attaining their goals some of them will have higher and lower standards - no amount of laws will help that.

I have every right to buy a puppy from someone that meets my personal expectations of what is ethical. I actually don't care one bit about the ANKC rules or whatever. I make up my own mind about what I think is ok or not.

How can you determine if what you see and what you are told is as it is?

[Steve]

But my question is, do you think someone can be ethical without being reg?

define ethical

[Steve]

I didnt say you didnt have a right to buy a puppy from someone you think is ethical according to your definition of what is ethical but I dont think you have a right to expect that those ethics are exactly as you believe them to be unless there is some accountability.

[JulesP]

I didnt say you didnt have a right to buy a puppy from someone you think is ethical according to your definition of what is ethical but I dont think you have a right to expect that those ethics are exactly as you believe them to be unless there is some accountability.

You obviously don't get at all what I am saying therefore any further discussion is pointless.

[Steve]

I didnt say you didnt have a right to buy a puppy from someone you think is ethical according to your definition of what is ethical but I dont think you have a right to expect that those ethics are exactly as you believe them to be unless there is some accountability.

You obviously don't get at all what I am saying therefore any further discussion is pointless.

Well why is it pointless? Im happy to listen and learn and Ive no desire to make any part of this personal why not take the time and tell me what you mean.

Perhaps you need to tell me what you think an ethical breeder does which others dont do?

[Steve]

I have my own list of what I consider to be ethical and what I expect from a breeder. I don't expect my list to be the same as other people's list.

Yes. I think that it's a very subjective thing, everyone will have different ideas of what THEY believe is ethical and will look for a breeder who matches this. I certainly don't have anything against registered breeders who don't do all the things I would like done, I just wouldn't get a puppy from them.

or who appears to match this ?

[JulesP]

I have my own list of what I consider to be ethical and what I expect from a breeder. I don't expect my list to be the same as other people's list.

Yes. I think that it's a very subjective thing, everyone will have different ideas of what THEY believe is ethical and will look for a breeder who matches this. I certainly don't have anything against registered breeders who don't do all the things I would like done, I just wouldn't get a puppy from them.

Part of the problem is that CC registered breeders have a code of ethics - yet many of them don't really know what they say and what they have agreed to and those in the public decide what they think is ethical and expect that everyone else will be and think the same way.

no one has any right to have an expectation on a registered breeder for anything that's not in their code of ethics. that's all they agreed to and all they are held accountable for .

Ask people to define ethical and you dont get the same answer from anyone same with the term reputable.

When people make up their own ethics unless there is an accountability process many of them will justify doing something outside of that if they think its better for attaining their goals some of them will have higher and lower standards - no amount of laws will help that.

I have every right to buy a puppy from someone that meets my personal expectations of what is ethical. I actually don't care one bit about the ANKC rules or whatever. I make up my own mind about what I think is ok or not.

How can you determine if what you see and what you are told is as it is?

Because I will know the breeder or have a guarantee from someone that does.

[Sheridan]

I have my own list of what I consider to be ethical and what I expect from a breeder. I don't expect my list to be the same as other people's list.

Yes. I think that it's a very subjective thing, everyone will have different ideas of what THEY believe is ethical and will look for a breeder who matches this. I certainly don't have anything against registered breeders who don't do all the things I would like done, I just wouldn't get a puppy from them.

Part of the problem is that CC registered breeders have a code of ethics - yet many of them don't really know what they say and what they have agreed to and those in the public decide what they think is ethical and expect that everyone else will be and think the same way.

no one has any right to have an expectation on a registered breeder for anything that's not in their code of ethics. that's all they agreed to and all they are held accountable for .

Ask people to define ethical and you dont get the same answer from anyone same with the term reputable.

When people make up their own ethics unless there is an accountability process many of them will justify doing something outside of that if they think its better for attaining their goals some of them will have higher and lower standards - no amount of laws will help that.

A breeder would have to follow the ANKC Code of Ethics as a minimum. I have certain add-ons after that.

[Staff'n'Mutt]

How can you determine if what you see and what you are told is as it is?

short answer, you can't.

I purchased a dog last year almost to the day. I did my research in the breed we were interested in. Found someone sort of local who bred these dogs. I visited with them. Met the parents. Saw how the dogs were kept. Went to visit the pups spoke endlessly with the "breeder" very helpful very nice people. Eventually paid our money and took our pup home. Expected papers to arrive in the post.

Papers did not arrive.

Breeder did not return calls / emails.

Pup wasn't a pure bred.

Pup had extensive health issues.

Pup was heartbreakingly pts earlier this year.

Very very few of us "pet" buyers can tell who is and who isn't doing the right thing. Or even who is who they say they are.

[Steve]

How can you determine if what you see and what you are told is as it is?

short answer, you can't.

I purchased a dog last year almost to the day. I did my research in the breed we were interested in. Found someone sort of local who bred these dogs. I visited with them. Met the parents. Saw how the dogs were kept. Went to visit the pups spoke endlessly with the "breeder" very helpful very nice people. Eventually paid our money and took our pup home. Expected papers to arrive in the post.

Papers did not arrive.

Breeder did not return calls / emails.

Pup wasn't a pure bred.

Pup had extensive health issues.

Pup was heartbreakingly pts earlier this year.

Very very few of us "pet" buyers can tell who is and who isn't doing the right thing. Or even who is who they say they are.

Thats my point

[Paganman]

How can you determine if what you see and what you are told is as it is?

short answer, you can't.

I purchased a dog last year almost to the day. I did my research in the breed we were interested in. Found someone sort of local who bred these dogs. I visited with them. Met the parents. Saw how the dogs were kept. Went to visit the pups spoke endlessly with the "breeder" very helpful very nice people. Eventually paid our money and took our pup home. Expected papers to arrive in the post.

Papers did not arrive.

Breeder did not return calls / emails.

Pup wasn't a pure bred.

Pup had extensive health issues.

Pup was heartbreakingly pts earlier this year.

Very very few of us "pet" buyers can tell who is and who isn't doing the right thing. Or even who is who they say they are.

So was this person registed with the state canine?

[eyeopener]

I judge a breeder firstly on the lifestyle their dogs live on a day to day basis n not just their house dogs all their dogs, the willingness to put the health of what they are breeding before all else, their policy on taking back dogs they have breed( I believe you should be available to take back ANY dog you have breed no matter the time passed or reasons why) & whether they offer any follow up n training tips etc. If a breeder has a policy to take back all no matter what then they are a lot more careful to home their puppies in the right individual homes & are more on top of genetic health issues otherwise they would be full to the brim with returned pups n dogs wouldn't they.

I also believe health, working ability( even if thats just means companions as that thier work) n drive & temperement in general has to come well before type colour n coats.

I think the breeders details sould be kept on the dogs mc details for its life as the breeder n secondary contact too so it's easier to moniter those breeders that are producing problem after problem health wise n so ponds etc can contact them. It is not up to rescue groups n pounds to rehome a dog you breed that's your respondsabilty as without you the dog would not exist.

I don't think we should only breed for our own needs though as really their is not an over population issue across the board at all just with a few breeds & the problem lays more in unsuitable breeds being placed with the wrong home etc. Also what we want may not be suitable to the vast magority of pet homes so I think it's important to take into consideration what then general puppy buyer is after. But that said I don't think there is any need for any breeder to breed multiply litters every year either.

I think all breeders should be ok with any puppy buyers visiting n meeting all the dogs n seeing all the housing not just the select few they have up front type of deal. Sure bio surcurity is an issue but put booties on them n get them to wash hands on the way in & out n limit the amount of handling if possible if your really concerned. It's pretty easy really n if you have nothing to hide why not?

[eyeopener]

Double post

Edited December 2, 2012 by eyeopener

[eyeopener]

How can you determine if what you see and what you are told is as it is?

short answer, you can't.

I purchased a dog last year almost to the day. I did my research in the breed we were interested in. Found someone sort of local who bred these dogs. I visited with them. Met the parents. Saw how the dogs were kept. Went to visit the pups spoke endlessly with the "breeder" very helpful very nice people. Eventually paid our money and took our pup home. Expected papers to arrive in the post.

Papers did not arrive.

Breeder did not return calls / emails.

Pup wasn't a pure bred.

Pup had extensive health issues.

Pup was heartbreakingly pts earlier this year.

Very very few of us "pet" buyers can tell who is and who isn't doing the right thing. Or even who is who they say they are.

So was this person registed with the state canine?

So sorry to hear this, what the reg papers didn't arrive? Did you view both patents rego papers? Reg to me dosnt neccasaryly mean a healthy dog but if they promised papers that's wrong big time.

[eyeopener]

I have my own list of what I consider to be ethical and what I expect from a breeder. I don't expect my list to be the same as other people's list.

Yes. I think that it's a very subjective thing, everyone will have different ideas of what THEY believe is ethical and will look for a breeder who matches this. I certainly don't have anything against registered breeders who don't do all the things I would like done, I just wouldn't get a puppy from them.

Part of the problem is that CC registered breeders have a code of ethics - yet many of them don't really know what they say and what they have agreed to and those in the public decide what they think is ethical and expect that everyone else will be and think the same way.

no one has any right to have an expectation on a registered breeder for anything that's not in their code of ethics. that's all they agreed to and all they are held accountable for .

Ask people to define ethical and you dont get the same answer from anyone same with the term reputable.

When people make up their own ethics unless there is an accountability process many of them will justify doing something outside of that if they think its better for attaining their goals some of them will have higher and lower standards - no amount of laws will help that.

I have every right to buy a puppy from someone that meets my personal expectations of what is ethical. I actually don't care one bit about the ANKC rules or whatever. I make up my own mind about what I think is ok or not.

I agree totally. To me ethical has to do with health testing being available to take a pup back & being honest about breed traits etc n a piece of paper has nothing to do with that IMHO. There is also more than 1 registry body you can get to hold your paperwork etc with too.

[Staff'n'Mutt]

So was this person registed with the state canine?

I was told yes they had membership with dogsQLD.

It's very easy to once you find these forums to sit back and say, oh well didn't check this or that or should have known from XYZ.

But most of us Jo Publics that want healthy pets don't visit this forum or ones like it. because we don't know that we should research the "breeder" to the same extent as the dog.

[Dame Aussie]

I have my own list of what I consider to be ethical and what I expect from a breeder. I don't expect my list to be the same as other people's list.

Yes. I think that it's a very subjective thing, everyone will have different ideas of what THEY believe is ethical and will look for a breeder who matches this. I certainly don't have anything against registered breeders who don't do all the things I would like done, I just wouldn't get a puppy from them.

or who appears to match this ?

I do a lot of research, meet them and see their property, get recommendations. Sure, there's a chance that I might get taken for a ride, but I do what I can, nothing is 100%.

[Staff'n'Mutt]

So sorry to hear this, what the reg papers didn't arrive? Did you view both patents rego papers? Reg to me dosnt neccasaryly mean a healthy dog but if they promised papers that's wrong big time.

thank you, yes I saw the parents papers or papers I believed to be for the parents it wasn't until she'd been here awhile that we started thinking, she wasn't purebred (vet confirmed this down the track) but by then she was our dog and we loved her regardless.

No nothing arrived when I tried to check with the breeder in case they sort of got"lost in the mail" they didn't respond to calls / texts / emails. even drove there once but no one answered the door.

[oakway]

So sorry to hear this, what the reg papers didn't arrive? Did you view both patents rego papers? Reg to me dosnt neccasaryly mean a healthy dog but if they promised papers that's wrong big time.

thank you, yes I saw the parents papers or papers I believed to be for the parents it wasn't until she'd been here awhile that we started thinking, she wasn't purebred (vet confirmed this down the track) but by then she was our dog and we loved her regardless.

No nothing arrived when I tried to check with the breeder in case they sort of got"lost in the mail" they didn't respond to calls / texts / emails. even drove there once but no one answered the door.

Yes, but did you ring Dogs Queensland and ask if these people were current members. Did you ask to see their current membership card ?. Did you go to dog shows and speak to other breeders to ascertain that these people were regular breeders ?.

Edited December 3, 2012 by oakway