My Boy Has Atopic Dermititis

[persephone]

Also, a slightly higher dose every second day is better than a lesser dose every day.

My vet used to call this 'pulse' therapy ..and it's basically what my very allergic boy was on for all his life (12 years)

[aussielover]

Hi Bobishisname,

My 2 year old Lab also has atopic dermatitis, a very frustrating condition for both owners and vets We also had the skin prick and blood tests performed and she is allergic to pretty much everything- mainly dust mites but also pollens and grasses (so basically, allergic to life).

Whilst she is not severely atopic (you couldn't tell just by looking at her), she gets quite itchy and has had episodes of recurrent pyoderma.

We have tried lots of different things, and I'm happy to say that currently, she is very well controlled and pretty much back to being a normal dog.

Unfortunately, this requires her to be on Atopica (cyclosporine) which is not cheap for a 27kg dog, but it does allow her to lead a comfortable and normal life. I think she will be most likely be on this long term, she is on a low dose every 2nd day, and we are starting to cut it back even further. I am fortunate enough to work at a vet clinic and so get it at a very reduced price, which makes it affordable for me at the moment (around $100 a month, so still not cheap).

Low dose pred, as your dog is on, is also an option. However I would not say that being on either cyclosporine or atopica long term is completely risk free. I think over time, there is increased risk of side effects with both drugs. Pred is not really an option for my dog because she does react quite badly to it- marked PU/PD, excessive appetite, vomiting and lethargy and for some reason it doesn't really seem to reduce her levels of itch as well.

Topical creams such as Neocort, Aristocort and Elocon have also been really useful for her as her main problem areas are tummy and armpits.

They are not as useful for more generalised itch, or very hairy areas, however, I found Cortavance spray quite good for those areas.

I wipe her over with Malacetic wipes every night as well, which seems to help prevent infections (she hasn't had any for over a year now).

Antihistamines have not worked for my dog, except to make her sleepy (and therefore not itch as much), and I was giving her Iramine (chlorpheniramine) 16mg at nights. However, now she is well controlled on atopica, there is no need for this anymore. Unfortunately, the effectiveness of antihistamines is really individual to each dog. Your vet will be able to provide you with a list of antihistamines and their dose rates.

Shampoo, both normal and medicated seem to make my dog more itchy, but they have worked well for other dogs. I believe the dermatologists are now recommended a product called Mediderm (similar to malaseb) as well as nutriderm conditioners.

Regular bathing has not been effective for us, but is for many dogs.

I have not bathed my dog in over a year but she gets regular (usually daily) swimming in the ocean which seems to help. She is also weird because she seems to get better over summer, where as most dogs are worse in spring and summer. I am not sure whether the more regular swimming in summer is the reason for this.

I also like the essential 6 spot on (it smells lovely :)), it gives them a nice shiny coat but didn't really seem to help with the itch.

We also went thru the desensitization injections (she's still on them) and they didn't seem to make any difference at all, so I'm guessing my dog was in the 30% of dogs where they don't help

Unfortunately with atopy, each dogs responds to treatments differently, so it can be a matter of trial and error. We saw a dermatologist initially and keep in contact but I am currently very, very happy with my dog's progress and current condition.

Personally I find the combination of topical creams/spray/washes + low dose immunosuppressives (cyclosporine or pred) is reasonably effective in the majority of dogs.

The Pfizer trial is still going, ask your vet to find out about it for you. We were in the trial and my dog did brilliantly on the trial drug, however it won't be available for several years. I think it would be better to go on the control of cyclosporine (although I believe some clinics now use pred as a control) so you get 3 months free cyclosporine during the build-up phase which requires a higher dosage. But sadly, you don't get a choice as to which drug they go on.

Good Luck with your boy, I know how frustrating it can be.

Edited November 25, 2012 by aussielover

[Kavik]

I have an allergy boy as well.

I just do regular bathing with Malaseb and when it really flares up and he chews a hole in himself (happens every few months) we get cortisone and antibiotics. He is still itchy, but it varies a lot. Antihistimine helped a little bit for a little while, but made him really sleepy (and he is lazy enough as it is!) and then he went back to scratching, so I haven't tried it again.

[westiemum]

Great post Stormie. Bob is his name, it's possible that the drug trial is still on - they needed lots of dogs over quite some period of time but the criteria were pretty strict so you need to have a really itchy dog to get on it. Unfortunately, my Sarah (Westie) romped it in and did very well on Atopica, the control drug. So I suggest you ask your own vet or ring the Vet School at the University of Queensand and ask the dermatologist about the trial - worth a phone call. Or alternatively track down a dermatologist in private practice and ask.

But having said that, I've decided I don't like Atopica for long-term use for Sarah, even at relatively low doses. Sarah's incontinence is definitely related to her Atopica use. It's incredible - give her a dose of Atopica and she's mildly incontinent the next day. You can set your watch by it.

So a couple of things SAS said I absolutely agree with:

1. Atopica definitely has side effects so be very careful (and its shockingly expensive if you want to continue with it after the trial).

2. Don't go chasing witchcraft. It will be disappointing, hard on your dog and simply cost you money. If there were easy solutions to itchy dogs it would have been solved years ago.

I think it's very individual about how each dog responds to what treatment. Accurate diagnosis is really important. That's where my specialist dermatologist came into his own. I now know what I'm dealing with. At the same time trust your observations. If you think something is happening you are probably right as you spend most time with the dog, not the vet. Interestingly, after a recent course of antibiotics for kennel cough, Sarahs itching and scratching got much much worse. So I suspect she is like many women and tends to get 'yeasty' after antibiotics ('doggy thrush' - is there such a thing?). Again the apple cider vinegar seemed to work quickly and very effectively - her skin appearance improved and her scratching reduced literally overnight.

So I've made a decision to take Sarah off the Atopica, use antibiotics only as a last resort, and stay with the apple cider vinegar for the moment which is working a treat - the difference in her scratching behaviour and skin quality is remarkable. It's a cheap easy solution that appears to be working for me. But it must be diluted at least 1:4. (I use 1:5).

So IMO you'll need to find a specific solution for your individual dog.

Hope that helps. Will be very interested to hear how you get on. :)

Edited November 25, 2012 by westiemum

[westiemum]

Hi Bobishisname,

My 2 year old Lab also has atopic dermatitis, a very frustrating condition for both owners and vets We also had the skin prick and blood tests performed and she is allergic to pretty much everything- mainly dust mites but also pollens and grasses (so basically, allergic to life).

Whilst she is not severely atopic (you couldn't tell just by looking at her), she gets quite itchy and has had episodes of recurrent pyoderma.

We have tried lots of different things, and I'm happy to say that currently, she is very well controlled and pretty much back to being a normal dog.

Unfortunately, this requires her to be on Atopica (cyclosporine) which is not cheap for a 27kg dog, but it does allow her to lead a comfortable and normal life. I think she will be most likely be on this long term, she is on a low dose every 2nd day, and we are starting to cut it back even further. I am fortunate enough to work at a vet clinic and so get it at a very reduced price, which makes it affordable for me at the moment (around $100 a month, so still not cheap).

Low dose pred, as your dog is on, is also an option. However I would not say that being on either cyclosporine or atopica long term is completely risk free. I think over time, there is increased risk of side effects with both drugs. Pred is not really an option for my dog because she does react quite badly to it- marked PU/PD, excessive appetite, vomiting and lethargy and for some reason it doesn't really seem to reduce her levels of itch as well.

Topical creams such as Neocort, Aristocort and Elocon have also been really useful for her as her main problem areas are tummy and armpits.

They are not as useful for more generalised itch, or very hairy areas, however, I found Cortavance spray quite good for those areas.

I wipe her over with Malacetic wipes every night as well, which seems to help prevent infections (she hasn't had any for over a year now).

Antihistamines have not worked for my dog, except to make her sleepy (and therefore not itch as much), and I was giving her Iramine (chlorpheniramine) 16mg at nights. However, now she is well controlled on atopica, there is no need for this anymore. Unfortunately, the effectiveness of antihistamines is really individual to each dog. Your vet will be able to provide you with a list of antihistamines and their dose rates.

Shampoo, both normal and medicated seem to make my dog more itchy, but they have worked well for other dogs. I believe the dermatologists are now recommended a product called Mediderm (similar to malaseb) as well as nutriderm conditioners.

Regular bathing has not been effective for us, but is for many dogs.

I have not bathed my dog in over a year but she gets regular (usually daily) swimming in the ocean which seems to help. She is also weird because she seems to get better over summer, where as most dogs are worse in spring and summer. I am not sure whether the more regular swimming in summer is the reason for this.

I also like the essential 6 spot on (it smells lovely :)), it gives them a nice shiny coat but didn't really seem to help with the itch.

We also went thru the desensitization injections (she's still on them) and they didn't seem to make any difference at all, so I'm guessing my dog was in the 30% of dogs where they don't help

Unfortunately with atopy, each dogs responds to treatments differently, so it can be a matter of trial and error. We saw a dermatologist initially and keep in contact but I am currently very, very happy with my dog's progress and current condition.

Personally I find the combination of topical creams/spray/washes + low dose immunosuppressives (cyclosporine or pred) is reasonably effective in the majority of dogs.

The Pfizer trial is still going, ask your vet to find out about it for you. We were in the trial and my dog did brilliantly on the trial drug, however it won't be available for several years. I think it would be better to go on the control of cyclosporine (although I believe some clinics now use pred as a control) so you get 3 months free cyclosporine during the build-up phase which requires a higher dosage. But sadly, you don't get a choice as to which drug they go on.

Good Luck with your boy, I know how frustrating it can be.

Great post Aussie. There certainly seems to be no one easy answer to itchy dogs.

[Bobishisname]

Wow this is amazing guys, thank you so much will all the time you have taken to respond to my questions.

I agree with what everyone is saying, control is different from dog to dog and unfortunately on what's affordable for dog owners.

I have continued with the 2.5mg for 4 days now with the antihistamine, and I have only seen him scratch a handful of times over this period, so major difference.

After tomorrow, I drop it down again to every second day. This will be the test. And I'm hoping it works for him, as from what you have all said and what I have researched myself 2.5mg every second day is a really small dose and should he best chance of control without side effects. So fingers crossed.

If he does go well after a week, I'll try dropping it down again, to every third day and so on. So fingers crossed we can get by without changing methods.

If his itching does pick back up, I think I'll make the phone call to the University and ask about the trial.

My boy is only 9.2kg so not big, but unfortunately I still can't afford the amount my vet quoted for Atopica use. But I've been really happy with the difference the pred has made for him. So hopefully we can adjust his dosage low enough to ensure best chances of less long term side effects.

I'll will get some apple cider to add to his water too, as I have read about the before. I can't see any harm in trying it.

He is currently being washed in Aloveen Natural Shampoo(the blue bottle one), and I use a rinse of QV oil at the end. I do this once a week, as it seems to help keep the itches at bay.

He is currently fed, 1 x chicken wing about 1/4-1/3 cup Canaidae PureLand formula and about 50-100gm of VitaRoll which is just lamb, rice and oils per day. It seems to be working best for him at the moment. I have been doing some reading on VAN but it seems rather expensive, although I know you need less of it so it works out cheaper in the long run. However I have tried my dog on raw before (not VAN) and it has upset his stomach on and off and seemed to make his itches worse. I have also tried adding fish oil to his diet, but he won't touch it, tried sardines too but even the smallest drop of oil added to his kibble or roll, will turn him away, wierd.

I haven't heard of the essential spot on 6 before so I might do some reasearch into that. Is it only available in Vet Clinics do you know?

Again thank you all so very much for taking the time to help me and my boy out. It's greatly appreciated.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Bobishisname

[sas]

Heya, we recently did a food comparison for our Rescue and you may be interested to see how your food compares to others - alot of those fillers aren't awesome for soem itchy dogs.

http://www.greatdanerescue.com.au/downloads.htm then scroll down to Health Related and then 'Comparing Australian Kibbles'.

[Bobishisname]

Heya, we recently did a food comparison for our Rescue and you may be interested to see how your food compares to others - alot of those fillers aren't awesome for soem itchy dogs.

http://www.greatdanerescue.com.au/downloads.htm then scroll down to Health Related and then 'Comparing Australian Kibbles'.

Thanks Sas, I did a similiar table when I first looked into his diet, but I also included omega levels. I find it very interesting to have them all lined up and to compare them. The vet and I seem to think his diet is working well for him at the moment, and he enjoys it which is nice as he has never been very food motivated.

I never looked into VAN, but when time permits I might look through it, as I have read it can work great with atopic dogs. But I never believe what I'm told straight up I also have to research it for myself, a little OCD I think

[sas]

Heya, we recently did a food comparison for our Rescue and you may be interested to see how your food compares to others - alot of those fillers aren't awesome for soem itchy dogs.

http://www.greatdane...u/downloads.htm then scroll down to Health Related and then 'Comparing Australian Kibbles'.

Thanks Sas, I did a similiar table when I first looked into his diet, but I also included omega levels. I find it very interesting to have them all lined up and to compare them. The vet and I seem to think his diet is working well for him at the moment, and he enjoys it which is nice as he has never been very food motivated.

I never looked into VAN, but when time permits I might look through it, as I have read it can work great with atopic dogs. But I never believe what I'm told straight up I also have to research it for myself, a little OCD I think

We did VAN and it made my dog worse - but it's a very individual thing.

[Bobishisname]

Heya, we recently did a food comparison for our Rescue and you may be interested to see how your food compares to others - alot of those fillers aren't awesome for soem itchy dogs.

http://www.greatdane...u/downloads.htm then scroll down to Health Related and then 'Comparing Australian Kibbles'.

Thanks Sas, I did a similiar table when I first looked into his diet, but I also included omega levels. I find it very interesting to have them all lined up and to compare them. The vet and I seem to think his diet is working well for him at the moment, and he enjoys it which is nice as he has never been very food motivated.

I never looked into VAN, but when time permits I might look through it, as I have read it can work great with atopic dogs. But I never believe what I'm told straight up I also have to research it for myself, a little OCD I think

We did VAN and it made my dog worse - but it's a very individual thing.

Yes I honestly think my dog would be the same. Thank you for all your help.