Temperament And Behaviour - Inherited Or Not? & Puppy Versus Adult

[zeebie]

My precious poodle is not only the spitting duplicate of her dad but has his temperment as well, both mum & dad have very placid temperaments but still with that extra personality thrown in, and she is them both, more so dad and has not spent any time with him at all and has same mouth gestures, same attention seeking positioning etc it is so uncanny. But I have to believe that this behaviour is common in poodles anyway so may just be that coming through, however the distinct personality and temperament has to be genetically linked

I have met some pretty snappy obnoxious poodles in my day (funnily enough owners were the same)so some of this has to be nurture but hard to determine without a longtitudnal study on a line of a breed to see how they all turned out over successvive generations given the various different environments they were subjected to.

[tdierikx]

Both nature AND nurture play their own roles in how a dog will "turn out"... no 2 pups from any litter will end up exactly the same in temperament/behaviour - whether they be from pure stock or mixed.

A little off topic... there was a book/movie some time ago called "The Boys From Brazil" where the basis of the story was that some scientists had cloned Hitler genetically, but they realised thet to get the complete "replica" of the man, they had to also ensure that the clone children had to have the exact same experiences during their lives. Scary movie, but somewhat educational in its theme...

T.

[Tralee]

Extraordinary responses.

A lot of contradictions will only cause confusion.

In the context of temperament, which is the paramount issue for dog owners, a dog left to its own devices will become feral.

The more intervention, rather the more correct intervention, the lower the production of undesirable temperament.

Unless the parents are pathologically aggressive, then the dogs are almost totally a product of their environment.

That said, intervention begins from the whelp, food obsessive and fussy eaters should be avoided.

[WreckitWhippet]

Extraordinary responses.

A lot of contradictions will only cause confusion.

In the context of temperament, which is the paramount issue for dog owners, a dog left to its own devices will become feral.

The more intervention, rather the more correct intervention, the lower the production of undesirable temperament.

Unless the parents are pathologically aggressive, then the dogs are almost totally a product of their environment.

That said, intervention begins from the whelp, food obsessive and fussy eaters should be avoided.

If that were the case, then there's be no point in selecting dogs from parents with working or sporting ability or the ability to race around a track. There's be no point in breeding from dogs that are calm, dependable or even bidable. If what you say is true, then there'd be no need to breed from dogs with drive or "working lines" as you'd be able to make a dog whatever you want it to be.

Once you've had close contact with more than a couple of generations of dogs, you can see just how much a sire or even a grandsire can influence a litter.

[Vickie]

Unless the parents are pathologically aggressive, then the dogs are almost totally a product of their environment.

If that were the case, then there's be no point in selecting dogs from parents with working or sporting ability or the ability to race around a track. There's be no point in breeding from dogs that are calm, dependable or even bidable. If what you say is true, then there'd be no need to breed from dogs with drive or "working lines" as you'd be able to make a dog whatever you want it to be.

Once you've had close contact with more than a couple of generations of dogs, you can see just how much a sire or even a grandsire can influence a litter.

Well said!

[Steve]

Almost every dog I've owned over 35 years came in as a puppy – under 10 weeks of age one of two breeds

All raised the same in the same environment – all similar but different.

If we didn't believe that dogs have different temperaments which they are born with, genetically predisposed to then we wouldn't bother breeding purebred dogs and we wouldn't take so much trouble to research and choose a breed which is most suited to us but it's important to clarify what we are talking about when we speak of temperament to sort out whether it is nature or nurture and we are all talking about the same thing.

According to research [segursonSA.]

Temperament is different to character and different to personality.

Character is considered the product of the animal's environment and experiences. The behaviours seen are the animal's habits of responding to stimuli. These develop secondary to experiences, a learning history. It is influenced by changing environment.

Temperament: the pet's natural or innate responses to its environment, its emotional responses.

It is considered stable over time, and is the foundation of personality.The character can influence it but cannot change it.

Personality:combination of temperament and character, an animal's overall way of responding to the environment. It is based on past experience and genetic tendencies.

As a good example some years ago I purchased a new baby beagle, by then I'd bred heaps and lived with a couple of dozen and knew what to expect as to how they behaved. This boy came in and was to all intents and purposes terrified. We always blamed the breeder's lack of socialisation and the fact that it had been in a situation all its life to 8 weeks with one person who went to work and had no experience with kids or the usual household stimulus. As he got older no matter how hard we tried he never acted the way we expected. He wasn't aggressive but passive and preferred to be left alone. All of the other beagles loved to be handled and loved but this little guy would simply stand up and move away. He showed no desire to scent and explore he was easy to live with never gave us a problem but he wasn't much fun either. It was obvious when they were all draped over the front porch staked up on top of each other he would be out on his own, he had no desire to play or have company. So because I blamed how he was raised as a pup and he was a handsome devil I bred him to one of my typically acting beagle girls. Puppies were beautiful but no matter how much work I put into it two were like their dad. Same Mum and same breeder, all puppies had the same stimuli and were handled and treated the same but by the time they were 8 weeks old I had no doubt whatever that the temperament this boy had was not the result of the socialisation but rather something he was born with. I also had a bitch who was a real cow and every time I turned around she was trying to escape, up and over , under or through to get out and go and she had some puppies who were as bad as she was even though she had no chance to teach them that. I had another beagle boy who refused to poop on the ground and used a water bowl as a toot, I got taller water bowls and he would balance on top of a thin rim to get that poop into the water trough drove me nuts and no amount of training or management prevented him from doing it .I worked him out and gave him two water bowls one he pooped in and I emptied as if it was a child's potty and the other he drank out of . he had a son and a grandson which did the same even though neither of them ever had anything to do with him to learn the behaviour, dogs that lived with him never copied him either. In my estimate that's not just a bad habit there is something born in them that drives them to it.

Since then Ive selected for temperament and now there is rarely much difference in temperament,character or personality within each litter. I don't get one that's more or less pushy, more or less adventurous, more or less friendly and cuddly etc at 8 weeks even if I change the stimuli and environment, treat them differently with my Maremma which will go into working homes the basic temperament is the same.I also believe that if you dont select for work you dont just magically get it even though the breed was developed to work. You loose it if you dont select for it. Based on my research and experience as a breeder and a mother of 8 I believe that temperament is genetic if we are all using the same definition of temperament.

References:

Goodard, ME and Beilharz, RG (1986). Early prediction ofadult behavior in potential guide dogs. AppliedAnimal Behaviour Science 15:247-260.

Svartberg, K, Tapper, I, Temrin,H, Radesater, T, Thorman, S (2005). Consistency of personality traits in dogs. Animal Behaviour 69: 281-291

Weiss, E and Greenberg, G(1997). Service dog selection tests: Effectiveness for dogs from animalshelters. Applied AnimalBehaviour Science 53:297-308.

Wilsson, E and Sundgren P(1997). The use of a behaviour test for selection of dogs for service andbreeding. II. Heritability for tested parameters and effect of selection basedon service dog characteristics. AppliedAnimal Behaviour Science 54:235-241.

Wilsson, E and Sundgren P (1998). Behaviour test foreight-week old puppies—heritabilities of tested behaviour traits and itscorrespondence to later behaviour. AppliedAnimal Behaviour Science 56:151-162.

SegursonSA. Ch. 23 in: BSAVA Manual of Canineand Feline Behavioural Medicine,

2^nded. British Small Animal Veterinary Association,

Quedgeley,Gloucester, Ch 23 pp. 270-280.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Steve

[Salukifan]

Extraordinary responses.

A lot of contradictions will only cause confusion.

In the context of temperament, which is the paramount issue for dog owners, a dog left to its own devices will become feral.

The more intervention, rather the more correct intervention, the lower the production of undesirable temperament.

Unless the parents are pathologically aggressive, then the dogs are almost totally a product of their environment.

That said, intervention begins from the whelp, food obsessive and fussy eaters should be avoided.

I find this the most extraordinary response in the thread. Not only does it fly in the face of scientific research, anyone who's familiar with more than a few dogs in more than a few breeds would refute it.

The idea that all dogs are basically alike and the differences between them are largely cosmetic has probably accounted for more dogs dumped than any other. Terriers, herding dogs, sighthounds - raised in the same environment and by the same methods you do NOT get the same temperament in the dog.

By your reasoning, I could raise any pup with livestock and get a livestock guardian.

Sorry but you don't get a blank slate with a pup. Some aspects of temperament are hard wired and dog aggression can be one example. You can socialise the pants of some dogs of fighting ancestry but come maturity, you can still end up with a dog that takes no prisoners if provoked.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[persephone]

When breeding dogs to obtain pups for Guide Dog work ..soundness of body AND temperament were paramount ( back in my day ...)

With our working sheepdogs temperament is vital ... and is selected for when choosing parents for a prospective litter .

I think the point is that , yes, puppies can inherit temperamental traits from parents . No question .

BUT .. with training and socialisation a pup can become what its owners need.

The nurture part may also cover over temperamental faults ....the 'problem' is still there , albeit now smoothed over and relegated to the deep , so to speak .

[persephone]

I've had four dogs, two males and two females.

I'm not attributing any of the four dogs temperaments to the parents temperament.

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That number of different dogs doesn't really seem like much to base an important premise on , IMO . I may be wrong though :p

[Steve]

Are we both on the same page - perhaps Im misunderstanding - maybe my idea of feral is different so Define feral ?

A dog left to its own devices does not necessarily become non tamed and a wild animal and the more intervention the lower the undesirable behaviour not temperament. Ive seen dogs left in back yard with little more than a feed and water for a decade which are still tamed dogs, like humans and other dogs etc when given the option though they are not trained.

Maremma which are left to their own devices out on 1000's of thousands of acres where they see humans only every few weeks for basic observation are not trained to walk on a lead or to sit and stay etc but The ability for a Maremma to live within a flock of sheep and decide and do what is necessary with no aggression to keep them safe is not trained in - its bred in. leave them to their own devices and they do a better job not worse.

[dogmate]

There is a million studies done on this topic in humans and all types of animals. The nature v nuture debate. Nothing is ever conclusive and we relie on both for the characteristics. Also what one person thinks is great in a dog temperament wise is anothers persons nightmare. Doing dog sports i love an active dog however the person next door might like the lapdog next to them and think my dog is psycho where as i would think there was a boring temperament. I guess that why we have so many different breeds for many different purposes.

[sas]

Hi all

Can I ask does a dog inherit their sires and Dam's temperament and behaviour or not?

If a sire has a very bad temperament do their puppies inherit this?

As a follow on question, is it easier to settle a puppy into a new house and raise them to your lifestyle and environment versus an Adult? Apart from the obvious of toilet training, feeding etc are puppies easier to bring into a new home as opposed to adults?

100% that dogs temperaments are genetics that is exactly how different breeds have different breed temperments as per their breed standards.

Genetics doesn't quite work in the sense of if Dad has a bad temp then all off spring will, it's the same that if three kids in a family of 7 need glasses or has allergies. You also have to consider why Dad has a bad temp, does he have weak nerves, did something happen to him in his critical socialisation period? Has he been forced into behaving in a certain manner?

I definately would not touch a litter from a Sire who had a bad temp, why increase your chances of a bad temp?

I personaly believe adults are easier than pups to bring into new homes, they're already emotionaly and mentaly mature.

[espinay2]

Extraordinary responses.

A lot of contradictions will only cause confusion.

In the context of temperament, which is the paramount issue for dog owners, a dog left to its own devices will become feral.

The more intervention, rather the more correct intervention, the lower the production of undesirable temperament.

Unless the parents are pathologically aggressive, then the dogs are almost totally a product of their environment.

That said, intervention begins from the whelp, food obsessive and fussy eaters should be avoided.

I most definitely can't agree with this and I too find THIS comment extraordinary! The base temperamnet of a dog is what they inherit and are born with.

As Steve mentioned, character, personality, and also experience add other layers, but the base temperament is what you start with and defines a dogs 'default' reactions and actions.

The two bitches I mentioned in my post are an example. Same environment, same dam, different temperament which reflects temperaments also seen other dogs in the two sire lines.

Once you've had close contact with more than a couple of generations of dogs, you can see just how much a sire or even a grandsire can influence a litter.

Yes, it can become quite obvious over multiple generations of observation how these things can be inherited.

Are we both on the same page - perhaps Im misunderstanding - maybe my idea of feral is different so Define feral ?

A dog left to its own devices does not necessarily become non tamed and a wild animal and the more intervention the lower the undesirable behaviour not temperament. Ive seen dogs left in back yard with little more than a feed and water for a decade which are still tamed dogs, like humans and other dogs etc when given the option though they are not trained.

Maremma which are left to their own devices out on 1000's of thousands of acres where they see humans only every few weeks for basic observation are not trained to walk on a lead or to sit and stay etc but The ability for a Maremma to live within a flock of sheep and decide and do what is necessary with no aggression to keep them safe is not trained in - its bred in. leave them to their own devices and they do a better job not worse.

Even dogs raised 'hands off' as Steve mentions above will show innate traits such as steady nerve, or reactiveness. There will be those that stand their ground or investigate and those that bolt at the slightest introduction of something new or something like a loud unexpected sound. How they react to the environment around them, how they investigate new things in their environment, are at its base, products of their nature.

And when it comes to raising a dog in the home, that 'base nature' can influence how they react while being 'socialised' and how much work and effort it takes to get them used to new things. It can mean that placed under 'stress' (by this I mean changing its environment in some way - be it taking it to a new one or introducing something new be it object, sounds, person, animal etc) some dogs will handle the same experiences in different ways than others.

It must also be remembered there is really no such thing as 'good' or 'bad' temperament. It is a LOT more complicated than such a simple black and white definition.

Edited November 19, 2012 by espinay2

[Greytmate]

I've seen two bitches in the same litter, same rearing, turn out different from each other. In the same way that I am different from my siblings.

Inheritance isn't just a straight out half and half from each parent, some kids will have some of Mum's nature and traits, some will have some of Dads, some will be a mix of both and some might end up with with some of the recessives from grandparents or even ancestors further back. Genotype is inherited, but phenotype can vary depending on the combination of what has been inherited. .

There has been research showing that the nature of the dam will affect the way the pups turn out because of early environment. She teaches the pups how to react to things. If she is aggressive her pups will be living with that and learning.

So you wouldn't want to buy a dog with faulty parents, or grandparents, or great grandparents. That's why it's so important to buy from a registered breeder. unregistered breeders don't allow you to know anything further back than the current generation.

I'm not sure why people would think there is no genetic component to breed. Pugs act differently to whippets, GSDs act differently to King Charles Spaniels. We have breeds that act at different stages of the prey drive sequence, and we have dogs that are motivated by different things to go into drive, and to come out of drive. The great thing about registered purebreed pups is that you have an idea of the dog's potential.

I think you have a better chance of a knowing exactly what a dog is like as an adult than a pup. Buy a pup if it suits you to raise a pup, it's a lot of work. Buy an adult dog that has been assessed if you don't want the extra work of owning a pup, or want to give an adult dog a second chance.

[ellz]

Of course, to add even further fuel for debate, the question could be asked....when you are talking about temperament, are you talking about the temperament you prefer or the temperament that is correct for the breed you are discussing?

Whilst most people would tend to look for obedient, faithful, loving, affectionate dogs, the fact is that some breed standards call for something other than what we personally are seeking. So therefore, a lot of the question of temperament and behaviour is reliant upon whether you are looking for correct or preferred.

[Quickasyoucan]

Extraordinary responses.

A lot of contradictions will only cause confusion.

In the context of temperament, which is the paramount issue for dog owners, a dog left to its own devices will become feral.

The more intervention, rather the more correct intervention, the lower the production of undesirable temperament.

Unless the parents are pathologically aggressive, then the dogs are almost totally a product of their environment.

That said, intervention begins from the whelp, food obsessive and fussy eaters should be avoided.

If that were the case, then there's be no point in selecting dogs from parents with working or sporting ability or the ability to race around a track. There's be no point in breeding from dogs that are calm, dependable or even bidable. If what you say is true, then there'd be no need to breed from dogs with drive or "working lines" as you'd be able to make a dog whatever you want it to be.

Once you've had close contact with more than a couple of generations of dogs, you can see just how much a sire or even a grandsire can influence a litter.

So true, many many years ago we bred a litter in the UK with our very even tempered Welsh Springer Spaniel bitch. The sire we used we were told was wary of children but we were advised it was because he was at one time in a yard where kids going past used to tease him. Anyway at least 3 dogs in the subsequent litter were very wary of children and did not have the type of spaniel temperament you would expect. Those dogs were raised by members of our family and our own family all of whom had children (ie they were socialised with well behaved children from a young age). They simply did not like any strange children or in fact strangers of any kind. Very much an inherited issue imo.

[Bjelkier]

I have 3 related dogs here. Full brother (Beowulf) and sister (Daenerys) and a half brother (Dante), all have the same mother. I bred the full siblings and brought the half brother home at 8 weeks. All dogs have been raised in the same way.

Dante and Daenerys show common traits of their mothers line, they're also the closest out of all 5 of our dogs. Yet Daenerys has a few of little quirks that are very much her father, such as eating her breakfast lying down :laugh:

Beowulf is unlike any of his siblings or his parents. I've met his maternal grandparents and I've known quite a number of dogs from his paternal grandmothers line and he's not like them either. Physically he looks the most like his paternal grandfather but as his father is an AI I'm unable to say if he's the most like him behaviourally or not.

It will be interesting to see what these dogs produce later on.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Bjelkier

[Steve]

There has been research showing that the nature of the dam will affect the way the pups turn out because of early environment. She teaches the pups how to react to things. If she is aggressive her pups will be living with that and learning.

This is what has been the belief for as long as I can remember but the research doesn't necessarily back it up . Goodard has some good stuff on this which shoots the theory a bit and orphaned litters usually turn out just fine without the input of their Mum on their environment after they are born.

[alpha bet]

Of course, to add even further fuel for debate, the question could be asked....when you are talking about temperament, are you talking about the temperament you prefer or the temperament that is correct for the breed you are discussing? .......

Eliz is absolutely correct with this comment and it is easy for breeders to lose track of what they are aiming for.....Years ago I bred German Shepherds, however in this day and age there are very few families that can provide the right environment for the strong working breeds such as the GSD - a dog with high prey drive is not a dog that fits well into most backyards - nowdays I prefer the easier going Aussie. The problem with dogs such at the APBT and Pit Bull is that if they are bred for what they are designed for (fighting) ... they should not be living within a community as almost no family would provide the right environment and supervision for this breed. The same can be said for many other common breeds. Communities these days require dogs be easy going and social with people and dogs in varied situations, hence why the attraction for the oodles as they are seen by the public as easy family dogs (debatable).

Temperament is fixed at birth - sourced from BOTH parents - however the behaviours that present can be modified by the environment (either good or bad) - to what extent we can modify can often be determined by the actual Temperament of the dog..... Hence the importance of breeders choosing the best dna possible for their breed and then to ensure they sell to people who can follow thru with the appropriate environment for that breed.... This is a very big commitment and is a constant learning experience for the breeder.

A very interesting experiment was held in Budapest with regard to temperament and domestication.

Part 1: A group of research students each raised a puppy from 8 weeks of age from the same a litter from a domestic dog - a strict pattern of upbringing was used by the students and pups were raised till 6 months old and then re-homed with families.

Part 2: The same group of research students then each raised a wolf pup from the same litter from a wolf living in a santuary - the mother was used to humans and the litter was seperated as soon as they could be weaned and then handled in the same way as the dogs and at 8 weeks of age the wolf pups went to the same research students and received the same strict pattern of upbrining.

Initially the wolf pups were playful and interacted with the humans but quickly they noticed that the wolf pups did not make eye contact with the humans in the same way as the domestic pups also they displayed strong independence and then became uninterested in human activity. By the time they were 5 months old the wolves were becoming too difficult to live with and were removed from the homes and placed back into the sanctuary.

Perhaps this is a good indication that you cant change the Tempement and sometimes it can be difficult to modify the behaviour.

[Steve]

Ellz and Alpha bet