Rescue Dogs - Clues To Their Lives Before You.

[Wobbly]

Of course it's unacceptable for people to not deal with issues in the here and now because of events that may have (or may not have) occurred in the past. In that direction lies only heartache, I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that people wondering about their dog's history will neccessarily seek to excuse poor behaviour because of a dog's past experiences.

We're human, it's our nature to wonder, to try to understand the whys & wherefores and discover all the missing pieces of a puzzle. I know for myself I often wonder about my dog's past, can't help it, it's my natural hardwired human inclination to wonder about the unknown. It doesn't affect how I manage my dog (or any other aspect of my life) I determine that her from my own experiences of her behaviour patterns.

You'll notice the thread subtitle is, and has always been:

"You can never know for sure, but we'll always speculate",

And so in idle moments we will always speculate, and that speculation in no way negates the caveat that we may just be way off track.

[Wobbly]

Two of the things that drive me nuttiest about not knowing is that I don't even know her age for sure, or her breeding. The age I think I can pinpoint to a few months either side of the actual truth, but breed is far more difficult to ascertain. I oscillate between Amstaff, Pit Bull or Staffy cross, but I'm never able to decide for sure either. I wish the DNA tests were more conclusive so I could finally get a definite answer to that one. Not that it's important in terms of managing her, she is what she is, and whether I know for sure or not doesn't change anything, but for myself and my own curiosity I would love to know.

[Kajtek]

My ff boy came via rescue. He was beautifully trained. He walked on a lead like a dream, knew heaps of commands and did as he was asked. He had (and has) the most divine personality.

Since adopting him I have successfully developed his 'evil' persona :laugh: So there!!!

[nawnim]

Two of the things that drive me nuttiest about not knowing is that I don't even know her age for sure, or her breeding. The age I think I can pinpoint to a few months either side of the actual truth, but breed is far more difficult to ascertain. I oscillate between Amstaff, Pit Bull or Staffy cross, but I'm never able to decide for sure either. I wish the DNA tests were more conclusive so I could finally get a definite answer to that one. Not that it's important in terms of managing her, she is what she is, and whether I know for sure or not doesn't change anything, but for myself and my own curiosity I would love to know.

The breeding of your rescue dog is certainly one that makes you wonder. My understanding of the DNA testing is that it will only pick up a breed if one of the parents was a purebred. Is this correct? For me DNA testing would only be justified if one of the possible parent breeds might have health issues which it would help to be aware of as early detection might be beneficial

[Wobbly]

My ff boy came via rescue. He was beautifully trained. He walked on a lead like a dream, knew heaps of commands and did as he was asked. He had (and has) the most divine personality.

Since adopting him I have successfully developed his 'evil' persona :laugh: So there!!!

:laugh:

Me too, my husband always says if I stopped encouraging bad habits he'd make an awesome dog out of her. He really takes issue with the fact that when I'm eating at the dinner table she settles down underneath the table in anticipation of the inevitable tid bits I pass on to her. But I consider this to have been be excellent training for taking her to cafes, he's wrong IMO, she's a great dog, especially in the way she sits quietly under cafe tables. XD

The breeding of your rescue dog is certainly one that makes you wonder. My understanding of the DNA testing is that it will only pick up a breed if one of the parents was a purebred. Is this correct? For me DNA testing would only be justified if one of the possible parent breeds might have health issues which it would help to be aware of as early detection might be beneficial

I know a few people who have had their dogs tested and the results didn't give them any clarification. I remember someone with a staffy cross who was wondering what else was in the dog got one done, and the results came back as staffy cross, which didn't really shed any light on the subject for her.

[voloclydes]

well some might remeber sophie being dumped on woodbyne on here.

she came complete with her sister and 2 brothers.

they were left in a walk in walk out stable yard.. all dogs were feed together and i presume sohpie had to fight and fight hard to get a feed. money was tight and the people told woodbyne they were loosing every thing, due to finiancial drama and a business going broke.

sophie acted like she had never had a feed in her life and was quite light in condition and looked like puppies had been recently weaned... ie large boobies and hippy and ribby. her first vet visit she weighed about 17.5kg... and had gained a bit at that stage.

she could eat a feed in about 20seconds, often coughing and choking as she never would chew... she would eat her own poop... often turning before she had finished. you never saw her wee... never. she still poos on concrete.

if another dog try to take her food, she will fight to the death. she came chipped which suprised every one... as there is no record of her being bred by an ankc breeder...

the older dog dumpped with them, died of breast cancer, and her 2 brothers had to pts due to temp issues.

when confronted at the gate she is very serious about killing the person on the other side, but has now gotten to the point of snuggling and seeking you out to get fusses.

she is my shadow, when before you could not catch her or even get your hands any where on her.

if something should touch her from behind like a piece of bark flicking up and just touching her flanks or rump... she will yelp... like beaten, suck her bum in and in the past wet her self, which i have always though meant as a timid dog she had been wacked.

the only behaviour i will explain to strangers is to be understanding about her barking, due to rescue issues, when they come to the house... and giving her time to come to them. that is more for the humans than the dog....

every thing else she is to adhere to the same standards of our other dogs... i expect her to learn... she is harder to teach... but i do expect her to learn.

the biggest suprise is she walks on a lead so lightly you never know she is there...better than leo who has no issues and was not truely a rescue...

[Staffyluv]

Nawim your post is great, I too have worried that Jarrah's former owner will see her and demand her back. Although I think I have a pretty strong case for keeping her given the fact that he left in the pound for an entire month. I remember a newb in the Amstaff piccys thread once asked me where I'd got Jarrah, that poster only had the one post on the entire forum, and I was so worried he was her old owner wanting her back. Probably wasn't, but I couldn't help worrying about it.

Genuine question:

Should training a dog that has bad breeding be different to a dog that has had little human contact or a dog that was beaten every time the previous owner looked at it?

Management & training would be on a case by case basis ofc. I do think your expectations as to how much you're going to be able to rehab the dog might differ tbh. I've seen some quite miraculous recoveries of dogs who've been beaten coming right out of their shells (it does seem to happen fairly often that dogs ARE mistreated a few of my friends' have had dogs who plainly had terrible histories), but I'm not sure you'd be able to get such dramatic recoveries with a genetically bad dog?

I think my favourite story of a dog who did the hard yards but recovered amazingly well was Little Leo the poodle, who many here will remember. Leo was bred by a member here called Sivaro, she found out he was being used interstate as breeding stock at a puppy mill, and after her frantic request for help for him here, another member called Ambervale rescued him. Leo was so terrified and beaten down when Ambervale first got him, but with her care he blossomed into a really happy, smiley little guy who led (and presumably continues to lead) a full life, not unduly affected by his previous rotten circumstances. I'll see if I can find the thread for anyone who's newer and hasn't read it, it used to be a sticky, it's a really amazing story and definitely worth the read.

Yes I remember Leo's story.. It was heartbreaking and then it turned around completely..

ETA I completely agree with HDW post about people blaming their rescue dogs bad behaviour on the fact that they are a rescue.

Also the point about it is often the trainer, not the dog...

Most of Ziggy's issues have been more, my issues and our wonderful trainer has helped us so much...

Edited November 18, 2012 by Staffyluv

[Greytmate]

Genuine question:

Should training a dog that has bad breeding be different to a dog that has had little human contact or a dog that was beaten every time the previous owner looked at it?

Genuine answer - how can you assume a dog was beaten every time it was looked at?

Behaviour modification is about modifying current behaviour. How can it be about anything else?

Management & training would be on a case by case basis ofc. I do think your expectations as to how much you're going to be able to rehab the dog might differ tbh. I've seen some quite miraculous recoveries of dogs who've been beaten coming right out of their shells (it does seem to happen fairly often that dogs ARE mistreated a few of my friends' have had dogs who plainly had terrible histories), but I'm not sure you'd be able to get such dramatic recoveries with a genetically bad dog?

Do you know the histories of these dogs, or are you just accepting the story you have been told that they did have a terrible history? If you describe something as miraculous, is it because you think a miracle has happened, or is it that you think the efforts that have gone into 'rehab' have been miraculous?

Expectations are a big factor, and those who choose to take home dogs with problems usually expect that they can solve that problem. The ones that don't expect the problem to be solvable usually will choose another dog. The expectations usually have no relation to how capable the new owner is, except where the owner is capable enough to know to avoid taking on that dog.

It can certainly hurt the "getting on with life" part. I'd not mind $10 for every time "he's a rescue" got trotted out in class as an excuse for poor behaviour or lack of progress in training. A fair bit of the time the training issue is at the other end of the leash.

Feeling sorry for your dog shouldn't be a convenient cop out or an excuse for not dealing with issues.

I think there are quite a few issues caused by lack of socialisation or timidity that get written off as "abused dog". Headshyness is one.

This is my experience too. Not only from when I instructed obedience, but from when I was rehoming dogs with known histories. Many people would tend to attribute problems to imagined history, rather that look at how they manage the dog themselves. They would often excuse behaviour or have trouble being firm, because they feel sorry for the dog because of an imagined sad history. They think the dog will appreciate this.

Anyone seeing our little Chi x would think she'd been terrorised within an inch of her life. Fact is, she was idolised by her previous owner, went everywhere with him, shared his toast and tea for breakfast, was his companion for 9 years. She came to us when he died. She is not comfortable with strangers hence her cowering and shaking. She is a different dog when it's family.

I would say that this might be the case for many people. Vets are still routinely telling clients not to take the dog out until 20 weeks vaccs, and so there are countless dogs who are happy with the familiar and scared of the unfamiliar - including the lovely new family that has just adopted it. But people don't tend to say "She was missing her old home so much, she was so frightened of me when I first met her, until she got used to me. " But you do hear " She was so abused in her old home that she was frightened of me when I first met her, and we had to do a lot to help her not be frightened. "

Of course it's unacceptable for people to not deal with issues in the here and now because of events that may have (or may not have) occurred in the past. In that direction lies only heartache, I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that people wondering about their dog's history will necessarily seek to excuse poor behaviour because of a dog's past experiences.

Yes, we can. Because it happens a lot. If you were the person they came to for help, you would see what some of us are saying.

We're human, it's our nature to wonder, to try to understand the whys & wherefores and discover all the missing pieces of a puzzle. I know for myself I often wonder about my dog's past, can't help it, it's my natural hardwired human inclination to wonder about the unknown.

This is so strong with some people they wouldn't buy a dog with unknown breeding, let alone an unknown history.

[Gertrude139]

I'm very new to rescue and have only had my boy for just over a month but his nervousness seems to be experience based since he will be ok with things like the vacuum, blender, coffee grinder, motorbikes and car horns but is scared of trucks. Also he has improved heaps since I have got him so I think they are learned reactions if that's the right term.

It hadn't occurred to me that people would use rescue as an excuse for bad behavior, I agree it is not an excuse. And that sucks because it could give other people a bad impression of rescue dogs in general.

I do know people who don't socialize their elderly rescue dogs with other dogs as they haven't been socialized in the past and don't know how to interact with other dogs. These dogs aren't aggressive more scared and unsure. I guess they make that decision as maybe it would stress the dog unnecessarily. Is that the type of thing that would be thought of as more of an excuse or do you think it is an appropriate way of dealing with the issue?

The behaviourist trainer i have thinks that once Salt is more settled most of his peculiar behaviors will disappear with the training we are doing, just keeping consistent is the key.

When I wonder about his history, it is just that - wondering. His behavior is what needs to be addressed not his history. I just feel it would be interesting to know.

[Greytmate]

I do know people who don't socialize their elderly rescue dogs with other dogs as they haven't been socialized in the past and don't know how to interact with other dogs. These dogs aren't aggressive more scared and unsure. I guess they make that decision as maybe it would stress the dog unnecessarily. Is that the type of thing that would be thought of as more of an excuse or do you think it is an appropriate way of dealing with the issue?

The important things for older dogs are exercise and the correct amount of stimulation. If a dog (rescue or not) doesn't particularly enjoy being around other dogs, then it shouldn't be continually put in situations where there are other dogs. If the owner lives in an environment where other dogs cannot be avoided when exercising (most suburbs), then they should think about getting help from a private trainer (not a club) to help desensitise their dog in a controlled way. So, yes, by not socialising their mature dog, these people are managing the dog correctly. Not all dogs, rescue or otherwise, enjoy being in a group of strange dogs.

[mixeduppup]

I'm not a rescue or a dog and I'm not fond of big social situations. I think we should respect that some dogs rescue or otherwise aren't dog dogs. As long as they're not outwardly aggressive then bygones shall be let to be just that

[Gertrude139]

I do know people who don't socialize their elderly rescue dogs with other dogs as they haven't been socialized in the past and don't know how to interact with other dogs. These dogs aren't aggressive more scared and unsure. I guess they make that decision as maybe it would stress the dog unnecessarily. Is that the type of thing that would be thought of as more of an excuse or do you think it is an appropriate way of dealing with the issue?

The important things for older dogs are exercise and the correct amount of stimulation. If a dog (rescue or not) doesn't particularly enjoy being around other dogs, then it shouldn't be continually put in situations where there are other dogs. If the owner lives in an environment where other dogs cannot be avoided when exercising (most suburbs), then they should think about getting help from a private trainer (not a club) to help desensitise their dog in a controlled way. So, yes, by not socialising their mature dog, these people are managing the dog correctly. Not all dogs, rescue or otherwise, enjoy being in a group of strange dogs.

Thanks, that's what I thought. They just walk them early in the morning when no one else is out and about so it doesn't have to see other dogs. I am lucky that dogs off leash are few and far between in my area.

[mixeduppup]

To know where you're going you have to first know where you came from.

My friend is a social worker for DOCS and uses that saying a lot. She says that to help the children overcome their issues, you need to know not only what their issues are but how they got them.

Dealing with the psychological instability as well as the physical manifestations of the issue/s will lead to a fuller recovery imho. A 'head in the sand' approach is never a good idea if you can avoid it. I want to understand my dog as well as I can. Not so I can jump in the sinking sand of her past with her, but so I can understand how she got there and the best way to pull her out so she never goes back again.

Just like with abused kids, neglected children do not develop the same as physically abused children, just as neglected dogs do not develop the same way as physically abused dogs. So their future recovery depends greatly on their past treatment.

It's as simple as acknowledging that it happened, trying to understand what happened by the dog's actions and then working on a psychological and physical level to change behaviours for good.

Edited November 18, 2012 by mixeduppup

[Salukifan]

Dealing with the psychological instability as well as the physical manifestations of the issue/s will lead to a fuller recovery imho. A 'head in the sand' approach is never a good idea if you can avoid it. I want to understand my dog as well as I can. Not so I can jump in the sinking sand of her past with her, but so I can understand how she got there and the best way to pull her out so she never goes back again.

Given that for many dogs, their pasts will never be known, I think its better to deal with the animal as you observe it and not to wonder or worry about what may have happened. Two dogs with the same genetic make up and the same history can still be quite different in many ways so I think its best to base any behaviour modification on what you see.

[mixeduppup]

Dealing with the psychological instability as well as the physical manifestations of the issue/s will lead to a fuller recovery imho. A 'head in the sand' approach is never a good idea if you can avoid it. I want to understand my dog as well as I can. Not so I can jump in the sinking sand of her past with her, but so I can understand how she got there and the best way to pull her out so she never goes back again.

Given that for many dogs, their pasts will never be known, I think its better to deal with the animal as you observe it and not to wonder or worry about what may have happened. Two dogs with the same genetic make up and the same history can still be quite different in many ways so I think its best to base any behaviour modification on what you see.

I guess you have a point. I have always been one to want to know and analyse every situation. It's the same with rescue dogs. I make an educated guess judging on where she was found, the type of vehicle and people she was attracted to, her working style, the way she responded to contact and stimulation and the type of gear she was found wearing. With all this information I was able to deduce with a good degree of certainty, her history and how she was raised. This has helped me personally to help her through some of her less desirable behaviours and she's a beautiful dog because of it. I understand that there is always going to be the dogs whose lineage and past remains a mystery but for me I prefer the approach of educated guessing as it's proven helpful in the past. Of course dogs are very "here and now" creatures, whereas humans tend to be "dwellers", so I acknowledge that either way could work.

Edited November 18, 2012 by mixeduppup

[Greytmate]

To know where you're going you have to first know where you came from.

My friend is a social worker for DOCS and uses that saying a lot. She says that to help the children overcome their issues, you need to know not only what their issues are but how they got them.

Dealing with the psychological instability as well as the physical manifestations of the issue/s will lead to a fuller recovery imho. A 'head in the sand' approach is never a good idea if you can avoid it. I want to understand my dog as well as I can. Not so I can jump in the sinking sand of her past with her, but so I can understand how she got there and the best way to pull her out so she never goes back again.

Just like with abused kids, neglected children do not develop the same as physically abused children, just as neglected dogs do not develop the same way as physically abused dogs. So their future recovery depends greatly on their past treatment.

It's as simple as acknowledging that it happened, trying to understand what happened by the dog's actions and then working on a psychological and physical level to change behaviours for good.

That is very anthropomorphic.

Understanding that current dog behaviour doesn't always give accurate clues about the way the dog has been treated in the past is not a 'head in the sand' approach. It's being realistic.

If you need to know a dog's history in order to fix its issues, buy one with a known history. Don't use your imagination, because imaginations tend to focus on nurture and gloss over the nature of the dog.

[persephone]

I think there are quite a few issues caused by lack of socialisation or timidity that get written off as "abused dog". Headshyness is one.

Some dogs are born with fear/nervousness , or boldness/aggression issues.

perhaps these things are why the dog was in a pound/rescue ? perhaps not.

I do agree with a lot of observed behaviour being nature and not nurture .

I like to know a bit about a 2nd hand car I buy , or a pre owned dog, or a pre owned gadget :) Doesn't mean I make excuses, just means that I then can learn what may have happened , and adapt my management style to what I have .

[mixeduppup]

To know where you're going you have to first know where you came from.

My friend is a social worker for DOCS and uses that saying a lot. She says that to help the children overcome their issues, you need to know not only what their issues are but how they got them.

Dealing with the psychological instability as well as the physical manifestations of the issue/s will lead to a fuller recovery imho. A 'head in the sand' approach is never a good idea if you can avoid it. I want to understand my dog as well as I can. Not so I can jump in the sinking sand of her past with her, but so I can understand how she got there and the best way to pull her out so she never goes back again.

Just like with abused kids, neglected children do not develop the same as physically abused children, just as neglected dogs do not develop the same way as physically abused dogs. So their future recovery depends greatly on their past treatment.

It's as simple as acknowledging that it happened, trying to understand what happened by the dog's actions and then working on a psychological and physical level to change behaviours for good.

That is very anthropomorphic.

Understanding that current dog behaviour doesn't always give accurate clues about the way the dog has been treated in the past is not a 'head in the sand' approach. It's being realistic.

If you need to know a dog's history in order to fix its issues, buy one with a known history. Don't use your imagination, because imaginations tend to focus on nurture and gloss over the nature of the dog.

I'm able to look at the dog as a project rather than something to nurture. I'm good at disassociating myself like that. It works for me but I understand it doesn't work for everyone and it's not right for everyone else. I'm just stating my personal experience with Maybe. :)

[schnauzer]

Very interesting thread. I have three rescue dogs, two ex puppy farm and a bitch we rescued when her owners dumped her in the pound for health issues last July.

I was given some advice years ago - once a dog is rescued he is no longer a "rescue dog".

My male was six years in a puppy farm and surrendered last year. He was frightened/timid of everything. I worked with him very slowly and he has adjusted brilliantly. He could not walk on a lead/would shake violently at everything and put the brakes on when he was scared. I have had him almost a year and his personality has bloomed and he is now an outgoing, confident boy. :)

[disintegratus]

I have often wondered about the pasts of some of ours, although I only ever use "he/she's a rescue" as an excuse for not knowing what breed they are:)

The rotti x Zehra is an odd one, picked up as a stray by the pound, she flinches, yelps and runs at brooms/sticks etc, but then so does Thundercleese whom we've had since a pup and never hit him with either. He's only ever been hit with a cricket bat (by accident by my partner's then 5-yo) and he's not scared of cricket bats.

Zehra I think has been well-loved in the past, she has always been very accustomed to sleeping inside, on beds and couches etc. She also has a nice trick of sneaking into the house very quietly, finding somewhere quiet and out of the way to sleep and not get noticed while the others are getting kicked out for causing havoc!! :laugh:

She is also scared of trucks even from far away, and of cars and other traffic when very close. I think she spent a bit of time on the streets, as she was skinny and grotty and unkempt when we got her.

Harley I know a little of his history, he used to belong to a friend of mine, who was, I would say fairly heavy-handed. Wouldn't beat him per say, but was short-tempered and not suited to a dog with such high energy (he's a dobe x kelpie)

The friend then moved away and left Harley with his grandmother (elderly woman even less suited to that kind of dog) and her dog, and old cattledog x. She went to live with a family member, they couldn't deal with Harley's exuberance, so he was re-homed. apparently that fell through, and somehow or other Harley ended up at Morwell pound. I went to pick him up, intending to hold onto him until we found him a home. 3 years later... :D

Harley is highly strung, and (a term I learned on this forum, and was grateful to find out that other dogs do it as well :D ) is very "sticky": he gets fixated on things. He will follow the cats around literally 2-3cm from their bums, but if they turn to face him, he runs away. He stares at my rat cage all night, but again, if confronted with a rat, he turns and runs. Luckily, the cats have gotten used to him, and the rats don't care one way or the other! Actually the other night I was watching him, and one of my boy rats was teasing him, and they were actually interacting with each other. It was very cute :)

He HATES walking on lead. Is well behaved, but spends the whole time with his tail down or between his legs. He's slightly better with a harness, but not great. He loves the idea of going for a walk, it's the part where he has to walk on lead that he hates. Unfortunately, now that he's getting older (he's going on 9 this year I think) he's starting to become "deaf", that is, he can no longer hear the word COME, so he's not allowed off the long line until his recall improves again.