Backyard Breeding

[Sam the man]

My BIL & SIL have an ACD/Blue Heeler? which more than likely came from a BYB. I'm not 100% sure of its parentage. She would probably be about 8 months old not desexed and recently seems she was on heat. Now it seems that my SIL wants her to have puppies.

Just one litter

I've already shown her an article about Backyard Breeding and how it can add to the hundreds of dogs in Pounds etc etc. The same article also is about registered breeders and how they go about the process. Okay you have one litter but then from that one litter how many pups are born as a result if any of those pups are sold to another BYB or worse they could end up on a puppy farm. What dog are they going to use for the mating? I'm sure no registered breeder would be in on it and it would be a very irresponsible dog owner who would allow their dog to be used. Just out of curiosity how much on average is a service?? fee?

I've also printed out a Yahoo topic "Is it true you should let a bitch have one litter" with all responses saying no and plenty about desexing and health issues. I haven't given that to them as yet because my BIL according to MIL said its their business what they do and I don't want to appear to be harassing them. He's the type of person who doesn't listen to reason and does his block. BTW MIL is dead against it too and she has told them this.

My SIL doesn't have any children and I think this litter business is to fulfill her mothering instincts. My BIL has made the comment "We could get $200 for a pup. :mad

What else can I do? Looking at that video which I think started off Oscar's Law has really made me angry and upset about the above issue.

[sheena]

They could get $200 a pup....they have to be joking. On a serious side, though, they could loose their beloved pet in the process

[Andisa]

You probably won't be able to change their mind but ask them what they are prepared to give up while the pups are so tiny. Remind them that an em c section can cost over $2000, they could lose the bitch and or the pups. They will need to be with the bitch all the time if they want to make sure none are neglected or squashed and remind them that puppies need round the clock care and feeding every hour or 2 when small. Do they know what to look out for if something goes wrong, the trouble doesn't end once the pups are born - so many things can still go wrong. No use showing them vet bills because they won't believe them anyway -

So on his thinking of making $200 per pup - say if she has 4 then he will get $800 for them but tell him to take out the expenses - possible c section, vaccinations, worming and microchipping and the extra food for mum and pups - also the amount of shit to clean up and extra washing.. ask him does he even know how much the basics will cost?

Some people won't listen to reason and need to learn the hard way, if all goes well they will probably have a few more, nothing you can do about it. If it turns to shit they probably won't bother again.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Andisa

[Staffyluv]

Ask in the breeders section for a quick run down on costs involved letting a bitch have a litter. Or hopefully someone who knows the costs might see your post and tell you how much each thing costs so you can show your family how much they could lose in breeding their little girl.

There may be supplements required for the girl, extra food and vet check.

Whelping box and extra blankets or bedding for the girl and pups once born.

C-section, as already suggested is possible.

Vaccinations and microchipping of each pup and or supplemtn feeding. How bad would it be if their girl didn't want to mother the pups and they had to do it...

The cost of the time to care, clean up.

The cost to advertise the post in the paper.

If she only ends up having one or two pups, they are going to be losing quite a bit of money...

[BlackJaq]

I'd say by the sound of them they would not be the kind of people to fork out for worming, vaccinations and chipping on the pups. I say this because if they did all that with their bitch an then timed it by 4 or 5 (whatever number pups they think they might get) they probably wouldn't get all jizzed up over $200 bucks a pup since that probably won't even cover it, especially by the time you buy food and throw out some things that they will pee on and chew to pieces. Hence showing them a list of expenses will make exactly zero impression.

Those kind of people do not expect to put ANY money into those pups. They will join the bitch, and wait to see what happens. Any pups they keep alive until sold will be extra cash in their pocket since they have no expenses.

I would ask them to come visit a pound or shelter with me, explain how most of those dogs were once one off litters and that most of those dogs will be dead in a week. Probably still won't make an impression but that's about the best thing I can come up with.

Edited November 17, 2012 by BlackJaq

[Salukifan]

Depending on what state they are in, it will be illegal to sell the pups without vaccination or microchipping.

In Victoria, they will be legally responsible for any inherited conditions the pups have.

If the BIL thinks there's money in ACD cross pups, he needs his head read.

[BlackJaq]

Depending on what state they are in, it will be illegal to sell the pups without vaccination or microchipping.

In Victoria, they will be legally responsible for any inherited conditions the pups have.

If the BIL thinks there's money in ACD cross pups, he needs his head read.

Maybe pointing out legal issues may give you some leverage then. I would also shamelessly dob them into the ranger to make sure they get the chipping and vaccinations done. That way they will at least get some financial punishment for being stubborn :p

Some people may object to this but I don't care :p :p

But let's be honest, almost every Joe Public thinks puppies will sell for money, no matter the breed or cross thereof. The general public are just hopelessly uninformed, right until they get stuck with 10-odd puppies of indeterminable breeding and dump them at their local pound. It happens every day and those people sometimes learn and don't breed again but for every one who learns there will be 20 first time "one off" breeders who have yet to learn that lesson.

[Salukifan]

They should also be shelling out to their Council for keeping their bitch entire.

[Sandra777]

There may be supplements required for the girl, extra food and vet check.

Thousands of bitches raise pups without any special food or even any extra food. I have never taken a bitch for a vet check after whelping, I can hardly complain if someone else doesn't either - even though it's highly probable they wouldn't know when they actually do need to.

Whelping box and extra blankets or bedding for the girl and pups once born.

A kennel works fine for those same thousands of bitches - or a plastic 'basket' type bed - or a plastic kids paddling pool. Newspaper is free, many pups are raised on bare boards/plastic.

Vaccinations and microchipping of each pup

How many pups are sold/given away in Australia each year without vaccination, microchipping or even basic worming? Even in Victoria where it's illegal?

C-section, as already suggested is possible. and or supplemtn feeding. How bad would it be if their girl didn't want to mother the pups and they had to do it...

Now you get in to the arguments that actually hurt the pocket :laugh:

The last caesar I paid for was $1100 at 6pm on a Sunday. I was prepared before hand though and got this at a 'regular hours' rate and not at an emergency clinic - AFAIK afterhours and emergency clinic = double this no problem at all.

If she won't feed the pups, in this sceanario I would assume the pups would die or OP would be back trying to find a foster mother.... I have had to handraise ONE puppy on one occasion, and that was only for 3 days until we found a foster mum (god bless BYB's and their labradors) - I cannot comprehend the work involved with handraising a whole litter all the way through and am humbled by anyone who has actually done it.

The dangers few think about are things such as mastitis which can come up rapidly and can be very expensive to treat, plus often means the pups need to be handraised & fading puppy syndrome which cuts in to the profit something terrible

If they pay a $200 stud fee for the neighbour-down-the-road's 'blue healer' :) the bitch has 5 or 6 pups with absolutely no problems at all they could well stand to make a small profit assuming they don't count their own time and effort (no matter how small)

6 pups @ $200 $1,200

Stud Fee $200

3 x 20kg bags of Bonnie for the bitch $120

1 x 20kg bag of Bonnie for the pups $ 40

Vaccination @ $60 per pup (can be more or less) $360

Microchipping @ $60 per pup (can be more or less) $360

Worm Pills - 4 for each pup (over the 8 weeks)@ $3ea $ 72

- 2 for the bitch x 4 doses @ $3 $ 24

Advertise on Gumtree - free

Advertise on Trading Post $ 20 ?

Total costs $1176

Net Profit $24 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Even if you assume you were going to feed the bitch one bag of food during that time whether she had pups or not it's still only a $80 'saving' - $104 profit.

Without vaccinating or worming or microchipping ------- now then it becomes a bit more profitable!

But the question needs to be asked - do they have a suitable enclosure to confine the pups once they get mobile - are they house/garden proud? Do they have any idea how much destruction 5 or 6 puppies can do, to say nothing of the poo..........

[BlackJaq]

Yes, assuming they didn't chip and register their entire bitch already I would start here. Alert the council to the fact that they are missing out on the exorbitant registration fee of an entire bitch. Once the council are onto them maybe they will do the maths and realize how much chipping + reg alone will cost them as they shouldn't get away with not doing it if the council are aware of what they are doing.

Seriously though Sandra, you are making way too much sense here! Can we just skip ahead to cute puppy pictures please? lol

Edited November 17, 2012 by BlackJaq

[Andisa]

Last year I had a phone call from a bloke who own a purebred pug on limited papers who wanted to mate their dog with my bitch because they liked the look of her...and told me I can keep the pups and he only wanted 2 pups in return for the stud fee - was an interesting conversation and I assured him that I was not at all interested. He kept going on about how well bred his dog is (great bloodlines - but on limited papers) so I told him it could be THE best dog in the country but with out full registration his dog is absolutely no use to me. He sent me emails with pics of his dog even after I kept telling him I was not interested and I doubt he would find anyone who is - he asked about buying a bitch from my next litter and I told him I won't have one for ages and when I do they will be leaving desexed for this very reason.

If this is how the average person thinks - we have a very long way to go about educating the general public.

[Wobbly]

I would suggest you take them to the local pound so they can see the reality of their pups likely fate, but that probably isn't practical.

Alternative may be to print out a couple of the pound lists from the "Urgent Rescues" section here, and show your SIL & BIL that. Point out to them the vast majority of these dogs will be put to sleep due to lack of homes, and that this is the most likely outcome for any pups they produce.

Seeing the dogs' faces in those pound pics, and knowing they will die is very sobering, probably even for idiots like your BIL & SIL. If your own local pound isn't there, Blacktown pound is probably a good candidate for printing out, it's currently filled to capacity, so many of those dogs you see in there now will be PTS. Make sure they're made aware of that. Here is the link: http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/243430-blacktown-pound-week-beginning-12112012/

Show them that.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Wobbly

[dancinbcs]

Apart from the fact that it will cost them a minimum of $200 per puppy to raise them, what are they going to do when they can't sell them? Unregistered Cattle Dogs, like Staffies are a dime a dozen, there are plenty in pounds and they are not popular as pets. They don't just magically sell at 8 weeks because you want them to. They might sell one or two but what if they have 8 or 10? Are they prepared to keep and feed the rest until they find homes, which could take months?

They cannot use a registered stud dog unless they are breeding genuine working dogs and in that case the stud fee would be around $800 at least.

[WreckitWhippet]

I wish them a 3am c-section on a public holiday. They might breed once but they'll never do it again

[sheena]

I would suggest you take them to the local pound so they can see the reality of their pups likely fate, but that probably isn't practical.

Alternative may be to print out a couple of the pound lists from the "Urgent Rescues" section here, and show your SIL & BIL that. Point out to them the vast majority of these dogs will be put to sleep due to lack of homes, and that this is the most likely outcome for any pups they produce.

Seeing the dogs' faces in those pound pics, and knowing they will die is very sobering, probably even for idiots like your BIL & SIL. If your own local pound isn't there, Blacktown pound is probably a good candidate for printing out, it's currently filled to capacity, so many of those dogs you see in there now will be PTS. Make sure they're made aware of that. Here is the link: http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/243430-blacktown-pound-week-beginning-12112012/

Show them that.

OMG...the number of Staffies & Staffy X's on that page is appauling I only looked at a couple of pages

[Wobbly]

I know Sheena, I often find myself checking that particular pound because it's where I got my dog. The amount of dogs in there is horrifying, especially lately.

I would encourage anyone who thinks BYB is a good thing to take a look at that pound. It's irrefutable evidence of the fact that there just isn't enough homes for the amount of dogs being bred.

[Staffyluv]

There may be supplements required for the girl, extra food and vet check.

Thousands of bitches raise pups without any special food or even any extra food. I have never taken a bitch for a vet check after whelping, I can hardly complain if someone else doesn't either - even though it's highly probable they wouldn't know when they actually do need to.

Whelping box and extra blankets or bedding for the girl and pups once born.

A kennel works fine for those same thousands of bitches - or a plastic 'basket' type bed - or a plastic kids paddling pool. Newspaper is free, many pups are raised on bare boards/plastic.

Vaccinations and microchipping of each pup

How many pups are sold/given away in Australia each year without vaccination, microchipping or even basic worming? Even in Victoria where it's illegal?

C-section, as already suggested is possible. and or supplemtn feeding. How bad would it be if their girl didn't want to mother the pups and they had to do it...

Now you get in to the arguments that actually hurt the pocket :laugh:

The last caesar I paid for was $1100 at 6pm on a Sunday. I was prepared before hand though and got this at a 'regular hours' rate and not at an emergency clinic - AFAIK afterhours and emergency clinic = double this no problem at all.

If she won't feed the pups, in this sceanario I would assume the pups would die or OP would be back trying to find a foster mother.... I have had to handraise ONE puppy on one occasion, and that was only for 3 days until we found a foster mum (god bless BYB's and their labradors) - I cannot comprehend the work involved with handraising a whole litter all the way through and am humbled by anyone who has actually done it.

The dangers few think about are things such as mastitis which can come up rapidly and can be very expensive to treat, plus often means the pups need to be handraised & fading puppy syndrome which cuts in to the profit something terrible

If they pay a $200 stud fee for the neighbour-down-the-road's 'blue healer' :) the bitch has 5 or 6 pups with absolutely no problems at all they could well stand to make a small profit assuming they don't count their own time and effort (no matter how small)

6 pups @ $200 $1,200

Stud Fee $200

3 x 20kg bags of Bonnie for the bitch $120

1 x 20kg bag of Bonnie for the pups $ 40

Vaccination @ $60 per pup (can be more or less) $360

Microchipping @ $60 per pup (can be more or less) $360

Worm Pills - 4 for each pup (over the 8 weeks)@ $3ea $ 72

- 2 for the bitch x 4 doses @ $3 $ 24

Advertise on Gumtree - free

Advertise on Trading Post $ 20 ?

Total costs $1176

Net Profit $24 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Even if you assume you were going to feed the bitch one bag of food during that time whether she had pups or not it's still only a $80 'saving' - $104 profit.

Without vaccinating or worming or microchipping ------- now then it becomes a bit more profitable!

But the question needs to be asked - do they have a suitable enclosure to confine the pups once they get mobile - are they house/garden proud? Do they have any idea how much destruction 5 or 6 puppies can do, to say nothing of the poo..........

Thanks for that Sandra. I was hoping someone would give an indication of what it could cost.

I realise not everything I suggested is needed but sometimes you can make it sound like it is needed to some people..

I have convinced someone before with telling them what they could be in for, without suggesting anything other than, imagine if she needed a c-section that cost a couple of grand and you only ended up with two pups to sell.. Just so she can have a litter, it cost you that much!

They booked their staffy in to be desexed the next week...

Hopefully the OP can scare some sense into their family.

[sheena]

I know Sheena, I often find myself checking that particular pound because it's where I got my dog. The amount of dogs in there is horrifying, especially lately.

I would encourage anyone who thinks BYB is a good thing to take a look at that pound. It's irrefutable evidence of the fact that there just isn't enough homes for the amount of dogs being bred.

I shouldn't be surprised ....the number of people breeding staffies ATM is astounding. It seems everytime someone says to me "I am getting a puppy"...9 times out of 10 it is a Staffy & never any mention of reputable breeders. I have to bite my tounge & walk away, otherwise I get myself into all sorts of trouble...the same with people getting oodles

[Sandra777]

I realise not everything I suggested is needed but sometimes you can make it sound like it is needed to some people..

Problem with that I've always found is that their best-mates'-partners-best-friend's-brother-in-law's-cousin is a breeder so "knows all about it" and if you tell them they must have a whelping box and feed the bitch expensive (read decent!) food they always know that it's 'not necessary' so they ignore the bits of information that actually ARE essential - like the dream that anyone can make money breeding dogs (except "blue english staffy" breeders of course )

I have convinced someone before with telling them what they could be in for, without suggesting anything other than, imagine if she needed a c-section that cost a couple of grand and you only ended up with two pups to sell.. Just so she can have a litter, it cost you that much!

Yep - that one usually takes the wind out of their sails :laugh:

They booked their staffy in to be desexed the next week...

:thumbsup: Good work!!! :)

[Wobbly]

If they do insist on breeding the dog, ask them to give you the details of where every pup went, so in 8-12 months time (when they stiop being so puppy cute & start getting dumped) you can let them know how many of the litter ended up at the pound, and how many were euthed for lack of homes. Might put them off breeding in future at least....