itsadogslife Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 By the way, just to avoid confusion - as I think almost all discussion here seem to be discussed through the prism of competition - I have no interest in competition for competition sake. Many of the behaviors seen in competition these days, whilst impressive if trained well, hold no interest to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) By the way, just to avoid confusion - as I think almost all discussion here seem to be discussed through the prism of competition - I have no interest in competition for competition sake. Many of the behaviors seen in competition these days, whilst impressive if trained well, hold no interest to me. Understandable - which is why I clarified that I train for competition. Which is also why I like to see dogs in action before I put much stead in titles! Now, my Springer's close relatives are valued for the huge value they have for scenting/hunting and 'work' in the real world. Teach them what you want and they will do it all darn day! The working Labs are the same. But most of us have pet dogs who we enjoy competing with - many of whom aren't "ideal" for the chosen sport but enjoy it nonetheless. Sorry for the continual OTs but I have enjoyed my train trip home :D Edited November 15, 2012 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 By the way, just to avoid confusion - as I think almost all discussion here seem to be discussed through the prism of competition - I have no interest in competition for competition sake. Many of the behaviors seen in competition these days, whilst impressive if trained well, hold no interest to me. That is fine for you not to be interested in competition, but some of us are. And as TSD has pointed out, competitions are stylised, and some people enjoy the challenge of getting precision, speed, independence, whatever it is that makes that sport a challenge, and for this extrinsic rewards are very useful. I think TSD gave a perfect example, when looking at a dog that will retrieve a ball and drop it at your feet for you to throw again and comparing to what someone wants in a competition retrieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Ever tried taking one to a trial? Where there's stock and other dogs working all day and they only get one or two 10 minute runs :/ Learning a bit of self-control and the value of other rewards in the presence of stock is merciful to everyone within earshot. Sorry, I don't really see the relevance. Are you saying sheepdog herders would do better if herding wasn't so intrinsically rewarding to the dogs? Sorry I was typing on my phone so that was a bit vague. I was just thinking it can be very handy to have a variety of reinforcers and not have one be extreme in value relative to the others. A herding dog is always going to love to work, but teaching them to recall away from stock, teaching "that'll do" and teaching them to be distracted/relax when it's not their turn are all made much easier when you have other reinforcers of similar value at hand. Also I don't always want them to have the 'herding switch' in their brain turned on when I'm trying to teach them stuff, so having them work for food around stock is also useful (for e.g. learning to heel past stock so the stock don't break their position) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsadogslife Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 That is fine for you not to be interested in competition, but some of us are. And as TSD has pointed out, competitions are stylised, and some people enjoy the challenge of getting precision, speed, independence, whatever it is that makes that sport a challenge, and for this extrinsic rewards are very useful. I'm sorry, but I do not follow the way in which people are responding to me. Of course extrinsic reinforcement is useful, I use it all the time in my training. I don't know anyone who doesn't. My point was that a dog that cannot maintain a behavior without extrinsic reward is nether trained nor 'loving' what he is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 The turning point for me was when we found a way to get her to hold it long enough for me to click. All it took was light encouragement (pinky finger under her chin) and voila. So stick with it!!! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 That is fine for you not to be interested in competition, but some of us are. And as TSD has pointed out, competitions are stylised, and some people enjoy the challenge of getting precision, speed, independence, whatever it is that makes that sport a challenge, and for this extrinsic rewards are very useful. I'm sorry, but I do not follow the way in which people are responding to me. Of course extrinsic reinforcement is useful, I use it all the time in my training. I don't know anyone who doesn't. My point was that a dog that cannot maintain a behavior without extrinsic reward is nether trained nor 'loving' what he is doing. Susan Garrett says something along the lines of a behaviour never stays the same. With some behaviours it can be easy to lose specific aspects if they are not reinforced. I am doing an online course on stopped 2on2off contacts with a nose touch at the moment. It has been made clear just how easy it is to lose the nose touch if you are not careful, and that you will need to continue to reinforce it if you want to keep it. That is because once the dog gets excited and loves agility, he would prefer to continue on and do the next obstacle than the specific behaviour of the nose touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Posted by Wuffles My dog is NOT a natural retriever at all :laugh: It took me 6 months to train her formal retrieve and TSD and others were telling me eventually she would learn to love it, and I didn't believe them... but she did :laugh: It is something she loves because it's been so highly rewarded, and once her reward rate for it drops she starts to lose interest again. I have to make sure I don't overdo the training (2-3 retrieves in one session is her limit) and still play lots of 'grab the dumbbell' games to build its value. I am sorry in advance if I give offense, I'm really not meaning to, but I find the above to be rather confusing. A dog that loves retrieving is not the sort of dog that needs constant reward. If your dog is losing interest in retrieving once the reward rate starts to drop then I can't see how it is the retrieving that he loves. My own dog, a Kelpie to whom I have only informally trained the retrieve, would literally run himself into the ground before he stopped retrieving the ball, or any other object I threw. I have never rewarded this behavior at all - other than to throw the ball. This is not meant as a brag on my training skills or method - I actually did very little in the way of teaching the retrieve - it is simply a observation on the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic reward. For my own dog retrieving is intrinsically rewarding hence there is no need to reward the behavior other than throwing the ball. A dog that needs a constant rate of extrinsic reward in order maintain its behavior is not a dog that I would say "loves" what he is doing. Didn't see this until now :) You're right - my dog doesn't love retrieving in itself but I'm not sure why you would think that's what I meant. I admitted she's not a natural retriever. However, my dog DOES love training, she loves rewards, she loves working with me. The retrieve is a way for her to earn what she wants, so she does it. Not sure if that's too hard to understand? Others seem to have answered your questions anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsadogslife Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Susan Garrett says something along the lines of a behaviour never stays the same. Most trained behaviors require the occasional reinforcement (or correction). But again, behavior that requires constant reinforcement is neither intrinsically rewarding nor trained. It may well be counter-productive to train behaviors for agility to the same level of reliability as for obedience, i don't know. I do know that sheepdog herders will often repeat commands to their dog as the nature of their work is fluid and always changing - agility may well be similar. It doesn't change my position however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Also just to add my dog never gets corrections, ever. So reinforcing her behaviour is particularly important to me :) (Don't want to get into the positive/negative debate, I don't care what other people want to do) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) Kenz has always done a formal retrieve for the chance to do it again . The first time I threw a DB she raced out after it bought it back and gave me a perfect present. Rinse and repeat. Yep she will take a tug if presented with but honestly I would be kidding myself if I believed she was taking it as a reward. The retrieve behavior would not diminish if I stopped "rewarding" with a tug. Edited November 15, 2012 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allywil Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Posted by Wuffles My dog is NOT a natural retriever at all :laugh: It took me 6 months to train her formal retrieve and TSD and others were telling me eventually she would learn to love it, and I didn't believe them... but she did :laugh: It is something she loves because it's been so highly rewarded, and once her reward rate for it drops she starts to lose interest again. I have to make sure I don't overdo the training (2-3 retrieves in one session is her limit) and still play lots of 'grab the dumbbell' games to build its value. I am sorry in advance if I give offense, I'm really not meaning to, but I find the above to be rather confusing. A dog that loves retrieving is not the sort of dog that needs constant reward. If your dog is losing interest in retrieving once the reward rate starts to drop then I can't see how it is the retrieving that he loves. My own dog, a Kelpie to whom I have only informally trained the retrieve, would literally run himself into the ground before he stopped retrieving the ball, or any other object I threw. I have never rewarded this behavior at all - other than to throw the ball. This is not meant as a brag on my training skills or method - I actually did very little in the way of teaching the retrieve - it is simply a observation on the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic reward. For my own dog retrieving is intrinsically rewarding hence there is no need to reward the behavior other than throwing the ball. A dog that needs a constant rate of extrinsic reward in order maintain its behavior is not a dog that I would say "loves" what he is doing. Itsadogslife, I agree with your viewpoint and for people who enjoy training dogs I always recommend just once in their lives to buy a performance bred dog as there is such a massive difference in the response to all the these basic behaviours. Having said that, training a dog that's not so inherited with natural trait makes a great foundation of knowledge to train a more gifted dog in the future. My youngest dog and I must admit that I have never had a dog as good at retrieve as this boy, but at 8 weeks old in a litter test he worked out that if he dropped the little ball were playing with I would roll it along the ground and he could chase it........the only one in the litter who would bring it back. Retrieve was pure trait in this dog and I have never actually trained it, he just does it instictively. My older dog, same breed, still doesn't retrieve half as well as the young one after countless hours of training, much of these behaviours we seek and put down to training results are in the dog it's self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Running after a ball isn't really retrieving though - it is prey drive. Formal retrieving is a very different beast. My dog too can run after a ball and being it straight back to me - not something I trained. That doesn't mean he can get a dumbbell that is static, bring it back to me, sit 100% straight in front of me, right up close, wait, drop it in my hand when I tell him to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiesha09 Posted November 15, 2012 Author Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) A bit of an update from our training session last night. We started working on a nice and tight front... turns out she really doesn't like sitting too close - more like a foot away, so definately something to work on there I also tried shaping both the dogs to pick up th item and then touch my hand. Chip (who can already retrieve) got it straight away - he'll hold the item and touch. Kiesha will pick up the item and as she goes to touch my hand she drops it at the same time. So whilst she isn't holding it and touching my hand at least she isn't flinging it in the opposite direction Edited to add - as soon as I posted this I realised I think I should go back a step, not worry about picking it up from the floor and touching my hand but instead I should put it in her mouth and get her to touch. So whilst she doesn't have the touch and hold yet I feel like we made positive progress by not flinging. Every journey starts with one step forward :D Edited November 15, 2012 by kiesha09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Great work! Some dogs don't like being crowded so you might need to build lots of value for a tight front. Try going back a step. Sit on the ground with your legs apart and get your dog to fly in fast and collect the treat at your chest - just make it like a silly game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiesha09 Posted November 15, 2012 Author Share Posted November 15, 2012 Great work! Some dogs don't like being crowded so you might need to build lots of value for a tight front. Try going back a step. Sit on the ground with your legs apart and get your dog to fly in fast and collect the treat at your chest - just make it like a silly game! Yep this is her - she is such a soft dog and has a big 'thing' about being stepped on. She always sits about 1 step away from me so she's out of the way, so sitting on the floor is a perfect step back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allywil Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Running after a ball isn't really retrieving though - it is prey drive. Formal retrieving is a very different beast. My dog too can run after a ball and being it straight back to me - not something I trained. That doesn't mean he can get a dumbbell that is static, bring it back to me, sit 100% straight in front of me, right up close, wait, drop it in my hand when I tell him to! I have always found the dog will instictively either bring an item back in prey or run off with it in the opposite direction and the one's who instictively bring it back to the handler are easier to train a formal retrieve. The Schutzhund retrieve is the only one I am familiar with and trained by throwing the dumbell for the dog to bring it back as the basic manouver...........I am not sure of other retrieves in sports, but my dog picks up the dumbell ok from a static position, bit like many dogs on command will retrieve a ball if you tell them "get your ball" they will race off hunt for it around the house and bring it back, all similiar basics I think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Running after a ball isn't really retrieving though - it is prey drive. Formal retrieving is a very different beast. My dog too can run after a ball and being it straight back to me - not something I trained. That doesn't mean he can get a dumbbell that is static, bring it back to me, sit 100% straight in front of me, right up close, wait, drop it in my hand when I tell him to! I have always found the dog will instictively either bring an item back in prey or run off with it in the opposite direction and the one's who instictively bring it back to the handler are easier to train a formal retrieve. The Schutzhund retrieve is the only one I am familiar with and trained by throwing the dumbell for the dog to bring it back as the basic manouver...........I am not sure of other retrieves in sports, but my dog picks up the dumbell ok from a static position, bit like many dogs on command will retrieve a ball if you tell them "get your ball" they will race off hunt for it around the house and bring it back, all similiar basics I think? The book on Schutzhund I have starts with a hold and then backchains the retrieve (though not using shaping which is the method I use). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 The OP's dog does this though, but flings it at the owner when she returns. Kiesha - uta bindel trains a tight front by sitting in a chair, leaning bank and luring the dog to sit right at your knees. Do this separately from the retreive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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