kiesha09 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I've been teaching my girl a retrieve on an off for a LONG time now (too embarassed to say how long!!) and she just doesn't get it. I'm sure its more an issue with the way I'm teaching it but I just don't know where to go from here (I think I've even started threads on this before and I'm still stuck!). But this time I'm determined to teach it until she gets it. I taught my boy using the Shirley Chong method and he is great at it. I've tried the same method with my girl but I've obviously rewarded the wrong thing somewhere along the line because she thinks that she needs to pick up the item and rather than put it in my hand she throws it (generally in the opposite direction away from me :laugh: ). So I backtracked even further and started holding the item and getting her to put her mouth on it. Yep all good she puts her mouth on it but she still tries to grab it and fling it. She's still trying to move the object 'away' from me rather than 'towards' my hand. So... any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Is she clicker trained? As she bites in, cluck, and she should drop it to get the treat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiesha09 Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 Yep she's clicker trained and thats how we've been teaching it. Megan you could be right I may need to click even earlier... I have been trying to click the second her teeth touch the item but I click as she bites and instead of dropping it she does the pull and fling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 My girl flung it for aaaaaages too. To be honest though I don't remember how I fixed it If you hold it, let her grab it and reward before she flings (keep your hands on it). Then just lighten your grip and try again - if she tries to fling put a bit of pressure back on it, she should grab it again and click that. I think it's all in the timing - and if you keep control of it you should be able to stop her and instead get a longer hold. Then you can build up moving your hands away. Maybe? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Try teaching her a chin target and then reintroduce a retrieve. It may help with the moving backwards otherwise reward placement in front of the dowel (DB bar) to encourage her to come forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiesha09 Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 Wuffles what you have said is exactly what I've been trying to do - so much easier said than done with this girl :laugh: Thank you for your suggestions. Ness thanks for your suggestion too - I think the chin target and rewarding in front of the dowel could help.... I actually think the moving backwards is key here. If I can encourage forward movement it should stop the fling - perhaps she could at least fling it towards me :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlc Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Hey Guys I don't want to come in here and be a downer but does anyone believe that some dogs are just not made for or meant to retrieve? My oldest I didnt bother much with, he will pick things up bring them to me only wanting to be chased and retieved well enough to be able to pass a few classes in obedience. My second girl, I worked with her on retrieving for months and no matter what I did she just was not interested. My third girl is just awesome at retrieving and was from the minute she got here, throw anything and she will bring it back, she will bring it, hold it, drop it, the lot! My youngest is average and I never pushed it with him as we didn't advance to a higher level in obedience and we changed obedience places and it wasn't something he was required to do. So I guess my question do some dogs just have 'it' in them? and some really have to work at being taught to retrieve? IS it posible that some will just never do it? Or did I just give up to easily? :laugh: I don't feel I did I really tried but when Tully came along and was a natural I realized I was fighting an uphill battle with Lacy, she wasn't enjoying the battle and neither was I so I let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 It's amazing what you inadvertently teach! I had to fix Em's weaves tonight - I hadn't realised how much she relied on my position so used 4 poles, some inginuity and the BRILLIANT Ready Treat from Clean Run. In addition to other suggestions what about getting her to sit in front? She cannot fling if she is sitting still - so the criteria becomes sitting still and sniffing the article etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) tlc - my Dally HATED retrieving and HATED tugging. Now they are two of his favourite things but gosh he was a tough nut to crack! It's so amazing now to have a breed who lives to retrieve and I never take it for granted! I did work through it with Zig - partly for the challenge (really kept the training light though) but also so that he learned to accept whatever reward I chose. Not what he wanted. I think it was at that point that our trialling relationship went through the roof although I continue to use rewards very creatively. Em is just happy with a nose touch :laugh: Should also add that I did shape the retrieve with Em anyway - although it took about 5 mins! It helped so much when her delivery went awry down the track. Another edit! I'm going to start shaping the pup this week too - he's about 17 weeks. Edited November 14, 2012 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiesha09 Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 It's amazing what you inadvertently teach! I had to fix Em's weaves tonight - I hadn't realised how much she relied on my position so used 4 poles, some inginuity and the BRILLIANT Ready Treat from Clean Run. In addition to other suggestions what about getting her to sit in front? She cannot fling if she is sitting still - so the criteria becomes sitting still and sniffing the article etc. You are so right TSD it is amazing what you inadvertently teach!!! She takes everything so 'literally' as well :laugh: Even when she is sitting in front of me she still flicks it just by moving her head. Maybe she needs to be sitting further away from me so she can't flick and have her mouth on it at the same time. TLC as for whether some dogs are just not made to retrieve I think you can condition them to love it. My boy was not interested at all in retrieving but once I back chained it using his favourite reward (chicken necks) he now loves it. Actually he still probably loves the reward for the retrieve the most but I do think eventually the reward will become self-rewarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 My dog is NOT a natural retriever at all :laugh: It took me 6 months to train her formal retrieve and TSD and others were telling me eventually she would learn to love it, and I didn't believe them... but she did :laugh: It is something she loves because it's been so highly rewarded, and once her reward rate for it drops she starts to lose interest again. I have to make sure I don't overdo the training (2-3 retrieves in one session is her limit) and still play lots of 'grab the dumbbell' games to build its value. Every time I teach her to retrieve a different object I need to go right back to the start and build its value before even attempting a retrieve. And she still doesn't have a reliable "informal" retrieve. She likes the chasing but not the bringing back part. Also TSD they can certainly still fling it if sitting still Or maybe Ava is just spethul in that regard. Those things HURT when they hit your shin at speed!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiesha09 Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 Also TSD they can certainly still fling it if sitting still Or maybe Ava is just spethul in that regard. Those things HURT when they hit your shin at speed!!! I like to think of it as a very spethul skill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipsqueak Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Also TSD they can certainly still fling it if sitting still Or maybe Ava is just spethul in that regard. Those things HURT when they hit your shin at speed!!! Nope, another one here (with a sighthound mix) who is more than capable of flinging whilst sitting. And yes, they definitely hurt when they hit your shin... or elbow or chin. I cannot believe how fast our girl is at flinging sometimes. Another one here with the same problem, who has pretty much given up on ever being able to teach our girl to retrieve. At this stage, I would honestly settle for a hold for a nano-second, so I could actually click and reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlc Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Well perhaps I gave up with Lacy too early! She's brilliant at obedience and retrieving was the only thing she didn't excel at. When it became a battle for her and me I just gave it up. TSD, I didn't realise you had a new puppy, what sort? Photos? I know they are probly on DOL somewhere and I've missed them! Edited November 14, 2012 by tlc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlc Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Oh another thing I'd forgotten, I mentioned to Tully's (the one who does retrieve ) breeder about her natural ability to retrieve and that she is ball mad and she said her mother is exactly the same, surely something like that is not inherited? Just thought that was interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I also had the flinging problem with Diesel for a while - and yes they can fling while sitting :laugh: I can't remember what I did to fix it sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) What is it with these dogs that fling??? wuffles, you know Ziggy thinks your Ava is VERY special indeed tlc - he's an ESS puppy on loan for training and socialsing - he needs more of the former and less of the latter - wants to be everybody's new best friend :laugh: Check out the retrieve on him! Oh and the propensity for box shredding :laugh: Absolutely it's genetic - this pup has to carry something everywhere, even when he toilets! Otherwise why else would we have gundogs! Edited November 14, 2012 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlc Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Awe he is so cute! My original dog trainer had an ESS, he was the smartest dog and picked up new things so easily. Even at an old age and nearly blind he still fronted up with her to training and did demos. Beautiful dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 kiesha09 - ok, another idea, presuming you've patterned and rewarded the dog into repeating the "wrong" behaviour. Have you tried changing your position, location and retrieve item? Sometimes if Zig got "stuck" I'd sit on the floor in the hallway with him and shape with his dinner. Or sit in a chair. Or sit outside. And shape using lots of different objects before he got one perfectly. I think this helps because they can be very specific about behaviours - when you change "the picture" it opens up other options for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) *gremlins* Edited November 14, 2012 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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