leopuppy04 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Wanted some advice please :) Kinta, mother to Zara had the following patterns with her two litters: First litter - 2009 Day 58 - 1/2 degree drop, then next 48 hrs no signs of labor etc. Her drop was low enough to say 'whelping is iminent' as per the chart. When I rang the vet and breeder they weren't worried as they felt the drop wasn't significant enough. I took her for a prog anyway - results were at 5.5 and we opted to do a C-section on day 60. She never showed any signs of labor. Second litter -2012 Day 58 - 1/2 degree drop, next 48 hrs slighly restless but no signs of labor. Under vet advice, I had booked her in on day 60 for a preliminary prog to see what was happening. That morning, her temp dropped a full deg-deg and a half. I took her to the vet anyway, and thought the prog would indicate imininant whelping that evening. Prog levels came back at 5.0 and under vet advice we did a c-section. She never showed any other signs of labor - but I do wonder what would have happened if we let her go until that night. Breeders notes: *No intertia in the lines *her bitches seldom nest and go straight to late stages of labor and begin to have puppies shortly after that. *In both litters (of 6 and 5) for Kinta, no puppies were lost, the first litter she was riddled with infection and uterus was very messy, 2nd litter uterus clean and the pregnancy was problem free. My question is... what would I do for her daughter zara? If I get a 1/2 degree drop and no action, should I take her for a prog (knowing it almost definitely means a cesarian, but the likelihood of healthy babies...), do I wait her out and hope for the 'bigger' drop... At the back of my mind are all those horror stories where the breeders have left it too long and lost the whole litter... would really appreciate some thoughts/ advice :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldielover Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) LP: Did you prog test when you mated Zara (ie. do you know when she ovulated?) 0.5 a degree isn't that much. I usually take the 'temp drop' to be almost a full degree (and it can go up and down). However generally when the temp is 36.8 or 36.9 you will have pups in 12 to 24 hours. If you are over 63 days post-ovulation and nothing happens, that's when i'd be going for a check up with the vet. A little more difficult if you're not sure when she ovulated. With no inertia in the lines i wouldn't be too concerned. Other than a temp drop, Izzy really gave me very little indication that she was going to whelp - it was a bit of a surprise, but we were prepared as we caught the temp drop. No panting, shivering, etc. Just checked my records from Izzy's whelping last week and at the highest point her temp was 38. It dropped to 37.5 several times including 6 days before she was due! Her temp was 36.8 at 6am on the 6th and she started to deliver her pups at 9pm that day. I would take her temp at least twice a day from a week before she is due, and about 3 days before, i'd take it more frequently (i usually do 4 times a day) so as not to miss the drop ETA. Also, you can always run up the road for a quick ultrasound if you are concerned. Bob at Ultimate Vet has a decent ultrasound machine and will be able to tell you how you're traveling :) Edited November 14, 2012 by goldielover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadbury Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 LP: Did you prog test when you mated Zara (ie. do you know when she ovulated?) 0.5 a degree isn't that much. I usually take the 'temp drop' to be almost a full degree (and it can go up and down). However generally when the temp is 36.8 or 36.9 you will have pups in 12 to 24 hours. If you are over 63 days post-ovulation and nothing happens, that's when i'd be going for a check up with the vet. A little more difficult if you're not sure when she ovulated. With no inertia in the lines i wouldn't be too concerned. Other than a temp drop, Izzy really gave me very little indication that she was going to whelp - it was a bit of a surprise, but we were prepared as we caught the temp drop. No panting, shivering, etc. Just checked my records from Izzy's whelping last week and at the highest point her temp was 38. It dropped to 37.5 several times including 6 days before she was due! Her temp was 36.8 at 6am on the 6th and she started to deliver her pups at 9pm that day. I would take her temp at least twice a day from a week before she is due, and about 3 days before, i'd take it more frequently (i usually do 4 times a day) so as not to miss the drop ETA. Also, you can always run up the road for a quick ultrasound if you are concerned. Bob at Ultimate Vet has a decent ultrasound machine and will be able to tell you how you're traveling :) +1 My Cavalier had a CS with her first litter and with the second she had the drop to 36.5 on day 62 from first mating - took her to the vet at 9am, he said that if she hadn't started showing signs for delivery bring her back at 4.pm. Well Kyra must have heard him because she started contracting on the way home (5min Drive) and delivered 4 healthy pups with no problems at all. I think that this is such a stressful time for all breeders - The fact that her lines, apart from Kinta have whelped on there own would be very reassuring to me. Happy Whelping Vibes being sent your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 Thanks GL. I guess the difference with my story and some of the scary stories I have heard, all other girls have gone past 63 days. We prog all our girls before mating so I have a pretty good idea of when whelping should occur. Zaras prog at first mating was 65! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldielover Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Good that you know that LP, so at least you can count the 63 days from her first mating :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Whelping is 63 days from ovulation at most. Temperatures can go up and down for a couple of days and the full degree drop that signals that that whelping will be within 12-24 hours can also be missed, so the temperature is only a rough guide. My vet is a repro specialist and usually ultrasounds in the last couple of days if concerned. If the temp drops a full degree and there are no puppies in 24 hours, I would prog test, otherwise wait out the 63 days if all is going well. Having said that, if in any doubt it is always safer to do a caesar early rather than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Agree with the rest. IMO the 1/2 degree drop for the first two litters wasn't enough of a sign and if you had waited it out, my feeling is you would have seen a more significant drop later and normal whelping shortly after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I would have ultrasounded to check they still had heart beats and they were active and waited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 Interesting comments and thanks to you all :-) One side note is that two of my friends have presented with the same problem. One has had inertia in both of her bitches and prog levels got as low at 3.0 with no more than a 1/2 degree drop. One had a 1/2 degree drop, waited it out and by the time it became concerning, she rushed to the vet, almost lost the girl an list 3 pups. Guess its hard to know exactly what to do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I agree 63 days is counted from the day of ovulation, not the day of mating...they ovulate and then you usually mate 48 hours later.... My bitch ovulated on Monday 3rd September...63 days from ovulation was Monday 5th November....and bang on 8am on the 5th went into labour :) Temp drop was Sunday morning at 36.7, approx 24 hours later she waters broke :) I have often wondered why people count 63 days from first mating....when it 63 days from ovulation??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Forgot to say after ovulating on Monday 3rd, we mated her on Thursday 6th September :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldielover Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 It's possible she missed her bitches temp drop, as it goes back up again eg. Izzy's temp was 37.8 at 5.30pm on the 5th, then 37.6 at 10.30pm, then at 1am on the 6th it was 37.4, 6am it was 36.7 (so our big drop), then i next took it at 9am and it was 37.3 - would have been easy to miss had i not taken it so frequently. Some people also say that some bitches don't even get the temp drop, but mine all have and they have all then had their pups between 12 and 24 hours after (most of mine have been 24 hours to the minute, except Iz) We also rely on the fact that the vet/lab's machines are calibrated correctly too when testing prog levels :) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldielover Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I have often wondered why people count 63 days from first mating....when it 63 days from ovulation??? I wonder that too... i guess it's a safety net if they haven't prog tested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I guess it's hard for the bitches who spike and rise quite quickly once they have ovulated :) I have heard people go exactly 2 months from the day of mating, others 63 days from first mating I take all my dogs to Dr Watts at Wyndham Vet Clinic and found him brilliant and always spot on :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Just because I hear different stories from everyone.... what is the progesterone level when the bitch ovulates? You are always told "ideal mating time" or "mate 2 days after ovulation" etc, but few people say "ovulation occurs when progesterone levels arexxxx" I'd be interested to know :p. ETA - GL - what were you doing up at 1am in the morning?! LOL! Usually I take my dogs temp 3-4 times per day when they are in their final week. When I get up, as soon as I'm home from work and before I go to bed... If I could, I'd also do a lunch time, but not always possible, which is why I worry that I may miss the 'drop'.. Edited November 14, 2012 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I agree 63 days is counted from the day of ovulation, not the day of mating...they ovulate and then you usually mate 48 hours later.... My bitch ovulated on Monday 3rd September...63 days from ovulation was Monday 5th November....and bang on 8am on the 5th went into labour :) Temp drop was Sunday morning at 36.7, approx 24 hours later she waters broke :) I have often wondered why people count 63 days from first mating....when it 63 days from ovulation??? Because, before there was prog testing, breeders had nfi when the dog was ovulating, and early on, presumed she was ovulating when she was flagging, and able to be served. I suppose we could have been smart and counted back two days from first service ..... but no one ever thought of it. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldielover Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Just because I hear different stories from everyone.... what is the progesterone level when the bitch ovulates? You are always told "ideal mating time" or "mate 2 days after ovulation" etc, but few people say "ovulation occurs when progesterone levels arexxxx" I'd be interested to know :p. ETA - GL - what were you doing up at 1am in the morning?! LOL! Usually I take my dogs temp 3-4 times per day when they are in their final week. When I get up, as soon as I'm home from work and before I go to bed... If I could, I'd also do a lunch time, but not always possible, which is why I worry that I may miss the 'drop'.. I'm more likely to be up at 1am than 6am lol - not a morning person!! Had i not taken it at 6, i would have missed the drop also and thought there was only a 0.5 degree drop/no drop. Easy to miss, and i'm glad i caught it as Izzy really gave me no other indication that she was going to whelp soon LOL LP: I have just found this article which is a good read: http://www.aushound.com.au/hormone-levels-in-a-brood-bitch/ Edited November 14, 2012 by goldielover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 "Back in the days" prior to prog testing, and still very much relevant for those of us who don't have it available conveniently, we counted and watched and used the tools available to us. Temp taking in my world commences at LEAST a week prior to "due date" and is done a minimum of 4 times per day to establish a baseline. That way, you know if a 0.5 decrease is relevant or not. Whelping can take place anywhere from 58 - 63 days however I have to say that in 26 years of breeding, the norm is the 63 days so even in a bitch with a history of inertia, a 0.5 degree drop at day 58 probably wouldn't even make my heart flutter, let alone think I should be diving in for a c-section. I have now been temp testing religiously for years, a number of breeds (some my own, some I have whelped for others) and if the temp testing is done properly and charted properly, there have only been rare occasions when some sort of significant temp change has been noted, whether a small drop at an unexpected time or the expected dramatic drop that heralds onset of whelping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Having taken the temp on every bitch I've whelped from at least three weeks out from the due date, I have noticed that about a week before the bitch actually whelps, she has a temp drop and a bit of a practice scratch up. Nothing ever comes of it and then around a week later we get a substantial temp drop and whelping begins. It's been very interesting to watch over the years. I've never bothered with prog testing, careful observation and the odd ultrasound is enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Having taken the temp on every bitch I've whelped from at least three weeks out from the due date, I have noticed that about a week before the bitch actually whelps, she has a temp drop and a bit of a practice scratch up. Nothing ever comes of it and then around a week later we get a substantial temp drop and whelping begins. It's been very interesting to watch over the years. I've never bothered with prog testing, careful observation and the odd ultrasound is enough. Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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