Rectal Adenocarcinoma

[shepherds]

My 9 year old boy has today been diagnosed with an inoperable rectal Adenocarcinoma. It's situated right in the pelvic, approximately the size of an egg.

The vet has advised given the position of the tumor it is inoperable and it is palliative care, Aside from being slightly constipated in all other aspects he gives the appearance of being healthy, eating, drinking, playing and has an active interest on whatever is going on around him, including chasing swallows in the paddock. I'm shattered.

Has anyone had any experience with this....and if so what did you learn, what was helpful, useful etc etc. Has anyone used a herbal/naturopathic approach (and if so what)? And has anyone used or heard of POLY MVA?

Thank you

Edited November 13, 2012 by shepherds

[Xyz]

So sorry to hear about your dog...

I would recommend you seek referral to a specialist surgeon, surprising where a good surgeon can remove a tumour from.

[shepherds]

So sorry to hear about your dog...

I would recommend you seek referral to a specialist surgeon, surprising where a good surgeon can remove a tumour from.

Thank you, it has been explained to me given the location unlikely they will be able to get a clear margin and it to get to it will necessitate breaking his pelvis and they are also uncertain as to the extent (if any of secondaries). Any surgery would also be done on the mainland where the experts are and whilst that's not an issue, it's a consideration when considering how he would cope with the flight, surgery and travel home.

And whilst I admit my thoughts are still all over the place and generally I will go to the ends of the earth when it comes to treatment for my animals, my initial gut reaction when the vet gave me the bad news was that given his age and what is happening is to give him quality of life and manage it, keeping him pain free as long as we can.

The info I have found to date is not at all promising, even where surgery was able to be done....

That said, the brain is spinning at 100miles per hour and I just don't know what is right...

[k9katz]

I am sorry to hear about your boy but I also recommend you ask your vet to refer you to a specialist. My 11 1/2 year old GSD was diagnosed with an anal gland adenocarcinoma in June this year, my vet immediately sent me to South Paws in Moorabin to Dr Charles Kuntz, the man is a genious and operated on my girl and removed the whole tumor with clear margins. Research had told me that a very high percentage of dogs who have this op will have permanent feacal incontinence but Dr Charles told me he has done many, many of these ops and has not had 1 dog become incontinent. Today my girl is still chasing swallows on the beach :) I wish you all the very best of luck as I know how devastating the news can be.

[shepherds]

I am sorry to hear about your boy but I also recommend you ask your vet to refer you to a specialist. My 11 1/2 year old GSD was diagnosed with an anal gland adenocarcinoma in June this year, my vet immediately sent me to South Paws in Moorabin to Dr Charles Kuntz, the man is a genious and operated on my girl and removed the whole tumor with clear margins. Research had told me that a very high percentage of dogs who have this op will have permanent feacal incontinence but Dr Charles told me he has done many, many of these ops and has not had 1 dog become incontinent. Today my girl is still chasing swallows on the beach :) I wish you all the very best of luck as I know how devastating the news can be.

Thank you.....I will talk to the vet again tomorrow and ask her to make some phone calls, in particular to your specialist. My vet gave me a lot of verbal info today and I know some of it didn't stick...but I do recall her telling me, where it it located they need to go through the pelvis...but it never hurts to ask questions and for further explanation.and you have given me the name of someone to call.

And long may your girl enjoy chasing swallows.

[gillbear]

Dr Kuntz is a member of this forum http://www.dolforums.com.au/user/25461-charles-kuntz/

goodluck with your baby :)

[shepherds]

Dr Kuntz is a member of this forum http://www.dolforums.com.au/user/25461-charles-kuntz/

goodluck with your baby :)

Thank you.....Will try and make contact tomorrow..... Trying so hard to keep it together in front of my boy,.....

Does anyone think that dogs know when they are really sick......

[dancinbcs]

Given the circumstances I would try to give him some more time and quality of life with Traditional Chinese Medicine. Dr Ann Neville in Bentleigh, Vic, ph: (03) 9555 1899 is a vet who also does TCM and has a very successful track record with cancer dogs including one of mine and several belonging to friends. She will consult by phone and do testing on hair samples as well as working with your vet to treat the dog long distance, so you wouldn't have to take him to the mainland.

[Dxenion]

I know what you're going through right now. I was in this position about four weeks ago. It was so hard keeping it together whilst trying to keep things as normal as possible for her. We chose palliative care for a number of reasons. Know that there are wonderfully supportive people here in the land of DOL and that you are not alone, no matter which path you decide to take.

[shepherds]

Given the circumstances I would try to give him some more time and quality of life with Traditional Chinese Medicine. Dr Ann Neville in Bentleigh, Vic, ph: (03) 9555 1899 is a vet who also does TCM and has a very successful track record with cancer dogs including one of mine and several belonging to friends. She will consult by phone and do testing on hair samples as well as working with your vet to treat the dog long distance, so you wouldn't have to take him to the mainland.

Thank you dancinbcs......I will explore that as well. I was hoping today I would wake up with some clarity of mind on what to do. I admit its not in my nature to give in and my head and my heart have spent all night arguing with no real outcome on where to go and what to do next.

Will spend today investigating all options and while my head is telling me to give him quality, my heart while I sit here watching him bounce around outside waiting for the swallows to get up, is to fight with everything available still knowing that is not always the best thing to do.

[shepherds]

I know what you're going through right now. I was in this position about four weeks ago. It was so hard keeping it together whilst trying to keep things as normal as possible for her. We chose palliative care for a number of reasons. Know that there are wonderfully supportive people here in the land of DOL and that you are not alone, no matter which path you decide to take.

I read your story last night Dxenion and I'm so sorry for the loss of your girl Java.

So many of the thoughts you expressed are where my heads at right now....

They give us so much, but at times like this that unconditional love is almost unbearable when faced with not having them anymore....

[k9katz]

Shepherds it is obvious to anyone who reads your posts that you care for this dog very much and as such you will make the right decision in the end, we just have to go through all these terrible feelings and self doubt to get there:) Be guided by the vets also, my vet said that 1 of the reasons he respects Charles so much is because he will be honest if he doesnt think it would be in the dog's best interests to operate. We were lucky with Trinta as it was still very small ( I actually found it by chance when I was expressing her anal glands)and a CT scan showed it hadnt spread. I had to let Becky, another GSD go at 8 due to cancer that was inoperable, I hated that so much but loved her too much to make her stay with me and yes I do beleieve they know when they are sick. Becky wanted to go I am sure, Trinta just isnt ready yet. I know you will do whatever is best for your baby. Hugzzzz

[shepherds]

Shepherds it is obvious to anyone who reads your posts that you care for this dog very much and as such you will make the right decision in the end, we just have to go through all these terrible feelings and self doubt to get there:) Be guided by the vets also, my vet said that 1 of the reasons he respects Charles so much is because he will be honest if he doesnt think it would be in the dog's best interests to operate. We were lucky with Trinta as it was still very small ( I actually found it by chance when I was expressing her anal glands)and a CT scan showed it hadnt spread. I had to let Becky, another GSD go at 8 due to cancer that was inoperable, I hated that so much but loved her too much to make her stay with me and yes I do beleieve they know when they are sick. Becky wanted to go I am sure, Trinta just isnt ready yet. I know you will do whatever is best for your baby. Hugzzzz

Thank you again. I went to work today, but had to leave cos I was useless. I have however put my time to good use,. i have met with my vet and gone through everything again in detail. She Ihas had experience with this and only recently worked with another client, flying with the dog to Sydney for surgery (which wasn't a good outcome ). My boys tumor is in the exact same location which is why she has provided the advice she has, she will however speak to Dr Charles Kuntz.

In the meantime I have also spoken to Anne Neville (who is lovely and very supportive) and have just now express posted everything relevant including hair sample and will see where we go from there.

If nothing else I feel like I've done something and got a plan in place, whichever way it goes.....

[shepherds]

Well has been a busy couple of days. All tests done here have come back and so far everything is good. Liver and kidney function normal, platelets normal and outside of tumor all other X-rays etc are clear. Vets words if you didn't know about the tumor, based on all other results and how he presents himself you would think he was in good health.

Following everyone's recommendations, lots of research and lots of talking with those that know, we are booked to go to Melbourne on Tueday to meet with both Dr Kuntz and Dr Anne Neville and will take the next step from there.

Thank you all for your input, it has helped more than you would know.

[k9katz]

Well has been a busy couple of days. All tests done here have come back and so far everything is good. Liver and kidney function normal, platelets normal and outside of tumor all other X-rays etc are clear. Vets words if you didn't know about the tumor, based on all other results and how he presents himself you would think he was in good health.

Following everyone's recommendations, lots of research and lots of talking with those that know, we are booked to go to Melbourne on Tueday to meet with both Dr Kuntz and Dr Anne Neville and will take the next step from there.

Thank you all for your input, it has helped more than you would know.

[/quote

Little steps Shepherds:) I hope all goes well for you and your boy. Do please keep us posted. I almost feel like it was fate I saw your post as I havent been on here for ages, I really hope that there is a good outcome to this:) All the best.

[best4koda]

Sorry to hear you have a battle with Cancer. We went thru this with our first GSD at age 5 years. Unfortunately we lost our lovely boy 6 months later but in saying that it had spread to his limp glands in the pelvic area and even though we got the best treatment we could we lost him but we gave him some time being so young. In saying that that was 11yrs ago and I'm sure treatment has moved along considerably. A second opinion is worth while. Fingers crossed for a positive outcome!

Do dogs know when they are really sick? I think so, we have lost to Shepherds to the big C (broke our hearts)and both my boys would stay very close to me. I think they know something is very wrong and just wanted to be comforted. They are such troopers though.

[Missymoo]

How did the appointments go for you?

[shepherds]

Hi Guys...

It's been a big couple of weeks, with lots of ups and downs. The tumour (as confirmed by Dr Kuntz at Southpaws in Melbourne) is definitely inoperable, in Charles words, it would not be fair to the dog.

I then took him to see Dr Anne Neville and since returning to Tas have started him on a holistic program, including IV vitamin C, two types of liquid herbs and a raw organic diet.

The IV's went well, it takes nearly two hours to run it into his system and he is a very good boy, who just plonks himself down on the beds the vet kindly puts down for him, and as long as I sit next to him, he will just lie their patiently with his head in my lap for the entire time it takes, no fuss or bother. My vet has been brilliant with all this.

His energy levels have been okay, still interested in doing things and up and ready to go. The big issue is the food and the herbs....HE HATES IT,,,,, and has not eaten a proper meal for nearly a week and has lost weight. In desperation today, I reverted to his pre cancer diet and he scoffed everything (which indicates to me his lack of appetite is not cancer related).

At this stage I'm not sure whether its the raw veggies (he has always previously had a lot of cooked veggies in his diet and its never been an issue)..or the Chinese herbs. I have tried that many variations n trying to get the food into him, I have lost track....I have tried (in no particular order):

Herbs squirted down the throat, followed up by syringe of homemade chicken stock and then meal of raw meat,cooked and raw vegetables - end result...herbs were spat out, stock spat out and refused to eat the meat and veggies.

Raw meat and veggies and herbs soaked overnight together, to which was added warmed steamed veggies, dry food and a bit of yoghurt - refused to eat....thrown out

Herbs mixed in to raw meat, gravy, veggies etc added and served up straight away...refused to eat....dry food added..refused to eat.

Herbs mixed into barley or rice, left to soak in overnight, added to raw meat and veggies...refused to eat

Ther are two herb mixtures and they smell and taste vile (yes I did a quick taste test)....to me the smell is the worst.... And I am trying to get one in in the morning and the other at night.

I am now going to go back to his normal food, slowly changing over to the full raw, bit by bit...(I suspect he doesnt like the texture of completely raw and misses the crunch of the dry) but I'm stuffed if I know wot to do with the herbs....my last option is to mix a couple of ml's at a time into some icrecream (after he has been fed) to see if he will take it that way... That will take a while tho as one is 20mls daily and the other is 15ml.

If anyone has any ideas/suggestions I would be very grateful.... The last week has been overtaken with meal preparation and whether he is going to eat or not.

I'm also well aware that while Anne Neville has had success in this area, the odds are stacked against him and his best chance with Anne's progam is getting this into him over the next 2-3 weeks (as to whether its going to help).

This is also doing my head in....if it doesn't work, do I really want to have spent the last 3 weeks battling with him and the diet, when we could be doing other things and he is happy..... Or if I don't continue to try and persevere for the next couple of weeks, will I regret it because I will never know if it could have bought more time or not.....and I know it has worked for others....

People when they see him are still gobsmacked he has what he has...... That also makes it very hard to give in and just let things take there course....

Any suggestions.....please?????

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I've been there with the herbs myself, couldn't get the dog to take them so stuffed them into naughty things like cheese and even covered something in honey once ...

I'm sure it's that and not the other foods which does make it hard.

In July, Iggy Rescue took on a dog who turned out to have 2 kinds of cancerous tumours. We removed 14 and were told that more would come and we couldn't keep removing them and he'd only have a few weeks as it had most likely metastisised.

Our foster carer had 6 more tumours removed about 6 weeks after his other surgery(after much discussion and consultation and we said no more after that).

We sent carer and dog off to the All Natural Vet at Russell Lea in Sydney who prescribed the similar natural diet and herbs. Luckily this particular dog does eat them and he's the picture of health, 5 months later. No more tumours have appeared and we are all hoping for many more months. It's hard but give it a go, providing he's getting quality of life.

Edited December 2, 2012 by dogmad

[shepherds]

Sorry to hear you have a battle with Cancer. We went thru this with our first GSD at age 5 years. Unfortunately we lost our lovely boy 6 months later but in saying that it had spread to his limp glands in the pelvic area and even though we got the best treatment we could we lost him but we gave him some time being so young. In saying that that was 11yrs ago and I'm sure treatment has moved along considerably. A second opinion is worth while. Fingers crossed for a positive outcome!

Do dogs know when they are really sick? I think so, we have lost to Shepherds to the big C (broke our hearts)and both my boys would stay very close to me. I think they know something is very wrong and just wanted to be comforted. They are such troopers though.

I am satisfied with Dr Charles advice that it is inoperable, initially he advised surgery would be a possibility , however once the scans were done, they showed the size and extent of it, that its just not an option. If nothing else, that helped in at least I have explored all surgical avenues.

And im sorry to hear about your two, 5 years, that is just way to young and devastating to lose both to cancer... And yes, they are certainly troopers....