Dog Behaviourist In Adelaide - Recommendations Please

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

BDJ

It's fine for your friend to focus on positive reinforcement (using things the dogs like as rewards to encourage desirable behaviour), but if she withholds a treat - that's "negative punishment" (using something the dog doesn't like eg no treat - to discourage undesirable behaviour).

I prefer to call it reward based training. Ie you give a reward for desirable behaviour and withhold it for undesirable behaviour and you may also have to control the environment (limit the opportunity for dog to be naughty)

Eg the tissue shredding scenario - this is one of my dog's fave things. She will pick my pocket if I'm not paying attention (computers will do this to me) and shred the tissue. But I can stop her and then make her do what I want (20 tricks) and then she can have the tissue to shred. I play "its yer choice" with it ie I give it to her if she can show enough impulse control to not be trying to steal it. It's a fun game and we both enjoy it.

But if it's a new game - she's still learning what she needs to do to get what she wants - she can get very frustrated and bark a lot. It's important not to reward this in any way.

So the jargon problem is - there is no such thing as all positive dog training - or you'd be rewarding crap behaviour too. Ie you'd never withhold the treat or limit the dog's opportunity to be naughty. So it's a matter of being clear on what aversives (Things the dog doesn't like) that your friend is willing to use. Eg With-holding the treat. Putting the dog on lead (with a flat collar). Saying "try again" when the dog doesn't do the required behaviour...

Get your friend to pay attention to what her dogs like - and use those to get what she wants. And maybe keep the kleenex where the dog can't reach them. And - make a training plan. At the end of our sessions - I'd like to know how to teach my dog to give me the kleenex when I ask, to leave them alone if not given permission to have etc.

Steve Courtney has a list of criteria for choosing a good dog trainer - I think - bottom line - they've got to come up with methods the owner / handler understands and is willing to use - or it's a bit pointless. One well known franchise came to help my neighbours with their barking dog - and the methods were far too silly for my neighbours to be willing to use, and sufficiently unpleasant (aversive) for everybody - owner and dog - that nobody wanted to use them either. So that dog still barks at every moving thing around its back yard and kills any critter too slow to get clear in time. They haven't asked me for help either. They think I'm pretty silly walking round the back yard with my dog asking for a "5hitnapiss". Cracks them up but they won't do stuff like that.

[Aidan3]

It's fine for your friend to focus on positive reinforcement (using things the dogs like as rewards to encourage desirable behaviour), but if she withholds a treat - that's "negative punishment" (using something the dog doesn't like eg no treat - to discourage undesirable behaviour).

It's a small gripe of mine (and it's not just about semantics, but that's a discussion for another thread), but this would be an extinction procedure, not negative punishment.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

It's fine for your friend to focus on positive reinforcement (using things the dogs like as rewards to encourage desirable behaviour), but if she withholds a treat - that's "negative punishment" (using something the dog doesn't like eg no treat - to discourage undesirable behaviour).

It's a small gripe of mine (and it's not just about semantics, but that's a discussion for another thread), but this would be an extinction procedure, not negative punishment.

You try telling that to my dog. She says it's the end of the world. (oh wait - the end of the world would certainly make all procedures and dogs extinct).

There are some grey areas where the quadrants overlap. Ie is a non reward marker - an aversive or an extinction procedure. Actually I don't know much about "extinction procedures" as a term. Is that the same as not rewarding crap? If you don't reward something in order to not encourage it - is that the same as punishing it? Is it likely - when rewards are on offer that a behaviour would stay the same?

Anyway - this is just noise in the signal and not helping the OP choose a trainer. I suspect the best trainers are somewhere between academic mastery and practical application.

Steve's article is here.

http://k9pro.com.au/services/how-to-choose-a-dog-trainer/

Edited November 14, 2012 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[cassie]

Mark Singer. Every time.

[corvus]

It's fine for your friend to focus on positive reinforcement (using things the dogs like as rewards to encourage desirable behaviour), but if she withholds a treat - that's "negative punishment" (using something the dog doesn't like eg no treat - to discourage undesirable behaviour).

It's a small gripe of mine (and it's not just about semantics, but that's a discussion for another thread), but this would be an extinction procedure, not negative punishment.

You try telling that to my dog. She says it's the end of the world. (oh wait - the end of the world would certainly make all procedures and dogs extinct).

Oh, oh, that might be an emotional thing. I love this paper that talks about sensitivity to reward loss: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2610134/ I reckon I've seen this in some of my study dogs. I have a really cool video of a dog I think is showing it. It's quite bizarre. These dogs appear fine most of the time, but tend to really struggle under pressure if they don't know exactly what to do.

Anyway, as you were. I doubt there is any such thing as purely positive training outside of laboratories. Even then, operant conditioning isn't everything. I don't trust anyone who claims they are purely positive. Either they are using it as a marketing ploy or they don't have a very good grasp of the little complexities of training animals. I could forgive the first if they know what they are doing, but I could never stomach using it as a marketing tool myself. Blerk. Mind you, I've seen a good argument for the positive and negative bits of the quadrants being redundant and unnecessarily confusing. Plus I'm always like "Really? Does that mean you use only positive reinforcement and positive punishment?" 'Cause I'm a smart alek.

[corvus]

double post

Edited November 14, 2012 by corvus

[Tralee]

Dr. Robert Holmes is based in Melbourne :) if the OPs friend wanted an appointment with him they might be waiting a long time!

He may be based in Melbourne but he visits Adelaide frequently.

I had a consult with him while I was living in Broken Hill.

The OP has a number of options, and may not suite some of them.

[casowner]

Yes I believe in a balanced approach using positive and negative reinforcement. My methods and theories on dog training and behaviour modification are all discussed in my articles on my website. I also discuss why in my opinion in many (not all) instances purely positive isn't effective, and really only masks unwanted behaviour. Feel free to have a read through them. If one chooses to use purely positive, I respect their choice, and hope it works out for them. If it isn't effective, then I do hope for the sake of our dogs that dog owners will seek out alternatives, and not try to make excuses for their dog.

OT but does your contact form work on your website as I have emailed twice with no response regarding training courses you offer for my ASD pup?

[AdelK9]

Yes I believe in a balanced approach using positive and negative reinforcement. My methods and theories on dog training and behaviour modification are all discussed in my articles on my website. I also discuss why in my opinion in many (not all) instances purely positive isn't effective, and really only masks unwanted behaviour. Feel free to have a read through them. If one chooses to use purely positive, I respect their choice, and hope it works out for them. If it isn't effective, then I do hope for the sake of our dogs that dog owners will seek out alternatives, and not try to make excuses for their dog.

OT but does your contact form work on your website as I have emailed twice with no response regarding training courses you offer for my ASD pup?

Hi millbrooksprings

Yes as far as I know it is working. Have had a few emails come through the past few days from my contact form. If you did not receive a confirmation that your email was received by me, and a message show on my site that your message was sent, that means it didn't go through. Did you receive the confirmation email as soon as you submitted the form? If you didn't, it may mean you didn't fill in all the required fields.

Feel free to phone me on 1300 255 364 if you prefer. However the form is working. :)

Mark

[Allywil]

thanks again guys - appreciated

Sorry Megan if you thought I was trying to make this a debate about collars/harness/check chains/prongs - I only mentioned that to give an idea of the owners thoughts and prferences, not about what I thought was appropriate or best

As I said, I have not met the dogs, so cant say what I would use - to be honest I would possibly use a choker (yes, I am old school, that is what they were called 20 years ago) to walk them, simply because she has said they drag her everywhere in a harness (they are not SWFs, they are poodle/lab crosses), or something like a head halter, so that she is working on the physics of controlling the end of the body, if they decide to bolt it is easier to offset the head/neck to (attempt to) gain leverage than it is to stop them when they are using their combined body strength.

And before anyone has a fit and responds with ' but harnesses work............................' I do know that harnesses work, but not what I would recommend for a 5'4" woman with dogs that weigh over 20kg each who have had years of experience pushing the boundaries and barging when wearing a harness. Whist she has the best of intentions, she is not an experienced trainer who has the timing perfect and can see a situation developing 10 mins before it does.

Where do people struggling with handling their dog's behaviour and in need of a trainer's help get the knowledge from to determine the type of training their dog needs? Wouldn't it be better to present the dog to a trainer to be assessed then discuss the training options most suitable?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Wouldn't it be better to present the dog to a trainer to be assessed then discuss the training options most suitable

This really didn't work for my neighbour. First you have to find a successful trainer whose methods you're comfortable using (word of mouth or keyboard friends).

There are a number of successful trainers on TV and not all of them use methods that would work with my dog. Her being as soft as a melted icecream. PS @ Corvus - interesting article but there is another option - I've never successfully taught my dog how to cope with Frustration. Possibly because I'm not very good at coping with it either.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Allywil]

Wouldn't it be better to present the dog to a trainer to be assessed then discuss the training options most suitable

This really didn't work for my neighbour. First you have to find a successful trainer whose methods you're comfortable using (word of mouth or keyboard friends).

There are a number of successful trainers on TV and not all of them use methods that would work with my dog. Her being as soft as a melted icecream. PS @ Corvus - interesting article but there is another option - I've never successfully taught my dog how to cope with Frustration. Possibly because I'm not very good at coping with it either.

What I was thinking, if the owner has already mapped out the training style they require for problem behaviour, how do they know what they have mapped out is the right training style for their specific situation Obviously they are not overly experienced in dog training to require a trainer's assistance in the first place, why choose a training style before a trainer has assessed the dog

[BDJ]

I agree that there is nothing more frustrating than someone who wants help, but then refuses to accept ideas without trying them - but that is not the situation here

However, I provided some info and preferences, because there are many methods and theories out there, and you need to be comfortable with the approach, manner and method.

SHe has spoken to one person and the initial consult is a reasonable amount (either $200 or $300 I cant remember) - not disputing that it is valid or worthwhile, but not money you want to spend with 5 people - not to mention the confusion this would cause for both the owner and the dog.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I find most training goes to hell - not because of the style - but the committment, consistentcy and timing of actual delivery of reward or aversive.

There is a much higher chance of bad timing getting the wrong result and being hard to re-train - using aversives - especially stronger ones ie loud reprimands, or physical pain or irritation. You can end up with a dog that would prefer to avoid you than train with you. Eg hiding behind the couch to toilet instead of coming when called to go outside.

And the dog does a very good job of looking sad and disappointed in the owner when aversives are used - which can lead to lack of committment and consistency by the owner. Most owners would much rather reward their dog than punish it (yelling, yanking, time outs). So the whole style can be aversive for the owner. I also think this is why rangers won't enforce their local dog rules like on lead areas, and picking up - because it's as aversive and unpleasant for them as it is for the bad owner.

Reward based training goes to hell - when the dog gets rewarded for everything - not the desired behaviour, and when there isn't a transition from high rates of reward (always paying like a vending machine) to rewarding average or better (more random payouts like a pokie machine).

This is where I fail - I figure if I don't reward reliably for recalls - the dog won't come reliably but in fact I get better response if I only reward fast prompt recalls with yummy roast chicken and reward the "in a minite" recalls with a pat and "that was crap" in a happy voice.

So I think choosing a trainer who mainly uses a style you're more comfortable with is a good idea. If that style doesn't work - you've got to consider it might be the delivery not the style that is the problem.

[kiesha09]

I find most training goes to hell - not because of the style - but the committment, consistentcy and timing of actual delivery of reward or aversive.

There is a much higher chance of bad timing getting the wrong result and being hard to re-train - using aversives - especially stronger ones ie loud reprimands, or physical pain or irritation. You can end up with a dog that would prefer to avoid you than train with you. Eg hiding behind the couch to toilet instead of coming when called to go outside.

And the dog does a very good job of looking sad and disappointed in the owner when aversives are used - which can lead to lack of committment and consistency by the owner. Most owners would much rather reward their dog than punish it (yelling, yanking, time outs). So the whole style can be aversive for the owner. I also think this is why rangers won't enforce their local dog rules like on lead areas, and picking up - because it's as aversive and unpleasant for them as it is for the bad owner.

Reward based training goes to hell - when the dog gets rewarded for everything - not the desired behaviour, and when there isn't a transition from high rates of reward (always paying like a vending machine) to rewarding average or better (more random payouts like a pokie machine).

This is where I fail - I figure if I don't reward reliably for recalls - the dog won't come reliably but in fact I get better response if I only reward fast prompt recalls with yummy roast chicken and reward the "in a minite" recalls with a pat and "that was crap" in a happy voice.

So I think choosing a trainer who mainly uses a style you're more comfortable with is a good idea. If that style doesn't work - you've got to consider it might be the delivery not the style that is the problem.

Fantastic post MRB!