I Visited A Pound Today.

[Wobbly]

Yeah, another problem for Bull breeds apart from the fact that there is just so many of them in pounds, is that a multi-dog household with bullies might need a little more management than a multi-dog household with other breeds.

I know I'd love to foster (and ofc I would foster a Bully breed, probably resulting in a foster failure XD), but I'd need to build infrastructure like dog runs for when I wasn't present to supervise interactions. I think there's probably quite a lot of Bull breed fans in this situation - we'd love to save lots of them, but practical considerations like ensuring the peace is maintained when we aren't around to supervise make it too difficult.

[mixeduppup]

I have to agree with the bullbreed thing, I recently looked after a bullbreed for a few days and she was completely different from my others dogs and required very different care and management. Bully rescues are amazing imho with what they would have to set up in order to house these rescues.

Edited November 13, 2012 by mixeduppup

[Aphra]

Well then I'd be contributing to the "too many" dogs situation now wouldn't I?? Pity folk don't do a bit of research about who's REALLY breeding in numbers before trotting out that accusation on ANKC breeders.

Breeders on this forum complain that people are blaming them for dogs in pounds, but I've been rescuing for going on ten years now, and I still have no idea who the "they" is, who keep accusing registered breeders of this.

Pedigree dogs (with papers) do end up in the pound, but no rescuer I know would say that that was the majority of pound dogs. On the other hand, there are lots of lots of dogs of identifiable breeds in pounds, presumably some of them had papers at some stage, but the majority are clearly from backyard breeders.

As far as I can tell the main sources of dogs in the pound we work with are: random breeders (accidental litters, people who want to breed just because, whatever); working breeds (workers who won't work, working litters surrendered because farmers only wanted a couple of pups); hunting dogs, either dogs who won't hunt, or the excess from big litters; deliberate backyard breeders (they'll often dump ex-breeding stock); and then in diminishing order other kinds of dogs (people moving; old folk dying; people who can't afford the pound fees and so on).

[Aphra]

Off-topic mantis, but we just rehomed a Cairn. He was the first pure Cairn I've handled and we were all desperately in love with him. If Dougal was typical of the breed I've found my old lady dogs. :laugh: What a great little dog and such a wonderful character.

Exactly. When I was breeding my Cairns, I told all the buyers if they had problems to call me first, I also told them that if they didn't know how to hand strip their dogs coats in summer I would do it for them. I had sore bloody hands, because most of the new owners took me up on my word, until I taught them how to do it.

As a breeder, you have a responsibility for the dogs you breed, even after you sell them.

[BlackJaq]

Yes, bull breeds can be more dog reactive but I don't think leaving any unknown foster dog alone with personal dogs is a good idea. I would always kennel/crate/somehow separate a dog I didn't know from my own dogs if I was not there to supervise, bull breed or not.

Also, in the last week or so I have seen about 5 litters of "staffies" on my local buy, swap and sell page alone. They are churned out like hot cakes. At the same time I have seen about a dozen or more "staffies" around the 12 m/o mark to give away for free on these same pages and nobody seems interested. Most of the puppies were selling between $50 - $200. Why do people keep breeding them? They can not possibly make money from them and once they get past the cute baby stage nobody wants to take them even for free

Edited November 13, 2012 by BlackJaq

[mantis]

Off-topic mantis, but we just rehomed a Cairn. He was the first pure Cairn I've handled and we were all desperately in love with him. If Dougal was typical of the breed I've found my old lady dogs. :laugh: What a great little dog and such a wonderful character.

Exactly. When I was breeding my Cairns, I told all the buyers if they had problems to call me first, I also told them that if they didn't know how to hand strip their dogs coats in summer I would do it for them. I had sore bloody hands, because most of the new owners took me up on my word, until I taught them how to do it.

As a breeder, you have a responsibility for the dogs you breed, even after you sell them.

They are fantastic little dogs, small on the outside, but big inside. I love them dearly, but alas, I am a big dog lover, so when my last sweet dog crossed the Rainbow Bridge, I followed my heart.

I just love Bull Breeds so much & strangely my Cairns were harder to handle. My twice Champion boy, who won many best in groups, Best Puppy in show etc. & also won Best of Breed at the Royal Melbourne Show when he was 17 months old, was a little bully. He used to scare an Irish Wolfhound who he frequently competed against for Best in Show. His owner used to say, stop your boy from scaring mine & we'd both laugh.

[Bilbo Baggins]

to the OP. I am very glad you got your Nanna's dog back. Wonderful that the system worked and the little dog was able to be got home nice and safe. As for the staff not smiling. Remember they deal with people coming to collect dogs all the time. They don't know you and they don't really know the reason your Nanna's dog was on the loose. From their point of view it may have been your irresponsibility or it may just have been an accident. But they see a lot of irresponsibility and hear a lot of sob stories and it must be hard for them to bite their tounge at times. In the end this was still another dog for them to care for with limited resources and you can't expect them to be too happy about that, even though they may be relieved this is one less out of many for them to deal with. And to protect themselves they may need sometimes to put up those barriers too. IMO just be pleased the system worked and allowed your Nanna to get her much loved dog back safe and well.

Regarding breeding and 'taking back' dogs there are many ways to 'take back' a dog without it physically coming to your own premises. It could be organising it to go straight to a new home, or arranging for someone else to mind a dog temporarily, or sending it to kennels for a stay. For example, a breeder located in NSW, who assists an owner of a dog they bred located in WA by arranging the dog to go to a new home in SA. This is still the breeder taking responsibility and 'taking back' the dog. In this type of situation it would make no sense at all for the breeder to ship the dog back to NSW to their own home first. It is all about taking responsibility and this is essentially what 'taking back' means.

espinay2 you have raised some good points there, particulary re interstate. Its reasonable to fly a pup across but a lot of money for a large mature dog.

If we (White Shepherd Rescue) can locate the breeder, we inform them of the dog. We do not expect them to take the dog. The last known "breeder" dog went from surrender to foster care to new owner in 5 days. As the breeder knew of someone who wanted a dog.

The big problem with possible purebred dogs is the fact that the original owner of the dog/pup at time of microchipping is not easily visible on the microchip DB. And know on looks behind the scenes. This has to change for and effecgtive breeder assistance.

The only reason we located the breeder was because the surrendering owner still had the original vaccination paperwork. The dog had gone from breeder to puppy sale to a new person. New person then passed on to surrenderer. The micro chip was in puppy buyers name but mobile was no longer. Just by luck the mother of the surrenderer had the paperwork as the dog had originally gone to her. So in reality this dog by the age of 2 had had 4 homes.

This breeder was unhappy as her contract states return to her if any problems.

So stop harping on about uncaring breeders.

[MonElite]

I dont know about other breeders but I certainly want the dogs I bred back, in the event where the owners cant/dont want to keep the dog.

I have this as part of the contract that owners sing when they buy a dog from me

The Buyer confirms that he/she is purchasing the Dobermann with the intention of keeping the Dobermann for the duration of its life. The Buyer agrees that the dog not be transferred, sold or given away to anyone. (Should the afore-mentioned happen to take place without the Breeder/Sellers consent the Breeder/Seller shall receive $10 000 in damages). In the event where the Buyer’s life situation may force him/her to re-home the Dobermann, the first option will be given to the Breeder. The Breeder will accept the return of this Dobermann with any relevant paperwork (registration papers signed over to the breeder, micro-chipping papers etc.).

[WExtremeG]

I like your idea MonElite, but how do you enforce it?

Purebred and pedigree go hand in hand for me...if someone says they've got a purebred, then they should have papers to back up that claim.

There are a bunch of dogs who may look "pure" but are not...especially the ones you know are not through their breeding.

[cowanbree]

I have a similar clause in mine but have also added a sentence re buy back value after my friend sold a puppy and they decided to on sell it for a higher amount 3mths down the track.

[Crisovar]

The vast majority of Breeders will certainly take back or assist in anyway they can to help one of their own. It is certainly also not unheard of for breeders to quietly save unknown dogs of their breed from pounds and rehome them, there are quite often networks of breeders that willingly assist with this. I have had quite a few lovely dogs of different breeds for short visits or airport connections due to this.

I don't understand the reluctance of some rescue groups to allow them to help them however. If Breeders and breed rescue groups are interested in taking on their own what is the big deal, it certainly lessens the burden.

Breeder acquaintance offered to take one of his back that had unbeknown to him been rehomed to a very unsuitable home and due to its fence hopping antics ended up in the pound. A rescue group took the dog on and Breeder discovered this via the doggy telegraph, group wouldn't allow the Breeder to take dog back or even suggest someone with a possible home (he had a waiting list). Dog escaped from an unsuitable foster carers backyard so they shuffled the dog around several times before eventually a breed fancier managed to get hold of the dog. The rescue group didn't want the dog going into the Breeders kennels, when this would have been the safest and most sensible option to start with, and save a rather stressed dog being loose on the streets several times.

I thought we were all in it for the dogs.

[tdierikx]

The rescue I'm with will happily work with breed rescue/breeders to find a suitable home for a dog in our care... especially if they forward potential great homes for that dog on to us...

What we aren't as fussed with is when we've gone to the trouble of rescuing a particular dog, and spent a good deal of time and money to do so, and some person from a breed rescue group starts calling and harrassing us to simply hand them the dog - as if we aren't "qualified" to have one of "their" breed in our care... that sort of attitude is only shown by a few thank dog, but boy it does grate!

However, if we know who bred the dog, and they generally do carefully select the homes their dogs/pups go to, we are most likely to offer them the dog back at no cost (and without desexing it like some rescues insist on).

T.

[MonElite]

I like your idea MonElite, but how do you enforce it?

I also have this

Failure to comply with the above terms and conditions may result in the Breeder reclaiming the abovementioned Dobermann, including any relevant paperwork, with no obligation to the Buyer whatsoever.

and I guess this is scary enough at the begging, so if someone doenst want to, they dont have to buy from me :)

Edited November 14, 2012 by MonElite

[Steph M]

Actually all of the rescue's i have worked with have taken dogs back with zero warning, its what makes them a good rescue, if they don't have foster space the dog goes into a kennel till it does, and foots the bill. Why can't a breeder do the same for their own if they won't have them at home?

It is black and white, clear up your own mess :)

When I adopted my sweet Cougar, Staffy Rescue said if I ever wanted to give her up, I had to give her back to them.

I think there's a vast difference between organisation and individual, which is kinda apples and oranges.

A breeder is still an individual with a family, house and life to manage, regardless.

An organisation has many hands and fingers in lots of pies, which is why perhaps they can do a little more on less notice.

[mantis]

Actually all of the rescue's i have worked with have taken dogs back with zero warning, its what makes them a good rescue, if they don't have foster space the dog goes into a kennel till it does, and foots the bill. Why can't a breeder do the same for their own if they won't have them at home?

It is black and white, clear up your own mess :)

When I adopted my sweet Cougar, Staffy Rescue said if I ever wanted to give her up, I had to give her back to them.

I think there's a vast difference between organisation and individual, which is kinda apples and oranges.

A breeder is still an individual with a family, house and life to manage, regardless.

An organisation has many hands and fingers in lots of pies, which is why perhaps they can do a little more on less notice.

When I was breeding my Cairns, I had a family, two small children no less, but I would still have taken back any of my dogs, rather than have it dumped at a pound, or given to any person, who might not have been a suitable owner. You breed them, you are responsible for them.

[Loving my Oldies]

I think there's a vast difference between organisation and individual, which is kinda apples and oranges.

A breeder is still an individual with a family, house and life to manage, regardless.

An organisation has many hands and fingers in lots of pies, which is why perhaps they can do a little more on less notice.

What do you think rescuers are, Stephanie M? Most are individuals who rely on a small, usually very small, group of fosters carers. Only a tiny minority are what you could call an "organisation".

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I think there's a vast difference between organisation and individual, which is kinda apples and oranges.

A breeder is still an individual with a family, house and life to manage, regardless.

An organisation has many hands and fingers in lots of pies, which is why perhaps they can do a little more on less notice.

What do you think rescuers are, Stephanie M? Most are individuals who rely on a small, usually very small, group of fosters carers. Only a tiny minority are what you could call an "organisation".

Obviously Steph thinks we don't have any families or responsibilities .... she might be right - we don't have time with the huge demands of taking on the unwanted dogs and cats. That alone is a massive responsibility. Still, I have to work full time and manage my house and garden and my own dogs plus run a rescue .... hmmm.

Edited November 14, 2012 by dogmad

[espinay2]

I think the point she is making is that a foster carer may elect not to take another dog but let another foster carer handle that one. A foster carer in a rescue is usually not the only one.. Every situation is unique and just like one individual foster carer may not at some point in time be able to take in another dog into their household there and then, so may it be for a breeder. as mentioned though, just because a breeder does not take a dog physically into their home does not mean they do not care or take responsibility. Like a rescue coordinator they may oversee the welfare of the dog and make arrangements for its care and welfare. this is taking responsibility too. As long as the breeder actively takes an interest in ensuring the future welfare of a dog they bred what the heck does it matter if the dog actually comes to their home or not.

Edited November 14, 2012 by espinay2

[eyeopener]

If the breeder can do the right thing by the dog without bringing it home all well n good but I personally rather reevaluate the dog myself. I don't think people should breed at all if they don't have the room or resources to take their own breedings back but that just my opinion.

[espinay2]

It is possible to reevaluate a dog without it being on your home. A dog may not need to come back to the breeders home even if they do have the ability to take it there and in some cases it may not be beneficial for the dog to be brought into the breeders home depending on its individual needs. . And there are all sorts of circumstances which may make other arrangements necessary - being in hospital, recovering from an accident, death in the family, being overseas, being retrenched from a job etc etc. No one can plan for everything no matter how hard they try. Taking them to your home may be the plan but no one can guarantee that they will be able to without a Crystal ball. To do so is head in the sand stuff. I would prefer a breeder to be ready for all contingencies and be flexible to different situations than blindly spout the 'take everything back' mantra.

Edited November 14, 2012 by espinay2