Aidan3 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 An aversive is a stimulus the dog will work to avoid. Positive means a stimulus is added (if it increases responding, it's a reinforcer; if it decreases responding, it's a punisher). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 An aversive is a stimulus the dog will work to avoid. Positive means a stimulus is added (if it increases responding, it's a reinforcer; if it decreases responding, it's a punisher). Thanks Aidan2..could you please give me an example of aversive other than correction collars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I don't know Snook, it's a complete mystery that a trainer with the experience and profile of Mark Singer proved in your situation of less value than a Delta trainer?? Sometimes though as people have pointed out on a few occasions, if the owner/handler isn't comfortable or confident in carrying out methods prescribed can amount to failure especially if there is a mindset against aversives when their default instincts are to mamby pamby their dogs perhaps??. why is it a mystery? One trainer has seemed not to be able to help, so another was tried and it worked. Sort of like using the full tool box I would have thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 An aversive is a stimulus the dog will work to avoid. Positive means a stimulus is added (if it increases responding, it's a reinforcer; if it decreases responding, it's a punisher). Thanks Aidan2..could you please give me an example of aversive other than correction collars? Certainly, aversives can be very mild and it's important to remember that it's the dogs experience that counts, not the trainers intention. So an example might be a short, sharp "uh-uh" or a spray from a water bottle. Aversives don't need to be intentional, the dog might get spooked by something falling or a door moving in the breeze. Whether something is aversive or not is distinct from whether it's a punisher or not. An aversive may not have a punishing consequence (i.e might not reduce responding). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I don't know Snook, it's a complete mystery that a trainer with the experience and profile of Mark Singer proved in your situation of less value than a Delta trainer?? Sometimes though as people have pointed out on a few occasions, if the owner/handler isn't comfortable or confident in carrying out methods prescribed can amount to failure especially if there is a mindset against aversives when their default instincts are to mamby pamby their dogs perhaps??. why is it a mystery? One trainer has seemed not to be able to help, so another was tried and it worked. Sort of like using the full tool box I would have thought. At Obedience Training a few years back I didn't gel with a particular trainer as all he wanted me to do was keep stuffing pieces of savaloy into my GSD mouth as he heeled beside me. This 6 year old dog had not been food trained at all, wasn't food oriented, didn't like savaloys all that much and I didn't like feeding them to him (too much nitrate, not part of his diet). We disagreed on this and he said...."He had used the "old school" method of using a correction collar years back and would give all his dogs a personal apology when they met up in the after life. My problem was that my dog DID respond to a simple check and release and I wasn't allowed to do this so he just pulled and took the saveloys, dropping them as we fumbled along. To me it was ridiculous and our training was going backward and I was being bullied into using his methods. I changed classes. New instructor, kind attitude and progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Removing a reward the dog values can be exceptionally aversive to the dog too. If the dog has a high value for the reward taking it away can add a lot of stress and frustration, it's how we can train behaviour extremely effectively without using physical corrections. The loss of the reward can be more aversive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I read a nice quote from Ian Dunbar once - roughly, "a dog doesn't care what quadrant you are in. He only cares whether life just got a bit better, or a bit worse, and what made that happen" :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 It's the cognitive dissonance song! Thanks to Grisha Stewart who introduced us to this at the APDT conference. We are funny creatures. My research project is on cognitive bias in dogs. I'm always trying to stress to people when I explain cognitive biases that everyone does it and they are for the most part adaptive. Cognitive dissonance is the same. Many biases are related to cognitive dissonance. I always find I feel much better if I just say "Ha. I was wrong about that. Well, I learnt something!" It doesn't hurt, and I like being right. I can't be right if I'm clinging to being wrong. Being proved wrong is almost as good as being proved right, because it's just one step away from being right. ;)Everyone feels dissonant sometimes, and if you're coming up with a zillion reasons why you are awesome and right, that's a clue that somewhere deep down you suspect you might be wrong. All the icky feelings will go away if you examine the issue critically and use something other than self-justification to decide what you believe. And don't be mean to people when they admit they might have been wrong or misinformed. They are dealing with a little cognitive crisis and such admissions should be reinforced, not punished. The next time you feel dissonant, the admission option is not a great one if you've been mean to other people who have done it, because someone is going to want to give you a taste of your own medicine. That leaves you with self-justification, which doesn't impress anyone and you certainly don't learn anything from it or help anyone else. Sorry, totally off topic, but I was kinda hoping that it might head off any nastiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aphra Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Excellent post. I think changing your mind and being willing to adapt a new viewpoint when an old one starts looking wrong is a signal of a healthy, functioning intellect. 1352761091[/url]' post='6019163']Everyone feels dissonant sometimes, and if you're coming up with a zillion reasons why you are awesome and right, that's a clue that somewhere deep down you suspect you might be wrong. All the icky feelings will go away if you examine the issue critically and use something other than self-justification to decide what you believe. And don't be mean to people when they admit they might have been wrong or misinformed. They are dealing with a little cognitive crisis and such admissions should be reinforced, not punished. The next time you feel dissonant, the admission option is not a great one if you've been mean to other people who have done it, because someone is going to want to give you a taste of your own medicine. That leaves you with self-justification, which doesn't impress anyone and you certainly don't learn anything from it or help anyone else. Sorry, totally off topic, but I was kinda hoping that it might head off any nastiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Wow corvus. That's brilliant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Yep great post Corvus, if you ever wanted to embark on a second career you might want to consider diplomacy. XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Domandal Now you can get the t-shirt http://www.cafepress.co.uk/offtheleashdoggycartoonsshop/9497093 a better look at the cartoon - here http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=385749444834599&set=a.266058050137073.65372.266050163471195&type=1&theater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadbury Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Domandal Now you can get the t-shirt http://www.cafepress.co.uk/offtheleashdoggycartoonsshop/9497093 a better look at the cartoon - here http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=385749444834599&set=a.266058050137073.65372.266050163471195&type=1&theater :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Domandal Now you can get the t-shirt http://www.cafepress...onsshop/9497093 a better look at the cartoon - here http://www.facebook....&type=1 :rofl: Oh Yeah!!! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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