My Lab Bit Me.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

m-sass

What is a "fan club" dog trainer? I'm in the fan club of several different dog trainers - none of whom would muzzle a dog aggressive dog as a first option when retraining. The whole point of distance is to get a dog that can still learn and is not overwhelmed by the distraction (good or bad) of other dogs nearby. So 20m might be excellent progress for a dog that was previously overwhelmed at 100m. I wouldn't call it "fixed" eiher.

So if we're looking for criteria when choosing dog trainers - I have seen a lot of praise for Kathy on DOL - as recommended early in this thread - OP can do a site search for trainers perth site:dolforums.com.au if he wants.

At risk of being accused of being in the fan club - you say that like it's a bad thing -

http://k9pro.com.au/services/how-to-choose-a-dog-trainer/

One of the things I like about Steve - is he won't use any method the owner/handler is uncomfortable with. And he will follow up for as long as the owner/handler wants it.

efs google unforgiving

Edited November 12, 2012 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[dancinbcs]

Layla is going for a vet checkup today, over the weekend I picked up Think Dog on my iPad, it was a worthy purchase, Layla would of been level 3 on most of the puppy test scores. It definitely took me back all the way to purchase time. The breeder we bought from donates a few of their litter to the guide dog society and we were able to purchase the pup left over.

We were initially after a black lab in the litter but they were selected by the guide dog society, I remember Layla though, she was better looking of the two golden lab pups and we were happy she was the pup not taken. I also remember her during our initial visit she was the pup not overly interested in us, more happy to explore the breeders backyard. The breeder thought Layla was the pup who had begun digging in the backyard however I noticed the the male golden lab pup digging during our visit. Layla has never been much of digger besides at the beach so we had a win there!

Training Layla is a rewarding experience for us and despite what some posters here have assumed that we are completely inept we feel despite the bite we have done a reasonable job so far, here are some of the things Layla does well.

Layla will sit and stay whilst we pour her biscuits and will not move for the food until the OK command is given.

Layla will sit on command and drop on command.

Layla will go to her bed on command.

Layla was completely house trained within a week or two of arriving home.

Layla will come when called whilst off lead in exercise areas and at home.

I have mentioned in my original post that Layla will not complete the task unless she can see the reward lately, I admit this may be due to our training, we may of been a little to comfortable where we were at once she would follow those initial commands. We will be stepping up the obedience training once the vet gives her the all clear. We are also guilty of "luring" with rewards and in fact Layla is training us now. So there is definitely improvement required on our behalf.

The only issue other than the biting we will be speaking to a behaviour expert about will be over excitement when we have guests at home, Layla needs to be isolated when we have guests as she seems to put the ear muffs on and ignores commands during visits and won't leave our guests alone. When we persevere she will eventually settle but this takes a long time.

Thanks again to all those who have offered assistance/advice

I'm glad you have organised a vet visit and bought the book. It is a rather enlightening book given your situation. I realise Layla has been trained to recognise many words but will she do them if you command them in the presence of your OH with no input from her and no treats? That will tell you if Layla is truly trained or not and I think you are correct that she has in fact been training you.

The bite is not to be taken lightly but hopefully with help now you will be able to turn the situation around and prevent it ever happening again.

[LizT]

Whatever happened to "Living and learning"...sure be guided by an "expert" but sheesh..what is an "Expert" these day anyway!

This thread is starting to sound like a "A Current Affair" or "Today Tonight" story. "..and now we hear from our resident "expert".

Getting a trainer, behaviourist or whatever to help with a problem is always going to be a risk in itself. Depending on whose "fan Club" you belong to, what successes you have had with your own or close friends personal experiences etc. and how much weight you put in hearsay.

An "expert" in this context is someone with a proven history of successfully rehabilitating large numbers of dogs displaying human aggression. Fan club is not a factor, proven track record is.

A dog that displays human aggression is at a real risk of losing it's life if the situation is not adequately addressed. Human directed aggression by pet dogs is not acceptable in today's society.

Do attempt to engage some semblance of critical thinking before posting.

Gee..I thought there was "some semblance" of critical thinking..clearly not enough..I shall run all my post by you first from now on shall I? :)

E.T.A. As stated in my other post I was referring to the ridiculous banter regarding methodology that has been running through this thread which I don't think is helpful to the OP.."at this time".

Edited November 12, 2012 by LizT

[mixeduppup]

I actually mistake men for women in real life. Although I once had a crush on a "guy" from CSI...I was very embarrassed when I was told he was in fact a she. So now I just assume everyone is a lady. :D

Shoulda gone to Specsavers

Had your eyes tested lately?

Apparently I should do that. I mistook a visitor for a man today. Technically she was in the car and I just waved hello and just before she left my friend mentioned the "man's" name was Jill...

I have gender blindness.

[Wobbly]

M-sass,

Are you aware of the Dunning-Kruger effect? Your colossally inflated over-estimation of your own capabilities as a dog behaviour expert make you a text book example. Read about your affliction here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.

Unskilled at what I started training seriously in 1974 and won my first trial entered in 1977 OMG dog trained on a choker though Given that dog training isn't the rocket science many like to make out it is, in 38 years as I have experienced, you do tend to learn something about dog behaviour believe it or not :D

This post is just one of hundreds of your efforts that are so incredibly risible, the only possible conclusion is that you're labouring under the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

You get a good hard Bull breed with dog aggression who's a bit foggy in the head, massive difference between that and a working Kelpie or GSD who can get narky around other dogs........yet the mamby-pamby may work on the Keplie and GSD using their more instinctive handler focus, yet you see these mamby-pamby trainers fit a DA Bull breed into harness and make it pull harder to reach the dog they want to tear apart.......how stupid is that??, put a prong collar on the bloody thing and teach it some consequence for going after other dogs......good ol Bull breed who is hard as nails and will respect a bit of aversive work from the handler. There is no way you will fix a good hard Bull breed dog with "serious" dog aggression without aversive measures, the mamby pamby trainers are dreaming if they think they can and as purely my opinion, I stand by that 100%

What you're saying here is that your solution to the problem of dog aggression in a Bull breed is to put the dog in a prong and let him lunge at another dog so that you can "teach it some consequence"?

You seriously think that "a good ol hard as nails bull breed" in full fight drive is going to notice your silly little prong collar any more than he'd notice a harness or perhaps a politely phrased "please stop"??

38 years of dog training and that's your solution?

[Weasels]

That's awesome news Snook, after all your work

IMHO, the goal with extreme behaviour is to get the dog closer to neutral. So if the dog is already feeling badly about something, as in fear agression/reactivity, the liberal association of a 'good' thing will diminish that underlying emotional state. And if the dog is feeling a little tooo excited about something (e.g. prey drive) a correction can help take the shine off the target and diminish that. Adding further bad things to fear, or poorly timed reinforcement to something that's already reinforcing, is where the trouble comes in. Of course the trick is working out what you are dealing with, and an experienced and professional eye is perfect for that :)

[noisymina]

Sounds good, Domandal If Layla will recall in the home, that's a good way to get her off the bed. Obviously you still need to address the fact that she bit, and so seeking advice is a good move.

One trick for getting rid of the food is to reinforce, as someone else put it earlier "average or better" responses. Also, don't have the food in your hand. You may need to "fade" it out of the picture gradually at first (let her know you've got it, then keep it hidden in your hand on the next few reps). Surprise her every now and then when she does something easy, produce a treat that she doesn't know you have.

This made me laugh. :laugh:

I can't say I have ever been able to "hide" treats from any of the dogs I've had. :D

[Weasels]

Sounds good, Domandal If Layla will recall in the home, that's a good way to get her off the bed. Obviously you still need to address the fact that she bit, and so seeking advice is a good move.

One trick for getting rid of the food is to reinforce, as someone else put it earlier "average or better" responses. Also, don't have the food in your hand. You may need to "fade" it out of the picture gradually at first (let her know you've got it, then keep it hidden in your hand on the next few reps). Surprise her every now and then when she does something easy, produce a treat that she doesn't know you have.

This made me laugh. :laugh:

I can't say I have ever been able to "hide" treats from any of the dogs I've had. :D

I was thinking the same thing :laugh: Doubly so for any labradors I've met!

[Aidan3]

Point is they expect you might produce one at any moment :laugh:

[huski]

Sounds good, Domandal If Layla will recall in the home, that's a good way to get her off the bed. Obviously you still need to address the fact that she bit, and so seeking advice is a good move.

One trick for getting rid of the food is to reinforce, as someone else put it earlier "average or better" responses. Also, don't have the food in your hand. You may need to "fade" it out of the picture gradually at first (let her know you've got it, then keep it hidden in your hand on the next few reps). Surprise her every now and then when she does something easy, produce a treat that she doesn't know you have.

This made me laugh. :laugh:

I can't say I have ever been able to "hide" treats from any of the dogs I've had. :D

I was thinking the same thing :laugh: Doubly so for any labradors I've met!

LOL or a beagle... sometimes she knows I have food on me when I don't even know it's there! (i.e. a piece of liver treat in my pocket I'd forgotten was there).

I am happy to tell my dogs that I am giving them the opportunity to earn x y or z reward, but the key is making sure they know that the reward could come at any time and that the 'sequence' for gaining a reward doesn't involve certain triggers like the sight of the reward, or certain cues the dog can pick up from your body language.

[m-sass]

M-sass,

Are you aware of the Dunning-Kruger effect? Your colossally inflated over-estimation of your own capabilities as a dog behaviour expert make you a text book example. Read about your affliction here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.

Unskilled at what I started training seriously in 1974 and won my first trial entered in 1977 OMG dog trained on a choker though Given that dog training isn't the rocket science many like to make out it is, in 38 years as I have experienced, you do tend to learn something about dog behaviour believe it or not :D

This post is just one of hundreds of your efforts that are so incredibly risible, the only possible conclusion is that you're labouring under the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

You get a good hard Bull breed with dog aggression who's a bit foggy in the head, massive difference between that and a working Kelpie or GSD who can get narky around other dogs........yet the mamby-pamby may work on the Keplie and GSD using their more instinctive handler focus, yet you see these mamby-pamby trainers fit a DA Bull breed into harness and make it pull harder to reach the dog they want to tear apart.......how stupid is that??, put a prong collar on the bloody thing and teach it some consequence for going after other dogs......good ol Bull breed who is hard as nails and will respect a bit of aversive work from the handler. There is no way you will fix a good hard Bull breed dog with "serious" dog aggression without aversive measures, the mamby pamby trainers are dreaming if they think they can and as purely my opinion, I stand by that 100%

What you're saying here is that your solution to the problem of dog aggression in a Bull breed is to put the dog in a prong and let him lunge at another dog so that you can "teach it some consequence"?

You seriously think that "a good ol hard as nails bull breed" in full fight drive is going to notice your silly little prong collar any more than he'd notice a harness or perhaps a politely phrased "please stop"??

38 years of dog training and that's your solution?

Just goes to show you can't fix stupid. :laugh:

It would appear that you're functionally braindead, and thus I have no further interest in interacting with you.

Ohhh, that's your problem Wobbly didn't like my Bull breed comment......perhaps you should ask the professionals who need fight drive in a working capacity why they use GSD's and Malinois and not Bull breeds......there is a reason for that :D

The rest of your post, who cares pffff.

[m-sass]

'Snook' timestamp='1352710178' post='6018634']

Given that I own a bull breed with fear aggression I'd love to hear m-sass's theory on why we made no progress in reducing his reactivity toward other dogs when following the guidance of a well-respected behavourist whose methods involve establishing yourself as pack leader and using aversive tools and methods, but in the roughly three months that we've been seeing a behaviourist who uses positive reinforcement and counter-conditioning Justice has come ahead in leaps and bounds? He now mostly stays under threshold, even when an off leash dog races up to him, and can not only walk side by side with other dogs but is relaxed and happy about it and has even been able to go as far as playing off leash with a few dogs in controlled conditions. He also now displays appropriate communication with other dogs in most situations, such as turning his head away when he's uncomfortable instead of lashing out, and you can see him taking a moment to think about what he's doing and make better choices (such as turning to me for help) instead of flying straight in to fight mode. I think we'll stick with the "namby pamby" training methods thanks very much.

We are not talking about fear aggression Snook if that's the diagnosis of your dog's behaviour?? What are you telling us that Mark Singer failed to povide the right training advice and now you have someone else??

[Wobbly]

Given that I own a bull breed with fear aggression I'd love to hear m-sass's theory on why we made no progress in reducing his reactivity toward other dogs when following the guidance of a well-respected behavourist whose methods involve establishing yourself as pack leader and using aversive tools and methods, but in the roughly three months that we've been seeing a behaviourist who uses positive reinforcement and counter-conditioning Justice has come ahead in leaps and bounds? He now mostly stays under threshold, even when an off leash dog races up to him, and can not only walk side by side with other dogs but is relaxed and happy about it and has even been able to go as far as playing off leash with a few dogs in controlled conditions. He also now displays appropriate communication with other dogs in most situations, such as turning his head away when he's uncomfortable instead of lashing out, and you can see him taking a moment to think about what he's doing and make better choices (such as turning to me for help) instead of flying straight in to fight mode. I think we'll stick with the "namby pamby" training methods thanks very much.

I've watched your progress with Justice in the reactive dogs thread, Snook, and what you've achieved has been absolutely awesome! It's incredible what a transformation a dedicated owner can achieve with the help of a really great behaviourist. "D Really amazing, inspiratonal stuff.

[corvus]

We are not talking about fear aggression Snook if that's the diagnosis of your dog's behaviour?? What are you telling us that Mark Singer failed to povide the right training advice and now you have someone else??

I didn't name anyone m-sass nor am I denigrating anyone's training methods. I am merely pointing out that the "namby pamby" methods as you call them can have amazing results with both bull breeds and aggression and that aversive methods aren't necessarily the best for all dogs. According to both behaviourists I've seen the majority of dog aggression is fear based and yes, both consider Justice to be fear aggressive. We are currently being helped by Amy from Advance Behavioural Training.

ETA: I note that you didn't actually respond to my query about how you would explain our progress using positive training methods?

Ah, see, Justice can't be 'seriously' DA. Ergo, dicking around just within threshold could possibly be somewhat effective. ;)

Regarding food, I just carry it around most of the time. I got upset about all the opportunities for reinforcement I kept missing. :p The treat pouch is part of the furniture. Even sticking my hand in it doesn't mean they are about to get a treat. However I do have to be careful when I'm opening the pocket that holds the clicker. A certain little grey dog who can read my partner's lips when he mouths "dinner" also knows which pocket the clicker lives in.

Teaching an 'up' and 'off' behaviour is really easy. I seem to remember I did this with one of my dogs, presumably because he was resisting being sent off the couch. It only took 5 minutes to have him happily jumping on and off the couch on cue. I think I followed it up with another 5 minute session the next day, and that was it. No more resistance.

It's not surprising that Layla would treat one person in the family differently to the other and it may not have anything at all to do with status. My partner and I share most of the dog duties equally, and while I do more of the training, my partner still does some. I've been trying to figure out how my partner cues a down, because for some reason one of the dogs frequently performs faster and cleaner downs for him than he does for me. Dog will down for anyone at all AFAIK, but no one gets downs routinely as fast as my partner. We have different ways of communicating with the dogs, different habits, different body language, different ways of signalling and different ways of interacting. Some things I do with them and some things he does with them and some things we do all together. They are capable of such social subtlety that I can't imagine how we could expect that rules that hold for one person should automatically hold for others in the dog's mind. We know dogs aren't great at generalising. Treating people a certain way based on their perceived status in a hierarchy that may or may not exist is a fair bit of generalising.

[m-sass]

'Snook' timestamp='1352710178' post='6018634']

Given that I own a bull breed with fear aggression I'd love to hear m-sass's theory on why we made no progress in reducing his reactivity toward other dogs when following the guidance of a well-respected behavourist whose methods involve establishing yourself as pack leader and using aversive tools and methods, but in the roughly three months that we've been seeing a behaviourist who uses positive reinforcement and counter-conditioning Justice has come ahead in leaps and bounds? He now mostly stays under threshold, even when an off leash dog races up to him, and can not only walk side by side with other dogs but is relaxed and happy about it and has even been able to go as far as playing off leash with a few dogs in controlled conditions. He also now displays appropriate communication with other dogs in most situations, such as turning his head away when he's uncomfortable instead of lashing out, and you can see him taking a moment to think about what he's doing and make better choices (such as turning to me for help) instead of flying straight in to fight mode. I think we'll stick with the "namby pamby" training methods thanks very much.

We are not talking about fear aggression Snook if that's the diagnosis of your dog's behaviour?? What are you telling us that Mark Singer failed to povide the right training advice and now you have someone else??

I didn't name anyone m-sass nor am I denigrating anyone's training methods. I am merely pointing out that the "namby pamby" methods as you call them can have amazing results with both bull breeds and aggression and that aversive methods aren't necessarily the best for all dogs. According to both behaviourists I've seen the majority of dog aggression is fear based and yes, both consider Justice to be fear aggressive. We are currently being helped by Amy from Advance Behavioural Training.

ETA: I note that you didn't actually respond to my query about how you would explain our progress using positive training methods?

I don't know Snook, it's a complete mystery that a trainer with the experience and profile of Mark Singer proved in your situation of less value than a Delta trainer?? Sometimes though as people have pointed out on a few occasions, if the owner/handler isn't comfortable or confident in carrying out methods prescribed can amount to failure especially if there is a mindset against aversives when their default instincts are to mamby pamby their dogs perhaps??.

What I can tell you from my own experiences and what I have seen on numerous occasions, dogs that have been rehabilitated with aversives that positive trainers couldn't address successfully, but ideally what is best, is what best suits the particular dog.......no one methods fits all IMHO aversives or positive.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

If I forget I have food in my pocketses - evil hound will remind me. She's quite good at pick pocketing too - mainly for kleenex. If it's a bit of kibble or liver treat she just nudges the pocket and barks at me until I check. And then I either make her do 20 tricks for it, or I put it away with the rest of the treats and ignore the barking.

I like her to indicate stuff she wants with barking - but my rule is - I cave as soon as possible or I don't cave at all. I wish parents would follow that rule with toddlers who want a lolly at the supermarket checkout. Either treat right away or never. Don't make the rest of us put up with 10 minutes of screaming and then cave. ARRRGGHHH

[Weasels]

Either treat right away or never.

Ugh yes my husband is the worst for this! Fortunately the dogs have figured out which of us is consistent and which one isn't so it only affects him :laugh:

[m-sass]

I don't have a problem with the use of aversives provided they are used correctly so that part of your assessment is completely wrong. I don't have an issue with check chains or prong collars being used when needed but I find your approach to them and attitude that they are the be all and end all of working with more challengng dogs very disturbing. I am not going to debate the details of the sessions we had with you because as I stated earlier, it is not my intention to denigrate one behaviourist in favour of another. Your sentence that I have bolded is completely contradictory to the vast majority of what you preach on this forum.

Snook, that's exactly what you did and was the nature of your post to tell us how your experience with different methods from different trainers affected your training progress on the theme that the pack leader and aversives model didn't work, more than likely because you didn't follow the procedure that was prescribed properly??. What I advocate which I will make very clear is a "balanced" training approach meaning experience in applying all quadrants and the willingness to do so when required.

My point is, you can't train every dog "successfully" with positive reinforcement at every stage of ingrained misbehaviour that a dog may have developed. There are plenty of instances where aversive training is the best and fastest remedy for the dog and trainers who refuse to accept this IMHO is a misjustice to the dog's rehabilitation process to support a method over the best interests of the dog and owner. Perhaps ask Mark Singer how many Delta rejects he's saved from Euthansia where their methods didn't rehabilitate aggressive dogs who they declared untrainable??.

Edited November 12, 2012 by m-sass

[Aidan3]

No, Snook did not denigrate another trainer, m-sass. But I'm sure your mate is thrilled that you brought his name into the conversation.

Perhaps you should stop digging that hole now? I don't think too many people are going to be fooled by the old "blame the client" routine - particularly when anyone can view Snooks posting history and see exactly how committed she has been to both trainers she has worked with.

What you're experiencing right now is called "cognitive dissonance", and predictably, you'll find a way to explain it away so that you can justify your beliefs. It's human nature.

[LizT]

Could someone please define "adversive" and "positive" for me?

Eg. Is "adversive" when you give an 8 weeks old puppy a gutteral "Nahhah" to distract it from chewing on something it shouldn't?

Is "positive' when you make a big fuss of a puppy when it comes to you when you called it?

Or is adversive only an extreme physical correction and positive is a lovely treat in the gob?