My Lab Bit Me.

[m-sass]

Probably, I had one recently who came wearing one. Same dog went to a big doggy charity event without one just recently, and was marvellously behaved. I'm not sure if his owner is on DOL, but she might chime in if she is.

I've never claimed to be 'purely positive'. I have used aversive tools but not directly in dog aggression behaviour mod. But you missed the point anyway, I am pragmatic, I use aversives, but I do not argue that they are necessary or that anyone who doesn't use them is incompetent.

Eta: and no, I did not recommend the prong collar for that client. Another behaviourist did.

You posts reflected that your mind is closed to the likes of prongs etc and I recalled seeing a photo of the dog wearing a prong said to belong to your training group and assumed that you do use prongs when required in certain cases? There are a lot of trainers who will not have anything to do with aversive tools and methods whatsoever and they take on dogs way beyond their training capabilities which are the character of dogs easily remedied with aversive methods and they restrict people achieving good results by limiting their regimes to select methods only which may not be the most appropriate methods for the particular dog.

My point depending on the character of the dog, if a behavioural issue needs to be addressed, a trainer with a full toolbox with experience of using a 'full' complement of tools and methods is more appropriately equipped to handle a wider range of issues than a trainer who knows only one method with limited tooling??.

Nope, I've never recommended a prong.

You seem to have this idea that the dogs a person is equipped to handle is correlated with the number of tools they use. Sorry, but it's not about the tool. What is "method-pushing" (your label) if not what you've written above? Who are you to decide for dog trainers what the "most appropriate method" is?

You're entitled to your opinion, but what you've written above is a judgment of the ability of other trainers which is based on opinions, not facts.

Yes Aidan, that is my opinion that trainers who are not well knowledged on prongs from hands on experience are not informed enough to have a valid opinion to exclude them from a training regime on the basis that what they have to offer is better without direct comparison.....is that fair??.

[Aidan3]

M-sass, it's my opinion that you are not experienced or competent enough with behaviour modification, particularly positive reinforcement, extinction procedures, functional negative reinforcement, classical conditioning and classical inhibition to have an opinion. Is that fair?

In any case, not recommending a prong says nothing about my experience with correction collars. You make a lot of assumptions.

[JulesP]

Why are you all talking about prongs and e-collars? Surely a electric cattle prod would be much more appropriate in this situation.

[Aidan3]

Why are you all talking about prongs and e-collars? Surely a electric cattle prod would be much more appropriate in this situation.

Lack of experience, Jules, unable to make a direct comparison :laugh:

[m-sass]

M-sass, it's my opinion that you are not experienced or competent enough with behaviour modification, particularly positive reinforcement, extinction procedures, functional negative reinforcement, classical conditioning and classical inhibition to have an opinion. Is that fair?

In any case, not recommending a prong says nothing about my experience with correction collars. You make a lot of assumptions.

Why does Steve Courtney recommend and use prongs then Aidan.......is he not experienced or competent enough with behaviour modification, particularly positive reinforcement, extinction procedures, functional negative reinforcement, classical conditioning and classical inhibition to have an informed opinion to exclude their use from his training regimes??

[JulesP]

M-sass, it's my opinion that you are not experienced or competent enough with behaviour modification, particularly positive reinforcement, extinction procedures, functional negative reinforcement, classical conditioning and classical inhibition to have an opinion. Is that fair?

In any case, not recommending a prong says nothing about my experience with correction collars. You make a lot of assumptions.

Why does Steve Courtney recommend and use prongs then Aidan.......is he not experienced or competent enough with behaviour modification, particularly positive reinforcement, extinction procedures, functional negative reinforcement, classical conditioning and classical inhibition to have an informed opinion to exclude their use from his training regimes??

Totally irrelevant to the thread.

[mixeduppup]

I feel like I've walked into the prong collar thread :laugh:

Good luck with your lab, I'm sure a few pointers and 1 or 2 sessions will help you out immensely.

[JulesP]

I feel like I've walked into the prong collar thread :laugh:

That is because some people are extremely tedious and just churn out the same crap constantly.

[Aidan3]

M-sass, it's my opinion that you are not experienced or competent enough with behaviour modification, particularly positive reinforcement, extinction procedures, functional negative reinforcement, classical conditioning and classical inhibition to have an opinion. Is that fair?

In any case, not recommending a prong says nothing about my experience with correction collars. You make a lot of assumptions.

Why does Steve Courtney recommend and use prongs then Aidan.......is he not experienced or competent enough with behaviour modification, particularly positive reinforcement, extinction procedures, functional negative reinforcement, classical conditioning and classical inhibition to have an informed opinion to exclude their use from his training regimes??

Steve and I recommend each other and don't judge each other as incompetent based on our tools of choice. Steve realises something that you seem incapable of understanding - that it's NOT THE TOOL.

Our criteria for judging another trainer is ability.

[LizT]

A vet behaviourist I respect, said - if the dog doesn't want to get off the couch - put a lead on and use that to remove the dog.

Especially if the dog thinks the lead means good things like a walk. Reward with praise when the dog is off.

And then you might want to teach on/up and off, the same way you teach geddit and give... Make sure you're rewarding not luring or the dog will soon be training you. And "go to your mat / bed" may also help, more practice on that one. Is her bed as comfy as yours? And she's always going to want to be where the people are.

And I also agree with the recommendations to get an expert in.

Agree Mrs. RB. As an example a frighten dog of lets say hypothetically "Rescue Background" might be hesitant in getting out of a crate, yes?

So, would you drag it out by the collar and risk getting bitten, or click on a lead and coax it out and reward it's positive response with a 'walk'. Same scenario with a client at the Groomers. I personally would take my chances with the lead.

[Guest Labradork]

I feel like I've walked into the prong collar thread :laugh:

That is because some people are extremely tedious and just churn out the same crap constantly.

And because some people feel the need to defend their use of prong collars ad nauseum.

[mixeduppup]

I feel like I've walked into the prong collar thread :laugh:

That is because some people are extremely tedious and just churn out the same crap constantly.

And because some people feel the need to defend their use of prong collars ad nauseum.

I just don't see how a prong collar would be effective in this situation...it would be a bit overkillish..

[m-sass]

Steve and I recommend each other and don't judge each other as incompetent based on our tools of choice. Steve realises something that you seem incapable of understanding - that it's NOT THE TOOL.

So why does Steve use prongs given that my opinion of their value according to you means that I am not experienced or competent enough with behaviour modification, particularly positive reinforcement, extinction procedures, functional negative reinforcement, classical conditioning and classical inhibition to have an opinion?

Wouldn't the same logic apply to Steve then, otherwise if he had a handle on dog behaviour as well as you do, like you, he wouldn't recommend and use prongs either would he

Edited November 11, 2012 by m-sass

[m-sass]

Sorry, double post

Edited November 11, 2012 by m-sass

[corvus]

Steve and I recommend each other and don't judge each other as incompetent based on our tools of choice. Steve realises something that you seem incapable of understanding - that it's NOT THE TOOL.

So why does Steve use prongs given that my opinion of their value according to you means that I am not experienced or competent enough with behaviour modification, particularly positive reinforcement, extinction procedures, functional negative reinforcement, classical conditioning and classical inhibition to have an opinion?

Wouldn't the same logic apply to Steve then, otherwise if he had a handle on dog behaviour as well as you do, like you, he wouldn't recommend and use prongs either would he

You are really having problems with this, aren't you? It's NOT the tool. Willingness to use a tool does not equal knowledge of that tool and it certainly does not equal knowledge of learning theory and applied behaviour analysis. Lots of people actually know quite a bit about prongs and opt not to use them. It is possible that someone may be both well informed and choose not to use a prong. And it's possible for a person to be very well informed and choose to use a prong. Both conditions can occur!

Edited November 11, 2012 by corvus

[Wobbly]

M-sass,

Are you aware of the Dunning-Kruger effect? Your colossally inflated over-estimation of your own capabilities as a dog behaviour expert make you a text book example. Read about your affliction here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Wobbly

[Domandal]

Layla is going for a vet checkup today, over the weekend I picked up Think Dog on my iPad, it was a worthy purchase, Layla would of been level 3 on most of the puppy test scores. It definitely took me back all the way to purchase time. The breeder we bought from donates a few of their litter to the guide dog society and we were able to purchase the pup left over.

We were initially after a black lab in the litter but they were selected by the guide dog society, I remember Layla though, she was better looking of the two golden lab pups and we were happy she was the pup not taken. I also remember her during our initial visit she was the pup not overly interested in us, more happy to explore the breeders backyard. The breeder thought Layla was the pup who had begun digging in the backyard however I noticed the the male golden lab pup digging during our visit. Layla has never been much of digger besides at the beach so we had a win there!

Training Layla is a rewarding experience for us and despite what some posters here have assumed that we are completely inept we feel despite the bite we have done a reasonable job so far, here are some of the things Layla does well.

Layla will sit and stay whilst we pour her biscuits and will not move for the food until the OK command is given.

Layla will sit on command and drop on command.

Layla will go to her bed on command.

Layla was completely house trained within a week or two of arriving home.

Layla will come when called whilst off lead in exercise areas and at home.

I have mentioned in my original post that Layla will not complete the task unless she can see the reward lately, I admit this may be due to our training, we may of been a little to comfortable where we were at once she would follow those initial commands. We will be stepping up the obedience training once the vet gives her the all clear. We are also guilty of "luring" with rewards and in fact Layla is training us now. So there is definitely improvement required on our behalf.

The only issue other than the biting we will be speaking to a behaviour expert about will be over excitement when we have guests at home, Layla needs to be isolated when we have guests as she seems to put the ear muffs on and ignores commands during visits and won't leave our guests alone. When we persevere she will eventually settle but this takes a long time.

Thanks again to all those who have offered assistance/advice

Edited November 11, 2012 by Domandal

[Domandal]

So no vet visit?

Pretty brave to diagnose via the Internet. Let's hope the OP sees Kathy and doesn't just follow msass' advice and land up with a dog redirecting their aggression on the OP. (has happened to at least one person I know).

I would hope a Vet visit is one of those "tools" mention in the full tool-box talk.

The OP mentions she has had the pup since 7 weeks..this to me means a less than careful breeder and breeding. At two years of age she may amongst also having dominence and obedience issues also have physical problems beginning to manifest, such as sore hips, she may have been pushed (whilston the bed) in a manner that is very uncomfortable to her and add this too an already dominent bitch, not sure if she is entire or desexed but IN MY OPIBION, an entire bitch can sometimes be quite full on...they are the only kind of bitches I have ever owned in 51 years.

So yes, don't completely discount a physical trigger without checking first.

Yes Layla has been desexed. In regards to the release of the puppy at 7 weeks it was almost 8 weeks, the breeder apprehensively let us take her a few days earlier as I was keen to have a full 2 weeks with her prior to me flying out for work.

Oh and I'm a man everybody lol.

[Tazar]

I think Layla may be hitting that little bump in the road which can occur when dogs are in or around 2 year old. Teenage years is the best description I have heard. Pushing the boundaries a bit more than usual to see what she can get away with, and selective deafness at known commands.

If Layla does all the things you say she does (and I am not doubting you) then you have put in lots more time than the average dog owner, good on you I say

A lab getting excited over a visitor...never :)

[Domandal]

I think Layla may be hitting that little bump in the road which can occur when dogs are in or around 2 year old. Teenage years is the best description I have heard. Pushing the boundaries a bit more than usual to see what she can get away with, and selective deafness at known commands.

If Layla does all the things you say she does (and I am not doubting you) then you have put in lots more time than the average dog owner, good on you I say

A lab getting excited over a visitor...never :)

Thank You, I thought that must be the case that the average owner does not train as often as we have as lot of people gush over her when she responds to our commands when in public, pet stores and animal exercise areas. Even the sit and drop commands people seemed to impress people.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Domandal