My Lab Bit Me.

[espinay2]

Susanne clothier's book 'bones will rain from the sky' is another useful read. She deals with just this type of situation and the disastrous consequences of escalation as well as the alternatives.

Another useful read is Patricia McConnell's booklet on how to be the leader of the pack (and have your dog love you for it).

Glad you are getting some professional assistance. That is definitely the first and right step.

[Aidan3]

I'm a "mamby-pamby" trainer and I've never had this sort of problem. Maybe I've been lucky?

Glad the OP is going to see a behaviourist and vet.

[Nekhbet]

Wow, we're still talking about pack hierarchies in 2012? On a dog forum?

You can't discount the theory totally, but to rely on it 100% as being the root of all problems is not believable either.

I'm inclined to agree though, on spoiled, no consequence labrador flexing her now adult muscle at an owner that has shown little consistency or leadership in the dogs eyes, and shes fighting fire with fire.

[LizT]

So no vet visit?

Pretty brave to diagnose via the Internet. Let's hope the OP sees Kathy and doesn't just follow msass' advice and land up with a dog redirecting their aggression on the OP. (has happened to at least one person I know).

I would hope a Vet visit is one of those "tools" mention in the full tool-box talk.

The OP mentions she has had the pup since 7 weeks..this to me means a less than careful breeder and breeding. At two years of age she may amongst also having dominence and obedience issues also have physical problems beginning to manifest, such as sore hips, she may have been pushed (whilston the bed) in a manner that is very uncomfortable to her and add this too an already dominent bitch, not sure if she is entire or desexed but IN MY OPIBION, an entire bitch can sometimes be quite full on...they are the only kind of bitches I have ever owned in 51 years.

So yes, don't completely discount a physical trigger without checking first.

Edited November 10, 2012 by LizT

[m-sass]

I'm a "mamby-pamby" trainer and I've never had this sort of problem. Maybe I've been lucky?

Glad the OP is going to see a behaviourist and vet.

Trainers who only work in "mamby pamby" tells me they have never learned "yank and crank" to understand the benefits in some behavioural areas with particular characters although with the evolution of tools where the prong replaced the choker and the Ecollar replaced the choker and long line makes the physical "yank and crank" redundant although the principal is the same.

I think what annoys me most about limiting training methods or more commonly anti-aversion regimes is the insistance of these people to portray the negatives of aversive training as a given in every situation, you will cause fallout, you will hurt your dog, you will destroy your dog/handler bond, your dog will redirect aggressively and bite you etc etc is all bullshit for the most part........all of this can happen in extreme circumstances but in reality and the likelihood of these terrible side effects occurring are virtually nil when any forms of aversion is trained by someone experienced in the method and used on the right dogs.

You get a good hard Bull breed with dog aggression who's a bit foggy in the head, massive difference between that and a working Kelpie or GSD who can get narky around other dogs........yet the mamby-pamby may work on the Keplie and GSD using their more instinctive handler focus, yet you see these mamby-pamby trainers fit a DA Bull breed into harness and make it pull harder to reach the dog they want to tear apart.......how stupid is that??, put a prong collar on the bloody thing and teach it some consequence for going after other dogs......good ol Bull breed who is hard as nails and will respect a bit of aversive work from the handler. There is no way you will fix a good hard Bull breed dog with "serious" dog aggression without aversive measures, the mamby pamby trainers are dreaming if they think they can and as purely my opinion, I stand by that 100%

[Aidan3]

There is no way you will fix a good hard Bull breed dog with "serious" dog aggression without aversive measures, the mamby pamby trainers are dreaming if they think they can and as purely my opinion, I stand by that 100%

Well I'm glad that at least you acknowledge that it's purely your opinion, because those of us who can and do would understandably hold a different opinion :laugh:

Given that the OP's dog is a Labrador, a breed at least as biddable and handler-focused as a GSD or Kelpie, it's good to know that even m-sass thinks the "mamby-pamby" methods have a shot.

[OSoSwift]

I agree a full medical work up is always the place to start when you have any sort of issue such as you have experienced. Many times there are no medical reasons but it is not fair to a dog to be trying to fix a behaviour that is only showing due to pain/discomfort.

Personally I like to the use the method that gets the best result with the least amount of going head on - if that makes sense. Start down work up. No point going out guns blasing if a water pistol will work.

The very best of luck with your girl. Kathy may be deemed Namby pamby by some but her results speak for themselves.

To the OP my husband has alway had some "issues" in relation to our dogs. there has never been any aggression shown but the Dobes always looked to me without fail and literally told him to go abg his head on many occassions. The Whippets will listen.....in their own time. Pretty much without fail they have all listened to me the first time. Occassionally they would check to make sure the rules were the same as the day before - the Dobes mainly - but I am the one they see as the person to listen do. That is most likely because I have trained, fed and done most of the day to day stuff with them and the possessor of all the good stuff in life, so that would be natural.

Oh I tell a lie, once when my Dobe had a puppy - yes just one - my OH went to touch the said puppy when she was around a week old. He got "bitten" firmly but the skin wasn't broken and she growled first. I could climb in and out and sleep in there and she didn't care less, infact she used it to catch up on her sleep :) I told him he should of listened the first time she told him to back off. She never did it before or after that time.

[m-sass]

There is no way you will fix a good hard Bull breed dog with "serious" dog aggression without aversive measures, the mamby pamby trainers are dreaming if they think they can and as purely my opinion, I stand by that 100%

Well I'm glad that at least you acknowledge that it's purely your opinion, because those of us who can and do would understandably hold a different opinion :laugh:

Given that the OP's dog is a Labrador, a breed at least as biddable and handler-focused as a GSD or Kelpie, it's good to know that even m-sass thinks the "mamby-pamby" methods have a shot.

Hmmmmm, so who is the trainer named Aidan in Tassie training a GSD with a prong collar??.........saw a photo of the dog wearing one

[Aidan3]

Probably, I had one recently who came wearing one. Same dog went to a big doggy charity event without one just recently, and was marvellously behaved. I'm not sure if his owner is on DOL, but she might chime in if she is.

I've never claimed to be 'purely positive'. I have used aversive tools but not directly in dog aggression behaviour mod. But you missed the point anyway, I am pragmatic, I use aversives, but I do not argue that they are necessary or that anyone who doesn't use them is incompetent.

Eta: and no, I did not recommend the prong collar for that client. Another behaviourist did.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Aidan2

[corvus]

...

Edited November 11, 2012 by corvus

[Wobbly]

M-Sass you are just so incredibly misinformed about Bull Breeds I don't even know where to start.

Happily enough, your opinion on the subject is so completely irrelevant I don't feel I need bother wasting my time correcting you. :D

[corvus]

There is no way you will fix a good hard Bull breed dog with "serious" dog aggression without aversive measures, the mamby pamby trainers are dreaming if they think they can and as purely my opinion, I stand by that 100%

Well I'm glad that at least you acknowledge that it's purely your opinion, because those of us who can and do would understandably hold a different opinion :laugh:

But Aidan, if you have fixed a good hard Bull breed dog with dog aggression without aversive measures, it can't have had "serious" dog aggression. Only mamby pamby dog aggression.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

A vet behaviourist I respect, said - if the dog doesn't want to get off the couch - put a lead on and use that to remove the dog.

Especially if the dog thinks the lead means good things like a walk. Reward with praise when the dog is off.

And then you might want to teach on/up and off, the same way you teach geddit and give... Make sure you're rewarding not luring or the dog will soon be training you. And "go to your mat / bed" may also help, more practice on that one. Is her bed as comfy as yours? And she's always going to want to be where the people are.

And I also agree with the recommendations to get an expert in.

[m-sass]

Probably, I had one recently who came wearing one. Same dog went to a big doggy charity event without one just recently, and was marvellously behaved. I'm not sure if his owner is on DOL, but she might chime in if she is.

I've never claimed to be 'purely positive'. I have used aversive tools but not directly in dog aggression behaviour mod. But you missed the point anyway, I am pragmatic, I use aversives, but I do not argue that they are necessary or that anyone who doesn't use them is incompetent.

Eta: and no, I did not recommend the prong collar for that client. Another behaviourist did.

You posts reflected that your mind is closed to the likes of prongs etc and I recalled seeing a photo of the dog wearing a prong said to belong to your training group and assumed that you do use prongs when required in certain cases? There are a lot of trainers who will not have anything to do with aversive tools and methods whatsoever and they take on dogs way beyond their training capabilities which are the character of dogs easily remedied with aversive methods and they restrict people achieving good results by limiting their regimes to select methods only which may not be the most appropriate methods for the particular dog.

My point depending on the character of the dog, if a behavioural issue needs to be addressed, a trainer with a full toolbox with experience of using a 'full' complement of tools and methods is more appropriately equipped to handle a wider range of issues than a trainer who knows only one method with limited tooling??.

[Simply Grand]

Mrs RB, I did almost exactly that this arvo when Quinn opened the door to the spare room (a new talent of hers :eye roll:) and took herself in and onto the spare bed. I didn't use a lead, although I gave her collar a tug, which she resisted by just holding firm - I assume she found being on the forbidden spare bed very rewarding. I then realised that rather than physically lugging her off the bed, I should just go out of the room calling her excitedly and then praising her when she came out of the room (then

closing the door and promptly installing a lock :laugh: )

It worked for me as I have spent every day since Quinn arrived (she's 12 mths old) doing NILIF, reward based training, building our communication etc, and she's never shown even the slightest aggression or defiance (apart from brief non-violent resistance, like she did when I tried to pull her off the bed).

It doesn't sound like the OP has that sort of training relationship with Layla at this stage but I think they should be aiming for that

Edited November 11, 2012 by Simply Grand

[m-sass]

M-Sass you are just so incredibly misinformed about Bull Breeds I don't even know where to start.

Happily enough, your opinion on the subject is so completely irrelevant I don't feel I need bother wasting my time correcting you. :D

I only address what's in front of me on the leash, the hardest dogs character wise with the most serious dog aggression I have seen personally have been Bull breeds of some description. The "most" dog aggressive dogs I have seen are little dogs that the owners can easily drag around on their retractor leads and rarely seek help for their seriously aggressive behaviour.

[Aidan3]

Probably, I had one recently who came wearing one. Same dog went to a big doggy charity event without one just recently, and was marvellously behaved. I'm not sure if his owner is on DOL, but she might chime in if she is.

I've never claimed to be 'purely positive'. I have used aversive tools but not directly in dog aggression behaviour mod. But you missed the point anyway, I am pragmatic, I use aversives, but I do not argue that they are necessary or that anyone who doesn't use them is incompetent.

Eta: and no, I did not recommend the prong collar for that client. Another behaviourist did.

You posts reflected that your mind is closed to the likes of prongs etc and I recalled seeing a photo of the dog wearing a prong said to belong to your training group and assumed that you do use prongs when required in certain cases? There are a lot of trainers who will not have anything to do with aversive tools and methods whatsoever and they take on dogs way beyond their training capabilities which are the character of dogs easily remedied with aversive methods and they restrict people achieving good results by limiting their regimes to select methods only which may not be the most appropriate methods for the particular dog.

My point depending on the character of the dog, if a behavioural issue needs to be addressed, a trainer with a full toolbox with experience of using a 'full' complement of tools and methods is more appropriately equipped to handle a wider range of issues than a trainer who knows only one method with limited tooling??.

Nope, I've never recommended a prong.

You seem to have this idea that the dogs a person is equipped to handle is correlated with the number of tools they use. Sorry, but it's not about the tool. What is "method-pushing" (your label) if not what you've written above? Who are you to decide for dog trainers what the "most appropriate method" is?

You're entitled to your opinion, but what you've written above is a judgment of the ability of other trainers which is based on opinions, not facts.

[Domandal]

Wow, we're still talking about pack hierarchies in 2012? On a dog forum?

You can't discount the theory totally, but to rely on it 100% as being the root of all problems is not believable either.

I'm inclined to agree though, on spoiled, no consequence labrador flexing her now adult muscle at an owner that has shown little consistency or leadership in the dogs eyes, and shes fighting fire with fire.

You are assuming a lot from the little I've told about our dog.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Simply Grand - it's harder for a dog that doesn't want to give up its spot - to bite you - if you've put the lead on and are 2m down the other end. It's pretty easy for them to give you a "leave me alone" bite if you're holding the collar.

I frequently have to put the lead on my dog to get her off the couch - when I want to go for walks. But she's getting better. She never tries to hold her place on the couch or the bed if I want it. I think she finds it a bit too uncomfortable when I squish her or get into the bed under her - she's not much of a lap dog. Though she did make an uncomfortable exception during the last thunderstorm.

[Wobbly]

I guess there's one positive lesson that Domandal (the OP) can take from M-Sass in this thread. And that's a very clear demonstration that all trainers are not created equal.

There are plenty of trainers out there like M-Sass, labouring under the Dunning-Kreuger effect, absolutely convinced of their own proficiency, when in reality their grasp on dog behaviour is, at best, tenuous.

Relying on someone with a shaky grasp on dog behaviour to help you diagnose & rehabilitate a serious behaviour problem like human directed aggression well.... best case scenario you've wasted your money and time, more likely they will lay the foundations for tragedy.

Domandal, I believe you've been given a really good recommendation for a reputable, qualified and professional behaviourist earlier on the thread, which will make all the difference in the world to your outcome.

Good luck, she is certainly a lovely looking dog, I hope it all goes well both with the vet visit and the behaviourist.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Wobbly