Skruffy n Flea Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 hello :) i hope i'm posting in the right place! this is not an overly vexing situation; i'm just trying to understand the dynamics between my girl and boy. i thought 'hierarchy' in a pack was generally clearly defined. bella [JR/malt; 4 last july] was here first; byron we brought home 12 months later [malt/tibby[?] not much older than bella, we don't think]. bella seems to be the one in control of the two most of the time [or it might just be her exuberant nature]; during play, herding him, correcting aberrant behaviour for example. i've always put bella's food down first and then byron's without delay. this food is in their respective bowls. bones, however, and other chewables that i provide all go into a central bowl and from there, they take their pick. here is where i'm confused: food is primary and i understood that hierarchy determines who gets to eat first. bella will NOT chew a bone until byron has had his go at it! there is no resource guarding of any kind between the two and IN FACT, they happily share. here's how it goes: byron will go at the bone [or whatever] first and bella very calmly lays about a foot away waiting and then when byron moves off from it, bella calmly moves in for her turn and then when she's done, byron will return to it and so on. it was so glaringly obvious to me this afternoon when i gave each of them one of those [not 'greenies' but those other green] dental chews [that i'm wanting to use up]. byron eagerly took his and started to chew but for all my worth to convince bella to chew hers, she took it yet refused to chew it and at some point soon after, made her way back to their communal chewing mat where bryon was and when he, part way through his, got up for a drink, bella moved in and started happily chewing his partially consumed dental chew! i'm just trying to understand this shift! can anyone help me? tia :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Hierarchy is contextual, it changes depending on the situation. This has lead a lot of people to wonder whether we might be better off attributing it simply to reward and punishment? In wild groups of dogs who do have a hierarchy which is useful for cooperation and survival, the highest ranked dog does not eat first. 99% of what you will hear about hierarchy is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) Double post Edited November 9, 2012 by Aidan2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleo's Corgwyn Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Aidan is exactly right; most modern studies suggest that dogs have evolved in their relationships with humans and don't actually subscribe to pack theory (and the study that theory was based on is pretty dodgy anyway!) Dogs have things that they care about, and things that they don't. For example, a dog that is ball mad may try and keep other dogs away from that ball, but may not care about them being near food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 One of my pugs prefers some treats "pre loved", nothing to do with his place in the pack, but he will try and swap chews with my other pup for her soggy/half chewed one.her Maybe you dog just likes pre chewed dental sticks :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 I don't know about hierarchy, but I used to regularly get meaty marrow bones dumped in my lap in an effort to cajole me into a game of fetch. Slobbery, meaty marrow bone how on earth could anyone ever possibly resist the chance to play fetch with something so clearly wonderful? :/ I managed to convince her it wasn't going to happen and bones need to stay outside, so mercifully that hasn't happened in many years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 (edited) When ours have a meaty bone my girl will sometimes bring the bone over to me & put it on my lap as well. She wants it but she also wants me to have it as well Both of mine will swap their bones/treats many times between themselves while they are eating them too. Like to share or something :laugh: Strange behaviour really. I always supervise meal times, especially with precious stuff like bones or chic frames just in case of an argument. I don't know about the hierarchy thing in our house either. Sorry am not any help to you Edited November 11, 2012 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 When ours have a meaty bone my girl will sometimes bring the bone over to me & put it on my lap as well. She wants it but she also wants me to have it as well Both of mine will swap their bones/treats many times between themselves while they are eating them too. Like to share or something :laugh: Strange behaviour really. I always supervise meal times, especially with precious stuff like bones or chic frames just in case of an argument. I don't know about the hierarchy thing in our house either. Sorry am not any help to you Mine ALWAYS swap bones and then lick each others empty plates clean. I'm sure they think the other got something better so the bones get swapped :laugh: weirdos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 The pup I've got here at the moment has to have ALL the toys and ALL the bones. He's very funny and you can see the adult dogs rolling their eyes as if to say "oh FFS take the bloody bone. As long as you stop annoying me and it shuts you up!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 When ours have a meaty bone my girl will sometimes bring the bone over to me & put it on my lap as well. She wants it but she also wants me to have it as well Both of mine will swap their bones/treats many times between themselves while they are eating them too. Like to share or something :laugh: Strange behaviour really. I always supervise meal times, especially with precious stuff like bones or chic frames just in case of an argument. I don't know about the hierarchy thing in our house either. Sorry am not any help to you Mine ALWAYS swap bones and then lick each others empty plates clean. I'm sure they think the other got something better so the bones get swapped :laugh: weirdos Yes, I think that is why they swap too. Just in case the other one might have got a better one :laugh: Ours like each other bowls & plates & stuff as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Mine have no fixed heirachy either, for example one is more assertive when it comes to food and greeting friends, but the other has first dibs on the best sleeping spots and places in the car, and also greeting strangers. Neither ever challenges my authority, not that they are perfectly obedient by any stretch, but they know who sets the ground rules and has ultimate control of all the good stuff. Maybe your girl just like her bones pre-munched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 (edited) I only have one dog right now, so his place is well established and unchanging :laugh: Poor guy will have to pre-chew his own bones, though. Edited November 11, 2012 by Aidan2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 I only have one dog right now, so his place is well established and unchanging :laugh: Poor guy will have to pre-chew his own bones, though. Unless you step up to the plate and help him out there Aidan (blerk) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 thank you all so very very much for your replies. it seems that i have very little to be concerned about and curiously, you have each separately yet collectively described the very situation in which i exist! with courage i accept, after reading your replies, that my dogs are co-existing naturally :) i admit however that i could easily talk about this for hours... thank you again for your time and input --- graciously accepted :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 oh, and if you don't mind terribly, some of you made me positively laugh out loud --- indicitive of the level of comfort i now have following your respective experience :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Possession is 9/10ths of the law when it comes to dogs and possession of bones, IMO, regardless of hierarchy. In polite dog society, a dog has a bone, the other should give respectful space. If the dog with the bone gets up and leaves, finishes interest in bone and turns its back on the said bone, it is up for grabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 The alpha dog theory has been seriously debunked. Some dogs will know the best place to sleep, other will know where the best food is and others will know how to avoid detection etc. Dogs also assume diffent roles in different situations. With my dogs they never have bones or food unsupervised. Any bones or food left uneaten is quickly removed. Even my big girl who is totally non-violent will play politics with food and bury whole chicken legs just so she can chase the other dogs out of the yard. :laugh: But food and bones are no laughing matter at our house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfthewords Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 None of mine like to share. Carl (our 'alpha') will sometimes go and finish off a bone if someone walks away from theirs (he rarely touches his own), but Jag and Mischa stay until the bone is totally devoured most times. That said, they do lick each other's bowls and happily eat off the same place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 The alpha dog theory has been seriously debunked. As the blanket statement that the above seems to be ...... I disagree and I don't think it has been "seriously debunked". I think both sides are taken to extremes and middle ground needs to be reached to become closer to the truth. Just IMO. :D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 thanks for your replies :D Possession is 9/10ths of the law when it comes to dogs and possession of bones, IMO, regardless of hierarchy. In polite dog society, a dog has a bone, the other should give respectful space. If the dog with the bone gets up and leaves, finishes interest in bone and turns its back on the said bone, it is up for grabs. hi erny :) thank you! that describes exactly what happens here! byron loves his bones and bella does keep a very respectful and quiet distance while she waits for him to finish, so when he gets up for a drink, or he's had his fill, she will quietly move in and start to gnaw at the bone. when or if byron returns, he keeps his quiet and respectful distance as he waits for bella to finish and so on and so forth until they both retire. funny thing too; they both play this 'alarm-type' game where the one WITHOUT the bone [the 1st dog] will bark and make some find of fuss that distracts the one WITH the bone [the 2nd dog] and so when the 1st dog sounds an alarm, the 2nd dog will leave the bone to answer the alert while the 1st dog quietly moves in on the bone :PreciousPupLaugh: --- curiously tho lately, byron [who my OH says is a few bricks short] now answers the alert with the bone still firmly between his teeth :MorePreciousPupLaugh: The alpha dog theory has been seriously debunked. Some dogs will know the best place to sleep, other will know where the best food is and others will know how to avoid detection etc. Dogs also assume diffent roles in different situations. With my dogs they never have bones or food unsupervised. Any bones or food left uneaten is quickly removed. Even my big girl who is totally non-violent will play politics with food and bury whole chicken legs just so she can chase the other dogs out of the yard. :laugh: But food and bones are no laughing matter at our house. hi tralee :) thanks for your input! i too supervise my dogs' mealtimes as i do when i provide bones and with byron at mealtimes, i *must* remain in his general area or he will come looking for me [abandonment issues]. i'm not so sure about politics tho! i just don't see that with my two... your post confuses me tho! on the one hand you say the alpha dog theory has been seriously debunked but then you go on about how some dogs know the best place to sleep, where to find the best food and how to avoid detection! chasing other dogs out of the yard to protect buried treasures!?!? that food and bones at your place are no laughing matter!?!? alpha fo shizzle! None of mine like to share. Carl (our 'alpha') will sometimes go and finish off a bone if someone walks away from theirs (he rarely touches his own), but Jag and Mischa stay until the bone is totally devoured most times. That said, they do lick each other's bowls and happily eat off the same place. hello htw :) what you describe seems pretty normal given the posts in this thread! The alpha dog theory has been seriously debunked. As the blanket statement that the above seems to be ...... I disagree and I don't think it has been "seriously debunked". I think both sides are taken to extremes and middle ground needs to be reached to become closer to the truth. Just IMO. :D. i'm inclined to agree erny! by the same token, different dogs, different environments, might mean the difference?!? like i said earlier, i could talk about this for HOURS! soooo much more to say... thanks again for your input :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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