Latest Research On Prong & Check Collars

[aussielover]

Clarifying my earlier statements - my dogs ARE rewarded for good behaviour - just not with food. They are not "punished" for inappropriate behaviour, but they are aware of my disapproval by a growly tone (read "uh uh") when being corrected. It is actually amazing how much a dog will do just for the praise or positive attention (pat/scratch and happy tone of voice) of their human.

That said, my dogs aren't "perfect", and neither am I - but I truly value the bond that I have with each of them. They are all different and want different types of attention when they do what I've asked of them - so I accommodate that for each individual dog.

Training is MUCH more than just having a dog do things on command reliably - it is also an amazing opportunity to form a stronger bond with each individual dog.

I love the fact that I can take my dogs out in public and know that no matter what, their desire to please me is still paramount, regardless of external stimuli. (and I don't need to stuff my pockets with treats to enforce that desire)

I won't say that I've never used treats during training, but I work towards not needing to...

T.

What kind of training do you do?

I agree that manners and general behaviour should not require much more than a "good dog" or pat, but if I expect my dog to give 100% and do silly things like agility and some obedience exercises like decent heelwork, I need to use more than just a happy voice and a pat.

You may be lucky and have one of those dogs that works best for a pat, however if you know what your dog likes most, be it a toy, praise, pats or food surely if you're training for competition you would want to use the most valuable reward possible.

Sure, my dog will run an agility course or heel just to please me, but she'll do it better for food!

I don't think that means she is any less well trained.

[mantis]

Check chains are not banned at my club, but I could wish they were. I can't remember ever seeing them used well. I've seen them used ineffectively, and I've seen them used as a crutch. When dogs come to clicker class at our club they usually ditch the check chain sooner or later. Our clicker class suffers the same problems of lumping criteria, asking too much too soon, and phasing out treats too early that the other classes have in abundance, but the presence or absence of a check chain seems to relate poorly to any one person's ability to control or train their dog. I'd sooner they used food as a crutch. Maybe then they wouldn't fade it out way too soon and end up with a dog who has found half a dozen other things that are more interesting than training. Check, check, check, check, check. By a process of elimination the poor dog usually learns what they are meant to learn eventually. Like, in a year or two.

Why do you think so many show people still use check chains? They have been used for decades & are very affective in training when used properly, which I think the majority are.

[Rebanne]

Check chains are not banned at my club, but I could wish they were. I can't remember ever seeing them used well. I've seen them used ineffectively, and I've seen them used as a crutch. When dogs come to clicker class at our club they usually ditch the check chain sooner or later. Our clicker class suffers the same problems of lumping criteria, asking too much too soon, and phasing out treats too early that the other classes have in abundance, but the presence or absence of a check chain seems to relate poorly to any one person's ability to control or train their dog. I'd sooner they used food as a crutch. Maybe then they wouldn't fade it out way too soon and end up with a dog who has found half a dozen other things that are more interesting than training. Check, check, check, check, check. By a process of elimination the poor dog usually learns what they are meant to learn eventually. Like, in a year or two.

Why do you think so many show people still use check chains? They have been used for decades & are very affective in training when used properly, which I think the majority are.

cause a gold snake chain looks pretty on my dogs, it's certainly not there for correction. :D

[Salukifan]

Check chains are not banned at my club, but I could wish they were. I can't remember ever seeing them used well. I've seen them used ineffectively, and I've seen them used as a crutch. When dogs come to clicker class at our club they usually ditch the check chain sooner or later. Our clicker class suffers the same problems of lumping criteria, asking too much too soon, and phasing out treats too early that the other classes have in abundance, but the presence or absence of a check chain seems to relate poorly to any one person's ability to control or train their dog. I'd sooner they used food as a crutch. Maybe then they wouldn't fade it out way too soon and end up with a dog who has found half a dozen other things that are more interesting than training. Check, check, check, check, check. By a process of elimination the poor dog usually learns what they are meant to learn eventually. Like, in a year or two.

Why do you think so many show people still use check chains? They have been used for decades & are very affective in training when used properly, which I think the majority are.

cause a gold snake chain looks pretty on my dogs, it's certainly not there for correction. :D

I use a snake chain in the ring after trying probably every other form of show lead known to man.

I find it easier to position and keep in position, to apply very subtle 'check' signals to Dodger so that he knows what I want (generally to slow down a little) and it's almost invisible on him.

At least I know how to fit one correctly - something a few of the "anti check chain" brigade need to know so that they can at least assist pet dog owners who want to use such chains to use them properly.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[corvus]

Check chains are not banned at my club, but I could wish they were. I can't remember ever seeing them used well. I've seen them used ineffectively, and I've seen them used as a crutch.

So what you're saying is that the validity of the tool should be judged by how effectively your average pet person can use it?

I'm saying I don't often see them get used well, and I think that's a problem. Maybe it's just a problem in my club, although I doubt it. But I have a negativity bias due to some unpleasant experiences with check chains. I've had reason to be grateful for check chains in recent times, but I was severely handicapped. My toolbox at the time consisted of the check chain and a leash. I highly doubt that because I successfully managed (in the sense that no one got hurt and the borderline dangerous behaviour was temporarily stopped) a large and powerful dog with some borderline dangerous behaviours with a check chain that the check chain was necessary.

When someone arrives at a dog training club with a 65kg Bullmastiff that pulls like a train, then ask yourself what tool you can suggest to that person to help them physically control their dog until such time as they get its attention.

Whatever they are not currently using! I don't know what it's like in other places, but at our club the chances of them ever getting their dog's attention is pretty dismal. Some manage, others do not. Some manage to wear their dog down with repeated corrections until the dog stops doing just about everything. I'd like to see people given more support. Maybe then so many wouldn't quietly disappear from classes before their dog starts paying attention to them.

I dont' think check chains have any place in your average pet person's hands but I'd argue the same about haltis. Neither is particularly benign and neither is suitable for use by a person who is not instructed carefully and consistently about how to employ one. Both can be found in your average pet shop though.

One time I witnessed a dog reactive dog get switched from a head collar to a check chain and I was like "Well, I guess that's a start." The dog was being repeatedly and mercilessly corrected on the head collar. I figure if you're going to be a bit yank happy you should at least use something designed to be yanked. Unfortunately, that's where it ended. Haven't seen that dog for a while, and last time I saw it the check chain was somehow not curing the dog of not wanting other dogs in its space. Imagine that. Another time I saw a dog switched from a check to a head halter. It seemed to help. I imagine some form of contrast is valuable. If it feels different enough to what the dog is used to you might get a foot in to change behaviour before the dog habituates to the new equipment.

Treat bags make good crutches too. Plenty of dogs that wont' do squat for their owners unless there is food around.

Yep, but at least they are doing that much when there's food. Like I said, maybe if they used food as a crutch instead they wouldn't fade it out too soon. I honestly don't really care what happens to check chains at our club, although I expect they will never be banned. I won't ever be advocating for their ban. But I do wish people would get more support. If they aren't going to use them properly, what's the point? They may well be doing more harm than good. I want people who come to the club for help to get it. At least enough to encourage them to keep trying. Most won't try to get it privately, so if someone doesn't help them chances are the dog is going to end up permanently stuck in the backyard or worse.

Edited November 12, 2012 by corvus

[Salukifan]

Agree with you completely Corvus. As a dog trainer you know if you fail (for example to get the dog walking on a loose lead) that the dog will probably never leave the back yard.

It's a good reality check that helps keep personal training philosophies in perspective.

[tdierikx]

I'll just repeat my qualifying statement with regards to the training of my own pet dogs...

That said, my dogs aren't "perfect", and neither am I - but I truly value the bond that I have with each of them. They are all different and want different types of attention when they do what I've asked of them - so I accommodate that for each individual dog.

... which means that I, like many other pet owners, aren't training for agility or obedience trials - but I do aim for an excellent recall when out in public places.

T.