Latest Research On Prong & Check Collars

[Dame Aussie]

As long as people are using them correctly, I don't think anyone can say what is "right" or "wrong". It's about what works for the owners and their dogs.

[Kavik]

To add to huski's comments - am I right in reading that the trainers fed your dog from their bumbag? Now wonder you had problems using food! I never allow others to give my dog treats, or they end up trying to get treats from everybody else.

[espinay2]

Well all I can say is please God let me NOT encounter people walking powerful dogs on harnesses simply because they've been schooled that all collars are "cruel".

Handlers grass skiing behind dogs belting towards me is not something I want to encounter.

Agree 100% A harness encourages pulling as the dogs lean into it. Their is a reason sled and draft dogs wear a harness. I now specify in the classes I teach that dogs not be on a harness unless there is a specific medical reason that precludes wearing of a collar (as I teach at a vet clinic it is easy enough for them to discuss their concerns with the vet). There is simply not enough control to be had on a harness for the average person - particularly when around other dogs.

I refuse to put my pugs in collars because of breathing issues, and also because they can slip collars off their chunky necks quicker than you can blink. As a teacher of something (I don't know specifically what you teach, sorry!) would you still not allow a harness on a pug?

As I said, if there was a genuine medical issue (breathing) then harnesses would be used. I may also suggest a martingale collar that would not slip over the dogs head. I have had pugs in the classes before. Most have worn collars without issue. One wore a harness. She had to work VERY hard on the control issue.....

Edited November 9, 2012 by espinay2

[Rebanne]

I use a snake chain in the show ring cause it looks good on the dog, no other reason. I certainly don't use it to correct them.

[minimax]

Well all I can say is please God let me NOT encounter people walking powerful dogs on harnesses simply because they've been schooled that all collars are "cruel".

Handlers grass skiing behind dogs belting towards me is not something I want to encounter.

Agree 100% A harness encourages pulling as the dogs lean into it. Their is a reason sled and draft dogs wear a harness. I now specify in the classes I teach that dogs not be on a harness unless there is a specific medical reason that precludes wearing of a collar (as I teach at a vet clinic it is easy enough for them to discuss their concerns with the vet). There is simply not enough control to be had on a harness for the average person - particularly when around other dogs.

I refuse to put my pugs in collars because of breathing issues, and also because they can slip collars off their chunky necks quicker than you can blink. As a teacher of something (I don't know specifically what you teach, sorry!) would you still not allow a harness on a pug?

As I said, if there was a genuine medical issue (breathing) then harnesses would be used. I may also suggest a martingale collar that would not slip over the dogs head. I have had pugs in the classes before. Some have worn collars without issue. One wore a harness. She had to work VERY hard on the control issue.....

One of mine is perfect on a harness, one is like a freight train and is on a sporn :laugh:

Just curious as someone mentioned in another thread harnesses weren't allowed for obedience etc and I wondered how pugs or brachy breeds went if they were forced into something they weren't comfortable with.

[eyeopener]

Any collar can be harmful in the wrong hands it's like anything it's more about the operator than the tool or gadget etc. I personally can't stand harnesses n had some in check chains, some in flat collars n some in simple slip leads. It depends on the individual dog n handler & whether they have bothered to learn how to correctly use the restraint in question.

[espinay2]

Well all I can say is please God let me NOT encounter people walking powerful dogs on harnesses simply because they've been schooled that all collars are "cruel".

Handlers grass skiing behind dogs belting towards me is not something I want to encounter.

Agree 100% A harness encourages pulling as the dogs lean into it. Their is a reason sled and draft dogs wear a harness. I now specify in the classes I teach that dogs not be on a harness unless there is a specific medical reason that precludes wearing of a collar (as I teach at a vet clinic it is easy enough for them to discuss their concerns with the vet). There is simply not enough control to be had on a harness for the average person - particularly when around other dogs.

I refuse to put my pugs in collars because of breathing issues, and also because they can slip collars off their chunky necks quicker than you can blink. As a teacher of something (I don't know specifically what you teach, sorry!) would you still not allow a harness on a pug?

As I said, if there was a genuine medical issue (breathing) then harnesses would be used. I may also suggest a martingale collar that would not slip over the dogs head. I have had pugs in the classes before. Some have worn collars without issue. One wore a harness. She had to work VERY hard on the control issue.....

One of mine is perfect on a harness, one is like a freight train and is on a sporn :laugh:

Just curious as someone mentioned in another thread harnesses weren't allowed for obedience etc and I wondered how pugs or brachy breeds went if they were forced into something they weren't comfortable with.

If they are taught not to pull in a collar, they are very comfortable in one ;)

Photo (I captioned it for an article on walking on a lead): Dog is on check/choke chain which while you can't see the collar in his fur, it is loose around dogs neck. Pup is on a martingale collar. After 1 week on lead, she no longer pulls (though will need consistent reminding as she grows, simply by me stopping when the lead goes tight)

Edited November 9, 2012 by espinay2

[minimax]

One of mine is perfect on a harness, one is like a freight train and is on a sporn :laugh:

Just curious as someone mentioned in another thread harnesses weren't allowed for obedience etc and I wondered how pugs or brachy breeds went if they were forced into something they weren't comfortable with.

If they are taught not to pull in a collar, they are very comfortable in one ;)

I taught my pug to have a collar on, not even walk in one, just wear one, but she hated it and spent every second of her life trying to get it off, and whenever I walked her in it she would walk backwards out of it. The downside to having a dog whos neck is bigger than their head :laugh:

[corvus]

But the point is that a good balanced trainer would recognise if corrections were going to cause too much fallout for your dog and wouldn't use them. That's why it's balanced - they use the best tools and techniques for the individual dog rather than just using a one size fits all for all dogs.

There are two problems with this.

1) How do you judge what is "too much fallout"? How do you measure it? How do you predict it?

2) How do you tell what's 'best' for an individual dog? This is a statement that drives me crazy. There is NO WAY TO TELL. You can't compare methods on the one dog and unless you find dogs that are clones with exactly the same upbringing and training history, comparison between dogs is meaningless. And even if you could do that, can you take into account the skill of the trainer? There is no measure for trainer skill at this point. Success is not a measure of trainer skill.

I find it very telling that some people on this thread seem to think there is just one way to apply, say, dicking around just under threshold doing watch me exercises. Er, it's a fair bit more nuanced and subtle than that, people. I love when folks are quick to cry ignorance when someone disses their favoured methods, but in the same breath show their ignorance by dissing other methods. D'ya think no one notices the hypocrisy? Most methods are effective to some degree. I expect all methods are effective if applied skilfully.

[Jumabaar]

One of mine is perfect on a harness, one is like a freight train and is on a sporn :laugh:

Just curious as someone mentioned in another thread harnesses weren't allowed for obedience etc and I wondered how pugs or brachy breeds went if they were forced into something they weren't comfortable with.

If they are taught not to pull in a collar, they are very comfortable in one ;)

I taught my pug to have a collar on, not even walk in one, just wear one, but she hated it and spent every second of her life trying to get it off, and whenever I walked her in it she would walk backwards out of it. The downside to having a dog whos neck is bigger than their head :laugh:

I have seen plenty of dogs not to pull in their harness- taught pretty much the same way as you teach loose lead walking. I do flyball and my current pup walks around on a loose lead in her harness until I grab it and physically pull on it which cues her to pull back. Much the same way as sled dogs can relax in their harness while not being asked to pull.

And I dont think its much more difficult than teaching a dog not to pull on a collar. The vast majority of dogs that I have met in harness are in them because they were choking themselves in a collar before they ended up in a harness......

[tdierikx]

To add to huski's comments - am I right in reading that the trainers fed your dog from their bumbag? Now wonder you had problems using food! I never allow others to give my dog treats, or they end up trying to get treats from everybody else.

Yep - the trainers were feeding my Labrahoover from their bumbags - and not just when we were training either... even after I expressly asked them not to...

If my dog is doing what is asked of it, and enjoying the praise and/or pat when doing it well, why persist in insisting that it needs to be fed as well?

Needless to say, we stopped going to group training because my Labrahoover would have eyes only for bumbags and refused to work unless there was food on offer. Not my idea of a decently trained dog - and it took ages to break her of that mercenary idea of working only for food. Now she will do as asked when she's asked, no thanks to those particular trainers' pushing of their own methods/agendas.

My disabled dog went to a different training group, and she needs to be on harness due both to her occasional stumbling (I can make sure she doesn't fall), and the fact that she has a couple of hypersensitive spots on her neck right where a collar sits - anything even lightly touching those spots sets off her back leg scratching, which then makes her fall over. The training group I took her to was appraised of her issues, and accommodated them with adjusting our training techniques to suit the actual dog... as a result, my crazy spastic camp dog now can sit, drop, and heel on command - all on her harness... *grin*

T.

[Kavik]

tdierikx,

What they were doing was a very poor use of food in training! I would have left too, especially since they continued to give treats when you told them not to.

Sure you don't have to use treats if you don't want to, if what you are doing is getting you the results you want.

[Dame Aussie]

To add to huski's comments - am I right in reading that the trainers fed your dog from their bumbag? Now wonder you had problems using food! I never allow others to give my dog treats, or they end up trying to get treats from everybody else.

Yep - the trainers were feeding my Labrahoover from their bumbags - and not just when we were training either... even after I expressly asked them not to...

If my dog is doing what is asked of it, and enjoying the praise and/or pat when doing it well, why persist in insisting that it needs to be fed as well?

T.

Yeah, mine love their food but they don't need it when training.

I went to one training classbut never went back as all it seemed to be was stuffing the dogs with copious amounts of luncheon

One of my dogs threw up she had been given so many treats. No thanks.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Aussie3

[Weasels]

Most methods are effective to some degree. I expect all methods are effective if applied skilfully.

Well that saved me some typing :laugh: Exactly what I was going to say. And yes the "reward-based training means just throwing treats" mindset bugs me too, I spend lots of time making complicated evaluations about what is motivating and likely to motivate my dogs at any given time, and planning management scenarios to avoid potential trouble. I don't think this is the only way to train my dogs. It's the way I've chosen based on how I want to interact with them and where I have chosen to develop certain skills.

I've trained a dog successfully on a check when I was young, I know it works. I'm also quite sure the same dog could have been trained in other ways. Bad training is bad training, blaming the method makes no sense. TD you've been subjected to people who don't really understand what they're doing or why

[melzawelza]

I disagree that most methods are effective if applied skilfully.

Crank & yank on a whippet probably isn't going to be successful (shutting down the dog, lots of fall out etc), whereas it might on a Rotty (generalising).

Likewise a 'positive only' approach may not work (and by work I'm talking about fixing the issue to an acceptable level within an acceptable timeframe) for a high drive, dog aggro Rotty and may for the placid Whippet (again, generalising), even when being used effectively. Individual dogs respond to individual techniques, and that's why many of us feel a good balanced trainer is always preferable.

Edited November 9, 2012 by melzawelza

[mixeduppup]

I have two kelpies and two very different training methods. One needed a check collar for a while as she was a rescue and a bit dog reactive and needed that extra reinforcement. The other was a flat collar and that's all. they're now both on flat collars, but occasionally I'll employ the check collar on Maybe for a refresher if I feel she needs it.

[Aidan3]

To add to huski's comments - am I right in reading that the trainers fed your dog from their bumbag? Now wonder you had problems using food! I never allow others to give my dog treats, or they end up trying to get treats from everybody else.

Yep - the trainers were feeding my Labrahoover from their bumbags - and not just when we were training either... even after I expressly asked them not to...

If my dog is doing what is asked of it, and enjoying the praise and/or pat when doing it well, why persist in insisting that it needs to be fed as well?

There is no need. My current dog is not trained with food. He is one of those rare dogs who finds praise and attention almost as valuable as food, at least for what I ask him to do. I realise that there are lots of dogs who find praise and attention reinforcing, but it is rare for praise to be almost as valuable as food. He comes when called, even if he is playing with another dog. He walks reasonably nicely on lead (I do have higher standards for this usually, but he is better than most even when excited to be getting out the door).

Needless to say, we stopped going to group training because my Labrahoover would have eyes only for bumbags and refused to work unless there was food on offer. Not my idea of a decently trained dog - and it took ages to break her of that mercenary idea of working only for food. Now she will do as asked when she's asked, no thanks to those particular trainers' pushing of their own methods/agendas.

I have no idea of what their agenda allegedly is, but their method sounds highly dubious. I train with food. All of my client's dogs are trained with food. They are not clients because their dog is easy to train or safe to be around, and they need to be trained to a reliable standard. They do not "only work when food is on offer" and they do not mug others for their bum-bags. These are utterly basic principles, but I suppose not everyone got the memo?

Food is a universal reinforcer. All animals depend on food for survival so all animals have evolved a "reward system" that puts food as a very high priority in modifying their behaviour. It doesn't really matter what sort of dog they are or what sort of temperament they have, but people will still manage to find ways to stuff it up :laugh:

[tdierikx]

All of my dogs learn very early on what "uh uh" or "leave it" mean... and I'm not going to go all lala over them for doing what they are told in scenarios when I use the command either. Their "reward" for obeying those commands is me not growling at them any more... *grin*

Thusly, when we decide to venture out to a group training environment, if they are acting up, then an "uh uh" from me will usually settle them back into focus - and they don't need a bloody treat then either... tone of voice when they are doing something good or bad can sometimes be all that a particular dog "needs" in order to respond appropriately.

Then again, I'm not wanting to have my dogs obedience trained to a trialing level, so as long as they do the basics reliably (including recall), I'm happy and so are they...

T.

[espinay2]

I think most people forget that a reward is not what YOU think the dog will find rewarding, but what the DOG actually DOES find rewarding.

Treats are used mostly in class situations as they will work as a reward to some level for MOST dogs (though not all) and are the easiest to manage as a reward in a class situation (as opposed to throwing balls, squeaky toys etc etc which may be better used at home when they will not distract other class members)

I always encourage people to work out what rewards work for THEIR dogs - and use that.

[Aidan3]

I have two kelpies and two very different training methods. One needed a check collar for a while as she was a rescue and a bit dog reactive and needed that extra reinforcement.

How do you know she "needed" it? I think that's the point corvus was making, just because something works doesn't mean it was necessary. It's more important to know that you are competent and not doing harm.