Latest Research On Prong & Check Collars

[Blackdogs]

Always been known as check chains as far back as I can remember... only the ignorant and the activists refer to them as choke chains.

Think about it - what good does it do to choke the crap out of your dog? Whereas a check and release is very effective when done correctly... I only have to apply gentle tension to my girls' leads and just the noise of the links moving has them corrected quickly.

T.

I see very very few used as intended. With the way Joe public uses chains I think 'choke' is an appropriate name.

bahaha yeah like a 'gentle leader' :laugh:

Hahaha. I completely agree. They should be renamed 'the abrasive irritator'.

[Blackdogs]

This is the article by Emily Larlham (aka Kikopup) about using collars (of any sort)

http://clicktreat.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/is-it-harmful-to-attach-aleash-to-your.html

I like Emily and I see some valid points but I think the key is to not allow the dogs to pull on any collar constantly. If you are going to just let them keep pulling, then use a harness.

This is exactly the type of crap I hope my puppy homes avoid:

If dogs bite each other shouldn’t it be natural for us to emulate them to train them?

It all depends on your morals and ethics whether inflicting intimidation or pain on an animal is an acceptable behavior. It is part of human behavior in a society to bully, rape and kill each other, but that doesn’t make it moral or give one the right to do it to other people. Because dogs and wolves bully, fight, and kill each other does not make it acceptable for us to emulate their behavior towards our own dog. Dogs play-fight using their mouths, see the photo above left, but that also doesn’t give us a right to use collars or intimidation to manage or train dogs. Jerking a dog on a collar could suppress a behavior from happening, but it can also cause behavioral side effects such as aggression and frustration

How do you think and LGD would respond to 'positive only' training?

[m-sass]

Not all dog's drive and character are the same. I love the way trainers of high drive dogs that have instinctive value for the handler with good focus where motivational training works on these dogs like a duck to water claim that you don't need correctional collars......sure you don't on dogs like that, but dog's who's drives are in the wrong place for ease of training need some consequence for the wrong choices. These method bashers who can't see the dog in front of them through the cloud of positive motivational training concepts that they spruke, take on the wrong dogs that don't suit their methods and they just dick around for months upholding a method in cult fashion getting nowhere and talking theoretical bullshit, they have no idea and can't even read a dog??.

One good example are handler submissive reactive dogs which doesn't take more than 15 minutes to see what the dog is about if you know what you are looking at but the poor dog and owner end up with a method pusher and a bloody Halti and they dick around inside the reactivity threshhold with watch me exercises and garbage that works on high drive easily focused dogs. What these handler submissive reactive dogs need is a couple of good corrections and an old fashion "NO" and often within 20 minutes, the dog pulls it's head in and starts to learn the consequence of bad behaviour. It "doesn't" work on all characters, but it works like magic on some, so to piss around with a positive trainer peddling methods at all costs with a character of dog that needs a damn good correction for the sake of the dog and the handler, trainers with only half a tool box of tools peddling one method fits all with the inability to read an individual dog's character IMHO shouldn't be calling themselves dog trainers??.

wasn't there a case of police trainers stringing up dogs by their choke chains

Yep, usually done to take the drive away from handler aggressive dogs and often dogs most suitable for apprehension of offenders can be handler aggressive when the have a low threshhold to fight.

Edited November 8, 2012 by m-sass

[melzawelza]

Not all dog's drive and character are the same. I love the way trainers of high drive dogs that have instinctive value for the handler with good focus where motivational training works on these dogs like a duck to water claim that you don't need correctional collars......sure you don't on dogs like that, but dog's who's drives are in the wrong place for ease of training need some consequence for the wrong choices. These method bashers who can't see the dog in front of them through the cloud of positive motivational training concepts that they spruke, take on the wrong dogs that don't suit their methods and they just dick around for months upholding a method in cult fashion getting nowhere and talking theoretical bullshit, they have no idea and can't even read a dog??.

One good example are handler submissive reactive dogs which doesn't take more than 15 minutes to see what the dog is about if you know what you are looking at but the poor dog and owner end up with a method pusher and a bloody Halti and they dick around inside the reactivity threshhold with watch me exercises and garbage that works on high drive easily focused dogs. What these handler submissive reactive dogs need is a couple of good corrections and an old fashion "NO" and often within 20 minutes, the dog pulls it's head in and starts to learn the consequence of bad behaviour. It "doesn't" work on all characters, but it works like magic on some, so to piss around with a positive trainer peddling methods at all costs with a character of dog that needs a damn good correction for the sake of the dog and the handler, trainers with only half a tool box of tools peddling one method fits all with the inability to read an individual dog's character IMHO shouldn't be calling themselves dog trainers??.

wasn't there a case of police trainers stringing up dogs by their choke chains

Yep, usually done to take the drive away from handler aggressive dogs and often dogs most suitable for apprehension of offenders can be handler aggressive when the have a low threshhold to fight.

Never thought I'd ever say it but I agree 100% with M-sass.

[Kavik]

Well all I can say is please God let me NOT encounter people walking powerful dogs on harnesses simply because they've been schooled that all collars are "cruel".

Handlers grass skiing behind dogs belting towards me is not something I want to encounter.

Completely agree!

[Rebanne]

Always been known as check chains as far back as I can remember... only the ignorant and the activists refer to them as choke chains.

Think about it - what good does it do to choke the crap out of your dog? Whereas a check and release is very effective when done correctly... I only have to apply gentle tension to my girls' leads and just the noise of the links moving has them corrected quickly.

T.

no I'm with Becks they used to be called choke chains and that's what the obedience club called them way back when. So call me ignorant but they will always be choke chains to me. Same as dry food is dry food, not kibble :)

Edited November 8, 2012 by Rebanne

[tdierikx]

I prefer to train in a check chain... much to the chagrin of most of the training groups around my area. Once I show them that I know how to use one, they usually concede the point and let me use it. The trick to check chains is getting the right size link for the dog you are working with - too large or too small can cause pinching, which isn't desirable.

The one thing that I really hate is the groups who insist on food reward training. That was a complete nightmare with my food obsessed Labrahoover. The only thing she learned with 100% reliability is that bumbags contain yummy treats... grrr!

T.

[aussielover]

Food reward training works great with my labrahoover!

Of course its only useful when you actually have food on you.

[Aidan3]

The one thing that I really hate is the groups who insist on food reward training. That was a complete nightmare with my food obsessed Labrahoover. The only thing she learned with 100% reliability is that bumbags contain yummy treats... grrr!

T.

Sounds like it would work great if you were shown how to use it properly. Whatever you do, don't get a Malinois and learn bite-work with these people!

[huski]

The one thing that I really hate is the groups who insist on food reward training. That was a complete nightmare with my food obsessed Labrahoover. The only thing she learned with 100% reliability is that bumbags contain yummy treats... grrr!

T.

Sounds like it would work great if you were shown how to use it properly. Whatever you do, don't get a Malinois and learn bite-work with these people!

:laugh: Aidan.

Just like prong collars and any tool or training method, using food rewards in training is only as effective as the person using them.

[Weasels]

The one thing that I really hate is the groups who insist on food reward training. That was a complete nightmare with my food obsessed Labrahoover. The only thing she learned with 100% reliability is that bumbags contain yummy treats... grrr!

T.

I know some trainers like to use food at least in the beginning because it helps the trainer to guage the stress level of the dogs in a group situation. If the dogs isn't eating that's an immediate red flag that they need to spend more time with that dog & handler to get the comfort level up/move further away/whatever

--

FWIW I think you get good at the method you practice. And there are bad trainers all over the spectrum of methods. I'd rather get in a trainer that is specialised and well-versed in the method of training that the kelps already have a basis in, than a 'jack of all trades' who may be able to use a prong but that is of no use to me because I'm not going to use one. I'm quite happy to "piss around with a positive trainer" with my reactive dog because I know that the fallout for correcting him for displaying fear is going to to be worse and harder to resolve than just treating the problem at the source to start with.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Weasels

[tdierikx]

My Labrahoover was responding well to praise only in training - until she was continuously fed treats from the trainers bumbags. Quite frankly it wasn't necessary to feed her for getting the command right...

T.

[melzawelza]

The one thing that I really hate is the groups who insist on food reward training. That was a complete nightmare with my food obsessed Labrahoover. The only thing she learned with 100% reliability is that bumbags contain yummy treats... grrr!

T.

I know some trainers like to use food at least in the beginning because it helps the trainer to guage the stress level of the dogs in a group situation. If the dogs isn't eating that's an immediate red flag that they need to spend more time with that dog & handler to get the comfort level up/move further away/whatever

--

FWIW I think you get good at the method you practice. And there are bad trainers all over the spectrum of methods. I'd rather get in a trainer that is specialised and well-versed in the method of training that the kelps already have a basis in, than a 'jack of all trades' who may be able to use a prong but that is of no use to me because I'm not going to use one. I'm quite happy to "piss around with a positive trainer" with my reactive dog because I know that the fallout for correcting him for displaying fear is going to to be worse and harder to resolve than just treating the problem at the source to start with.

But the point is that a good balanced trainer would recognise if corrections were going to cause too much fallout for your dog and wouldn't use them. That's why it's balanced - they use the best tools and techniques for the individual dog rather than just using a one size fits all for all dogs.

[griff]

Never used a prong but if I had to I surely would and I believe you can also buy collar cover and plastic tips to go over the prong part .

To this day ( I must not get out much ) LOL but have never seen a SWF , staffy or any other dog in a harness

walk along nicely they all pull like draught horses !!

forgot to add that Yes check chains where allways called chokers years ago and to this day some still call them that .

Edited November 9, 2012 by griff

[BJean]

This is the article by Emily Larlham (aka Kikopup) about using collars (of any sort)

http://clicktreat.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/is-it-harmful-to-attach-aleash-to-your.html

I like Emily and I see some valid points but I think the key is to not allow the dogs to pull on any collar constantly. If you are going to just let them keep pulling, then use a harness.

This is exactly the type of crap I hope my puppy homes avoid:

If dogs bite each other shouldn’t it be natural for us to emulate them to train them?

It all depends on your morals and ethics whether inflicting intimidation or pain on an animal is an acceptable behavior. It is part of human behavior in a society to bully, rape and kill each other, but that doesn’t make it moral or give one the right to do it to other people. Because dogs and wolves bully, fight, and kill each other does not make it acceptable for us to emulate their behavior towards our own dog. Dogs play-fight using their mouths, see the photo above left, but that also doesn’t give us a right to use collars or intimidation to manage or train dogs. Jerking a dog on a collar could suppress a behavior from happening, but it can also cause behavioral side effects such as aggression and frustration

How do you think and LGD would respond to 'positive only' training?

Firstly I am not sure what positive only is. Life and dogs are too complex to waste time pontificating about what dog theorists waffle on about.

:)

To answer the specific of how I think a halti or harness is suited to an LGD:

I would not use nor recommend a halti or harness on an Anatolian or Central Asian

as it will not hold the dog in a situation.

The problem with a halti is it is not teaching the dog to listen to its handler, same with the spray bottle technique. (nothing to do with walking but if a dog wont listen to no, then it is not listening to you better with a spray bottle, it knows the water is coming from the spray bottle. it will wait until you do not have the spray bottle, or halti - halti is a very serious aggravation to some LGD.) some assertive asd if you use an object will take it as a challenge and they will turn around stare at you and take you up on it. You need the dog to see you as leader otherwise it can be problematic, and the relationship has to be they follow you because they choose to, not because you make them - you cannot 'make' some adult ASD/CAS do anything. If you do not have a good relationship with the dog then a gimmick will not help you. Some LGD have mind like concrete. Once they reach 3 and 4 years old it sets, and they are unlikely to accept another handler. Flat collar as a puppy and check chain as adult, you can go back to flat collar (or use a harness) on an aged dog. But you need check chain in case of an incident.

Black dogs, from what I have seen of Maremma - its rank drive and instinctive responses do not seem to be as primitive or reactive as some ASD/CAS. There can be a considerable size difference also. For the best guidance on how to train your maremma, I would follow the advice of your maremma breeder.

NB: imo any dog theorist who equates correction with bullying / violence does not know what they are waffling on about in real terms. Any one who has a challenging assertive dog knows that the relationship between adult dog and human handler is very much one of mutual respect.

I have and I will and I do scruff an upstart ASD/CAS puppy, but if I have a growl directed at me from an adult ASD/CAS, then I deal with that situation very very carefully and very differently. The former is correcting and putting a puppy into its place. The later is much more serious and you need to hold your ground while diffusing the situation at the same time, hold your nerve also and then over time work at reestablishing the relationship. The last thing you would do in this scenario (and it would be the last thing you did do) is apply dog theorist 'violence'/physical correction. So you see nothing is black and white or requires the utilisation of 'positive only' or 'negative only' (or whatever it is that dog theorists call it) :)

Edited November 9, 2012 by lilli

[huski]

FWIW I think you get good at the method you practice. And there are bad trainers all over the spectrum of methods. I'd rather get in a trainer that is specialised and well-versed in the method of training that the kelps already have a basis in, than a 'jack of all trades' who may be able to use a prong but that is of no use to me because I'm not going to use one. I'm quite happy to "piss around with a positive trainer" with my reactive dog because I know that the fallout for correcting him for displaying fear is going to to be worse and harder to resolve than just treating the problem at the source to start with.

But why would any reputable trainer use any tool/method if the result would be undesirable?

[espinay2]

Well all I can say is please God let me NOT encounter people walking powerful dogs on harnesses simply because they've been schooled that all collars are "cruel".

Handlers grass skiing behind dogs belting towards me is not something I want to encounter.

Agree 100% A harness encourages pulling as the dogs lean into it. Their is a reason sled and draft dogs wear a harness. I now specify in the classes I teach that dogs not be on a harness unless there is a specific medical reason that precludes wearing of a collar (as I teach at a vet clinic it is easy enough for them to discuss their concerns with the vet). There is simply not enough control to be had on a harness for the average person - particularly when around other dogs.

When did check collars become unpopular? When I showed my Cairns in the 70's & 80's, everyone used them in the ring.

I think the RSPCA started an anti check chain campaign - they wouldn't sell them in their pet shop. But then the campaign seemed to fade away.

And yes, check chains, in silver, gold and black, chain and snake chain are still used in the ring

And when they are used properly, you aren't jerking it on the dog. I train mine on flat collars and when they are good on the flat collar, change to a choker. And if the dog is big, it is possible that the check chain just might avert disaster in a bad situation.

I don't understand how those people being towed along by cavaliers on harnesses can tolerate it. I have put it down to a failure to be able to train to a collar

Yes, I use check/choke chains on my dogs in the show ring and out of it. I do start my dogs off as pups on a martingale collar and they learn from day one that if they want to go anywhere on a lead, the lead stays loose. They never learn to pull in the first place. I prefer a martingale and recommend them as they are safer than a buckle collar - so many dogs I have seen can 'back out' of a buckle collar and get loose. Can't do that with a martingale. But I do like a check/choke chain too as with it up under the chin and behind the ears you can have a lot more control when you need it (useful when walking a large entire male through a tight crowd of dogs for example). No jerking necessary if they learn not to pull in the first place as the dog takes the cue from the collar and loosens the tension itself.

This is the article by Emily Larlham (aka Kikopup) about using collars (of any sort)

http://clicktreat.bl...sh-to-your.html

I like Emily and I see some valid points but I think the key is to not allow the dogs to pull on any collar constantly. If you are going to just let them keep pulling, then use a harness.

This is exactly the type of crap I hope my puppy homes avoid:

If dogs bite each other shouldn't it be natural for us to emulate them to train them?

It all depends on your morals and ethics whether inflicting intimidation or pain on an animal is an acceptable behavior. It is part of human behavior in a society to bully, rape and kill each other, but that doesn't make it moral or give one the right to do it to other people. Because dogs and wolves bully, fight, and kill each other does not make it acceptable for us to emulate their behavior towards our own dog. Dogs play-fight using their mouths, see the photo above left, but that also doesn't give us a right to use collars or intimidation to manage or train dogs. Jerking a dog on a collar could suppress a behavior from happening, but it can also cause behavioral side effects such as aggression and frustration

How do you think and LGD would respond to 'positive only' training?

Depends what you mean by 'positive only'. LGD certianly need good leadership (which is all about confidence and attitude, not aggression), but I have used 'positive' methods to train all my dogs and they respond very well. (Just don't expect them to respond like a labrador, border collie or other more 'people focussed' breed!

I will say that while I teach using primarily positive methods in my classes, there have been dogs that I HAVE suggested a check/choke chain for when I can see things are not working for them and helped them to fit and learn how to use them. Sometimes they most definitely are a useful option for some people and after seeing them struggle for several weeks with a pulling, choking and out of control dog on a buckle or martingale collar, to have them in one lesson change to a happy team with the dog walking happy and attentive beside them on a loose lead is great to see. What works for one, doesn't always work for others and vice versa.

Edited November 9, 2012 by espinay2

[mixeduppup]

I don't mind prong collars and think they have their place. Sadly though I think that the general public shouldn't have free access to them, as i see so many people that don't even use check chains correctly and definitely should not have access to prong collars.

[minimax]

Well all I can say is please God let me NOT encounter people walking powerful dogs on harnesses simply because they've been schooled that all collars are "cruel".

Handlers grass skiing behind dogs belting towards me is not something I want to encounter.

Agree 100% A harness encourages pulling as the dogs lean into it. Their is a reason sled and draft dogs wear a harness. I now specify in the classes I teach that dogs not be on a harness unless there is a specific medical reason that precludes wearing of a collar (as I teach at a vet clinic it is easy enough for them to discuss their concerns with the vet). There is simply not enough control to be had on a harness for the average person - particularly when around other dogs.

I refuse to put my pugs in collars because of breathing issues, and also because they can slip collars off their chunky necks quicker than you can blink. As a teacher of something (I don't know specifically what you teach, sorry!) would you still not allow a harness on a pug?

[huski]

My Labrahoover was responding well to praise only in training - until she was continuously fed treats from the trainers bumbags. Quite frankly it wasn't necessary to feed her for getting the command right...

T.

I think it depends on what your goals are and what level of work you want from your dog, there's more to how a dog responds to a command than whether they are just getting it right/complying with it.