PomsNZ Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 If you are going to breed her now you may miss out in march show anyways..... Id not take a bitch in season, regardless! She may be in your crate sometimes, but she IS let out, and there are always male dogs willing and able to take advantage... I think its a bit underhanded to take a bitch in standing heat to a trailing show, but then Im a bit of a snob anyways. What is more important? the litter now, or the trails? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 I hope you've noted Diva's point that litter brothers are not genetically identical. You should also opt for the best phenotype. No point in using a gee whiz pedigree if the dog is less than superior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasha Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 Noted HW. Phenotype in both dogs is great. Ideal in my books. Not genetically identical I know. But at least they both carry the same BLOODLINES which is what people want. This cross of lines with that cross of lines. Working people aren't looking to produce a mirror image in looks to the parent. They are looking for combination of lines that perform a duty and reliably pass those genes on. I don't choose a sire or dam on its own individual presentation. I pick them because of their parents and grandparent etc and what they have produced reliably and consistently through their own lives. Obviously the individual parents I use must also have inherited those same qualities that their lines are known for. The difference in what I breed for (function) is way more important than what conformation people breed for IMO. I NEED a dog that can do the job, not look like it might according to people that have probably never seen a beautiful working dog in action. They really take your breath away and to be honest, what you remember of that dog is the style and finesse, they way it controlled its stock in such a manner people only dream of having in their lines. You don't remember that the leg marking weren't even, or its ears may have not sat perfectly on its head, or heaven forbid the colour was a bit washed out or too much white. But you notice the ears moved each time its handler whistled or spoke, and how its body just seemed to change direction without any obvious effort and managed to control that animal that tried to get away, and managed to put it back in the mob even before the handler could have given a command to do so. Most people will not see work like that unless they venture out of the ANKC world and try and experience wider environments. So when I see my dogs work like that, and see my pups I have produced, also perform like that, I don't really care what opinions people form of me because I don't keep a pup, or am willing to change the sire at any time because until those people have had their breath taken away watching something like that, they cannot objectively contribute to what I do. My original post was a question of cycles and timing due to unforseen circumstances and poor timing, not a post on me having to justify what I do and explain to people why I ask a question. So thanks to the people that have helped answer my original question. And thanks to the others for posting to allow me to feel how other dog people may feel when they innocently ask a question and have the the jury report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) Noted HW. Phenotype in both dogs is great. Ideal in my books. Not genetically identical I know. But at least they both carry the same BLOODLINES which is what people want. This cross of lines with that cross of lines. Working people aren't looking to produce a mirror image in looks to the parent. They are looking for combination of lines that perform a duty and reliably pass those genes on. I don't choose a sire or dam on its own individual presentation. I pick them because of their parents and grandparent etc and what they have produced reliably and consistently through their own lives. Obviously the individual parents I use must also have inherited those same qualities that their lines are known for. The difference in what I breed for (function) is way more important than what conformation people breed for IMO. And yet, strangely, you've outlined the breeding philosophy that most of the more knowledgeable and careful conformation breeders I know follow to a T. I don't know anyone who isn't looking back two generations and more! And thanks to the others for posting to allow me to feel how other dog people may feel when they innocently ask a question and have the the jury report back. Personally I don't have an issue with a breeder planning to keep nothing from a litter. If you have good dogs and enjoy raising litters then why not? It's not like the world is being swamped with ANKC/WKC registered litters is it? I understand why people get defensive when questions are asked but where's the real harm in asking? I think most folk only want to know that the potential litter has been carefully thought through. Edited November 7, 2012 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I don't have an issue with you not keeping a pup, I also don't have an issue with you trialling your bitch as the rules say you can and are welcome. If I really wanted that litter from that dog I wouldn't go to the trial incase I missed her fertile time. If her potentially missing isn't too much of a worry I would go day 11 and 14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) So you must know how the brother works to consider him, if you think that he is as likely to produce what you want, use him. It sounds like he may not be available on the statistically most likely days, but if you have bred her before what days did she tie then? Would thatbe your best guide? I have no problem with you not keeping a puppy, if the demand is there from good savvy homes why not fulfill it. Edited November 7, 2012 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Bitches usually mate around the same day but not always. So work on when she mated last time as a guide. I gather the dog you want is on the way to and from the trial. Can you line him up if the days work out and have the brother as back up if they don't? If your girl is only ready day 12 and 13 you could be in trouble though unless you use a dog at the trial. I have no problem with you trialling the bitch and not keeping a puppy, if you have homes lined up. My concern was health testing and lining the pockets of someone who sells unregistered dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLF Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I havent read ALL the replies, but I get the general idea. Firstly let me say that I too breed Working Dogs and can understand about the trialling. However, if I were in the situtaion (which in the future I may be) I would choose either to compete or to mate. Thats just me. :) In any case I think you should choose the BEST match for your bitch, genetically. So that you produce the best quality pup you can, otherwise whats the point. If you want to compete and join her, as some might say have your cake and eat it too...I would choose the best sire and go on the days before and after the trial. Cross my fingers and hope for the best. If it is a repeat mating do you know what days she joined last time? can you use that as an indication instead of just going with the 'text book' days? This might help you as in the case of my bitch she wont let the dog near her untill day 12, so the visit on day 11 would be a waste of time. Good Luck and would love too hear how you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasha Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 Well I have decided I will take her to the dog on Monday which is day 9 just to see her response. If she is still snapping his face off and she doesn't look ready, I will then take her back Thurs on my way down to the trial. Pretty sure Thurs she will be on. Then try again on Sat/Sun. As soon as I am finished at the trial on Sat or Sun, I will head straight back up there and try again. So it may even be Sat. So it looks like it will be check at day 9, 12, 14/15 From memory last year she was on for 3-4 days. The owner of the dog took her to her place last time after a trial and then waited til she came in. But I can't remember what day she was up to on the day she took her down. Oh well. I will just have to assess the next move each time I take her there. I may be able to look back at the timing of last year as I remember there is a trial in ACT that bitches in season can't go to and she came in straight after that and was in for the next one..... then she went home with the sire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Never come across that rule before Becks. I don't think there is only one dog around that would be the best for your bitch, that the beauty of having diverse lines in you breed. Plenty more fish in the sea. If its never been used before how do you know its the best. I am surprised, it has been mentioned in this forum on many occasions when stud dogs have been discussed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 The answer as to when, would be when she's ready. She'd need to be flagging and acting like a real tart and I'd be doing the "steve" pinch test, before I bothered to leave home. You mate a bitch when she's ready and she chooses that for you, even if it means missing trials, shows, weddings and Christmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLF Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Dasha- I would never remember if I didnt write it down. Also I would of asked the breeder where the dog was what days she was joined so I knew exactly when to expect the pups. Im a sucker for detail. Im sure I write down every time my bitch sneezes when she is in heat. It serves me well though when I need to reference something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasha Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 I wrote down the days she was mated so I knew when the pups were due, but hadn't calculated the exact day of her cycle it was. LOL I will be doing the pinch test before I go as I don't want to waste 4 hours of my only day off driving down there Lol. But after Mon I have to wait til Thurs as the owner of the dog after saying she is around every day ( I then suggested I come Tues afternoon/wed/thurs afternoons ) then tells me she is away all day Wed and likes to keep Tues afternoon free as she has stuff on Tues am. So we will just have to plan each day as it comes. She was mated over 3 days last time and then I brought her home. I had a male dog here at the time to mate a different bitch and even the following 2 days she prob would have stood for him if they were allowed together... Tart... So I am sure she at least has a few days to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLF Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 All the best with it. Do you mind me asking your stud name? so I can keep an eye out for you in the Kelpie world. Im a new kid on the block 'Surrylea' and Im in Vic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Keeping accurate records is essential to avoid a lot of wasted time. With my girls I noted in a small diary the date they came, the date they would have been ready to mate and the day they went out and kept that list of dates in the back of the diary as well. Each year I just copied the list into the new diary and added as the year went on, so I could immediately look back at the whole history of her seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I keep a separate computer 'health record' for each dog. Basically just set up using 'table' in a word document. It helps me keep a good picture over time, I can pick up any health patterns and keep a record of their care. In it for the bitches I keep information on each season. When she comes in, when she goes out and any other information I have (progesterone tests, days of mating, days when males are more interested and want to get to her etc. Helps me work out when she is due and to note any other patterns. A copy of the basic template I use is attached (hopefully!) Health Record - Template.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I like your template Espinay, thanks for sharing :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasha Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 Well I took her to the dog on Thurs but she wasn't quite ready so looks like she will be right for Sunday on the way home. So she will be day 14 on Sun. Perfect timing. I will either leave her there Sun night and breed her Sun and then Mon am or breed her Sun am and then take her back Tues am for a second mating. I will see how she goes on Sunday. She has had one run today and she went well and she has another run tomorrow so she hopefully will run really well tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasha Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 Well I took her to the dog on Thurs but she wasn't quite ready so looks like she will be right for Sunday on the way home. So she will be day 14 on Sun. Perfect timing. I will either leave her there Sun night and breed her Sun and then Mon am or breed her Sun am and then take her back Tues am for a second mating. I will see how she goes on Sunday. She has had one run today and she went well and she has another run tomorrow so she hopefully will run really well tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aziah Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 WHat was the outcome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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