Puppies Raised Outside By Breeder

[Dree]

Wow, some very interesting responses here, especially regarding strong nerves and socialisation. Thank you all.

The breed in question is a German Shepherd, so technically not an LGD (?).

This is probably too specific a question, but does anyone know if the Breed Survey – specifically, the gun test, the crowd test and the individual approach – is a good assessment of nerves?

I’ve been reading some horror stories, albeit on a predominantly American forum (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/), about show line breeders buying Schutzhund/IPO titles for their dogs, and breeding GSDs with weak nerves but impeccable conformation.

[Wobbly]

O.K. If that's the case that changes how I read it so I guess we will have to wait for a clarification from the author. I certainly dont agree that a dog should be isolated from everything all its life to test it's temperament because its hard to imagine how you would know how it reatcts if you never give it anything to react to.

Thanks for the clarification Steve, I appreciate it.

[Steve]

Wow, some very interesting responses here, especially regarding strong nerves and socialisation. Thank you all.

The breed in question is a German Shepherd, so technically not an LGD (?).

This is probably too specific a question, but does anyone know if the Breed Survey – specifically, the gun test, the crowd test and the individual approach – is a good assessment of nerves?

I've been reading some horror stories, albeit on a predominantly American forum (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/), about show line breeders buying Schutzhund/IPO titles for their dogs, and breeding GSDs with weak nerves but impeccable conformation.

OK my knowledge level on GSD is limited so Ill back out .

[G.S.P.S/K]

My breeder raised the pups completely outside but I wasn't so much worried about the socialisation (or lack thereof) as I was about the pups getting cold at night or eaten by a fox or snake! Luckily they were fine and the kennel was heated.

I think you're right about certain breeds having different socialisation requirements though. Similarly, within breeds there are always different temperaments and hence dogs with different responses to things. Anyway my GSP is 8.5 months and has never batted an eyelid at any indoor noises or goings on. He loves my hairdryer and comes running into the bathroom and sits at my feet when I dry my hair, just waiting to be blow-dried himself. Also I can vacuum around him while he sleeps on his bed! He is also excellent with poeple and other dogs. My other dog on the other hand barks and tries to chase the hair-dryer and vacuum.

The only problem issue I've had with the GSP they may have stemmed from spending his first 8 weeks solely outside is that he took ages to toilet train. Compared to my Staffy/Kelpie X and the 2 dogs I grew up with (Cattle Dog/Kelpie X's), all of which had less than 10 accidents between them inside- my GSP was a bit of a nightmare. He's fine now though.

[alpha bet]

German Shepherds were my breed for 20 years....trained and bred them and worked thru the Breed Survey System..... In the past they were great family dogs, calm and steady. Was pretty hard back then for a dog to get thru Breed Survey with poor temperament - the Surveyors where pretty spot on as well as word got around pretty quick if there were dogs not up to scratch.

I got out of GSD's (although I still have a soft spot for the breed). I stopped breeding them at the end of the 80's as it was getting more difficult to find the right sort of homes for the GSD - as yards have got smaller and people are time poor the average family can't provide the work and stimulus that a GSD needs. Even when I have gone out to buy a new pup it has been very difficult to find the temperaments i like. In my opinion there has been a few things that have caused this shift.

Back in the 70-80's there were many breeders/showies who would attend the GSDC and even the show dogs were trained and socialised. Many of these breeders kept limited numbers of dogs and usually in and around the house - not that many had the formal kennel setups. These breeding dogs were also family pets and the breeders knew the temperaments of the dogs, litters were raised in the house or in the backyard and spent many hours with the family.

Then we started to see a change. The suburbs became harder to keep numbers of dogs and often breeders moved further out, built pens seperate from the house. The dogs lives became seperated and perhaps the breeders where no longer aware of how these dogs were to live with. The end of the Cold War meant more bloodlines coming in from behind the former soviet, often much stronger prey drive more security lines, perhaps stronger working but harder to live with - which doesnt matter so much if you work a dog and put it back in the kennels but does matter if the dog is to live in someones house.

I still have many GSD's coming to training, often over sensitive, hyperactive and erratic, but then these are GSD's who are living as pets.

I can't see my life with a GSD in the future which is such a shame. However it has made me more aware that I need to raise the pups where they have plenty of inside time, as well as fun outside time. The more hours you get to spend with them just hanging out the better I know them and the more relaxed they become - the best way to do this is having the dogs inside with me in the evenings laying around the house while i watch tv or work on the computer.

Edited November 20, 2012 by alpha bet

[alpha bet]

Msass' post implied not just no socialization until 8 weeks, but a prolonged period of non socialization (isolation) until adulthood to assess why the dog truly turns out to be.

I remember attending a training workshop with a breeder of GSD - he didnt allow his dogs to socialise at all.... not even with other dogs - his view was that he wanted the dog to become totally dependant upon him for food water stimulus and thus create an unbreakable bond.... he applied this technique whether it was a dog he bred or one that came into his kennels.

When I questioned him he then gave me a 20 minute lecture about dna and avoided the questions like a good politician - apparently runs his pups on till they are about 8 months or so before he sells them on.... and he admitted that many were sold into families...... although he says that they are trained to a high standard and to the right families......... what a wanker !

Actually met one that he sold to a local family.... mum/dad and 2 young girls.... dog is 10 months old, still entire, fully trained! and cost $5,000. They have had the dog for 3 months now and are having trouble controlling him.

[Tapua]

Wow, some very interesting responses here, especially regarding strong nerves and socialisation. Thank you all.

The breed in question is a German Shepherd, so technically not an LGD (?).

This is probably too specific a question, but does anyone know if the Breed Survey – specifically, the gun test, the crowd test and the individual approach – is a good assessment of nerves?

I’ve been reading some horror stories, albeit on a predominantly American forum (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/), about show line breeders buying Schutzhund/IPO titles for their dogs, and breeding GSDs with weak nerves but impeccable conformation.

Stop reading what the Yanks say - nothing wrong with it - it just not very usefull.

I love GSD's and I have owned a few over the years. I personally like dogs to have a purposefull life and I choose to breed Labs primarily for the purpose of service dogs. However not all make the grade and or not needed for service training at the time. So with that in mind I condition and socialise my pups intensley as babies and I am very very careful with the 'pet' people who get my dogs that they understand that the pups are bred to be stable and intelligent - which mean they will get upto mischief and find ditractions when they are young.

My puppy buyers are well informed about the stages of developement and while I do my bit as a breeder (ENS,Sound tapes, kids, socialisation, Car travel & enriched environment)in the first 8 weeks I expect them to do their bit. So Dree let me ask you what I ask my puppy buyers.

1: Why do you want a GSD?

2: What is your vision of the dog you are wanting as an adult temperament wise?

3: How prepared are you to put the time in as a youngster - training, socialising, conditioning the pups behaviour to fit into your life?

4: Do you know the NILF (Nothing In Life Is Free) principle of conditioning behaviour?

If not read it - wether you want a loving family pet or for your dog to also do something distinctive ie: obedience, show, service dog. You have to live with your GSD and IMO any dog I live with must fit into our life and our routines and be content with that. I have pups I have bred 'come home' for a visit or break - mostly service dogs while their handlers are on leave and within minutes they are settled and fit into the routine here because it is consistant, predicatable and of course for them familiar. NILF is the basis of all my conditioning and I consider a must for any pet owner to understand.