Puppies Raised Outside By Breeder

[Flyntahn]

My very first dog that I got just after I was married was a collie rough. I bought him from a breeder who had had a baby around the time the puppies were born. The puppies were on a farm and had had very little socialisation. When I went to pick my puppy up, he took off over the paddocks to get away and I had to chase him to catch him. He turned out to be the best dog, he grew up with my children and was just wonderful.

[m-sass]

Given that the puppy will be from a guardian breed, which generally require more socialisation (particularly with humans) than, for example, gundog breeds, is this an unwise decision?

That's bullshit. Lack of socialisation is the excuse given by breeders of especially guardian breeds for producing fear biters. A genetically stable dog of sound nerve doesn't need socialising. Dogs that react aggressively in non threatening passive environments are spooks. The one's who can't get over a bad experience and react from a learned behaviour are genetically weak in nerve strength. An unsocialsed dog will project it's true character unmasked by the effects of socialisation. There should be more breeders not socialising some of their breeding stock to be better informed of what they are actually producing in raw character and temperament IMHO.

[Steve]

Given that the puppy will be from a guardian breed, which generally require more socialisation (particularly with humans) than, for example, gundog breeds, is this an unwise decision?

That's bullshit. Lack of socialisation is the excuse given by breeders of especially guardian breeds for producing fear biters. A genetically stable dog of sound nerve doesn't need socialising. Dogs that react aggressively in non threatening passive environments are spooks. The one's who can't get over a bad experience and react from a learned behaviour are genetically weak in nerve strength. An unsocialsed dog will project it's true character unmasked by the effects of socialisation. There should be more breeders not socialising some of their breeding stock to be better informed of what they are actually producing in raw character and temperament IMHO.

Id agree with that .

[Mystiqview]

Thank you all for your feedback.

I guess the only way that I'll know for certain is to visit the breeder myself, meet their dogs, meet the puppies, check out their kennel set up, ask them lots of questions, etc.

Regardless of this, unless you KNOW the breeder and trust their judgement or know someone who can recommend them. I would be visiting the breeder if possible regardless of whether the litter is raised inside or out.

Regardless of breed or the purpose of the mating, you want a pup to fit into YOUR lifestyle. Not someone else's. For each person who has had a bad experience with a pup raised outside, there will be a case where a puppy buyer who has had a bad experience from a dog raised inside. It is really not whether it was outside or in, it is what the breeder does for socialisation and the temperament of the dogs used and also genetics.

A pup raised inside can be just as unsocialised as one raised outside. You are also taking for granted the breeder (and I don't know them) is good at cleaning so the pups will be subjected to vacuum cleaners etc, and they allow or bring in strangers or friends to socialise the pups.

There are still a number of breeders who do not/will not socialise the pups with the puppy buyers/strangers/friends until the 8 week mark, when they are trying to home the puppies. So there I agree with previous statements, it would not matter whether the pups were raised inside or out.

[BJean]

It is not possible for a large breed puppy to be raised inside optimally.

Outside puppies can run and play up and down undulatings hills, dig, fight, climb over many different surfaces - very important for bone and muscle development.

The flat surface inside of four walls is not a challenge and does not give them enough room, nor does it encourage them to wander far from home, and then run as fast as they can home again at dinner time. imo inside of four walls sounds very boring and better suited to growing a sample on a petri dish, not a puppy :)

playing and fighting and getting dirty, chasing, and then sleeping, running, rolling, chewing, exploring is what puppies do.

[Airedaler]

All my litters over 35 years of breeding were whelped and raised outside. Their home is a 3.5x 3.5 metre garden shed fully insulated and with power. The temperature varies but is generally well maintained with heating and cooling - actually the cooling is the hardest. Outside their shed is a large puppy run which has many stimuli in for the education and amusement of the pups. Shade from an overhead creeper and natural sun available to at least half of the run. Apart from virtually overnight there is constant coming and going by a variety of people, from quite young to the other extreme and some of those are regulars some casual visitors.

At about 6 weeks of age individual pups will be brought inside for relatively short periods of time in order to get them used to a different environment. In the vast magority of cases the pups settle into their new home environment very quickly and very rarely is there any trouble with tiolet training as long as the owners are vigilent. Airedale Terriers are what I consider overall to be an easy breed to tiolet train though.

Whelping and raising a ltter inside was never an option for me and looking back to my childhood many years ago we often had farm dogs that raised happy and healthy litters either under our house or in the barn without any human intervention.

Sometimes I think we have made our dogs far too soft by our attachment and our desire to inflict human emotions on an animal that is in most cases perfectly capable of looking after itself in these matters.

[Starkehre]

Given that the puppy will be from a guardian breed, which generally require more socialisation (particularly with humans) than, for example, gundog breeds, is this an unwise decision?

That's bullshit. Lack of socialisation is the excuse given by breeders of especially guardian breeds for producing fear biters. A genetically stable dog of sound nerve doesn't need socialising. Dogs that react aggressively in non threatening passive environments are spooks. The one's who can't get over a bad experience and react from a learned behaviour are genetically weak in nerve strength. An unsocialsed dog will project it's true character unmasked by the effects of socialisation. There should be more breeders not socialising some of their breeding stock to be better informed of what they are actually producing in raw character and temperament IMHO.

Id agree with that .

me too.

[mixeduppup]

Given that the puppy will be from a guardian breed, which generally require more socialisation (particularly with humans) than, for example, gundog breeds, is this an unwise decision?

That's bullshit. Lack of socialisation is the excuse given by breeders of especially guardian breeds for producing fear biters. A genetically stable dog of sound nerve doesn't need socialising. Dogs that react aggressively in non threatening passive environments are spooks. The one's who can't get over a bad experience and react from a learned behaviour are genetically weak in nerve strength. An unsocialsed dog will project it's true character unmasked by the effects of socialisation. There should be more breeders not socialising some of their breeding stock to be better informed of what they are actually producing in raw character and temperament IMHO.

Id agree with that .

me too.

Me three

[Wobbly]

Given that the puppy will be from a guardian breed, which generally require more socialisation (particularly with humans) than, for example, gundog breeds, is this an unwise decision?

That's bullshit. Lack of socialisation is the excuse given by breeders of especially guardian breeds for producing fear biters. A genetically stable dog of sound nerve doesn't need socialising. Dogs that react aggressively in non threatening passive environments are spooks. The one's who can't get over a bad experience and react from a learned behaviour are genetically weak in nerve strength. An unsocialsed dog will project it's true character unmasked by the effects of socialisation. There should be more breeders not socialising some of their breeding stock to be better informed of what they are actually producing in raw character and temperament IMHO.

Id agree with that .

me too.

Me three

Group thinking sheep.

Denying a pack animal the opportunity to socialise is moronic and cruel.

[espinay2]

Given that the puppy will be from a guardian breed, which generally require more socialisation (particularly with humans) than, for example, gundog breeds, is this an unwise decision?

That's bullshit. Lack of socialisation is the excuse given by breeders of especially guardian breeds for producing fear biters. A genetically stable dog of sound nerve doesn't need socialising. Dogs that react aggressively in non threatening passive environments are spooks. The one's who can't get over a bad experience and react from a learned behaviour are genetically weak in nerve strength. An unsocialsed dog will project it's true character unmasked by the effects of socialisation. There should be more breeders not socialising some of their breeding stock to be better informed of what they are actually producing in raw character and temperament IMHO.

Id agree with that .

me too.

Me three

Group thinking sheep.

Denying a pack animal the opportunity to socialise is moronic and cruel.

I think it really depends what you mean by socialisation, or lack of it.

Dogs that experience a range of sights and sounds and are taught to discriminate as well as subjected to basic handling by its owners and the vet, taught to walk on a lead and travel in a vehicle on occasion (such as in a farm situaiton where they see other dogs, other animals etc but don't often leave the farm) may be considered by modern standards to be 'unsocialised'. And yet a dog with a firm temperament will still take new experiences in its stride (such as being brought down from its farm in the Pyrenees in France to attend a show once a year).

I have seen this in my breed where you will have dogs that are shy and do not handle new experiences or change well (and will not pass or grade well in the obligatory Temperament Test at the French show because of their reactiveness), and others that naturally take everything in their stride. I even see some differences in the dogs I own too. Some needed more careful handling when young and were more reactive through the fear periods while others naturally accepted anything and everything in their stride without issue, and don't need to be 'taught' about every little thing. These traits appear definitely linked to specific lines as upbringing until 8 weeks of age was basically the same for all. And I definitely know which type of temperament I prefer!

I do feel too that 'over' socialisation - particularly during fear periods, can be just as damaging as not enough in some situations. The idea of socialisation is to give the dog good experiences so they learn to accept and ignore things about them and to discriminate about what is a threat and what is not. Pushing a dog to 'face' its fears can actually cause a dog to have more fear! IMO making sure a dogs experiences remain positive can mean keeping a dog at home and AWAY from things for a time.

Edited November 9, 2012 by espinay2

[BlaznHotAussies]

My dog spent the first 3 years of his life outside and lived inside for a while when I was living with friends (their dog, similar breed, is an inside dog so it just worked out that way rather than kicking one dog out all the time...) adjusted fine :) house training was an issue but I think if he were a puppy it would've been very different. He was a bit bewildered for a little while with the louder noises inside but got used to it in no time

When I got him he was also pretty unsocialised - so very timid. Since I got him I've been taking every opportunity to get him used to going out and being around different people. Now when people visit he'll come and greet them rather than hide So as long as the breeder spends time with the pups and gets them used to humans and possibly even other animals I don't think whether they're raised inside or outside is too much of a problem.

[Rysup]

My first few litters were born and raised in our garage, with a run off the back, they had no access to grass at all, just cement. But never had toilet training issues. When we moved, the litters were born inside in a spare room, or the dining room. But once they are up and turn into those pooing machines, they get moved outside anyway. Medium to Large breeds are very hard to raise fully indoors, and they need just as much exposure to stimuli outside as in. I think if you socialise your puppy properly, it wont matter where it was born and spent the first few weeks of its life - its the formative months after you get it that matter more.

[Steve]

Given that the puppy will be from a guardian breed, which generally require more socialisation (particularly with humans) than, for example, gundog breeds, is this an unwise decision?

That's bullshit. Lack of socialisation is the excuse given by breeders of especially guardian breeds for producing fear biters. A genetically stable dog of sound nerve doesn't need socialising. Dogs that react aggressively in non threatening passive environments are spooks. The one's who can't get over a bad experience and react from a learned behaviour are genetically weak in nerve strength. An unsocialsed dog will project it's true character unmasked by the effects of socialisation. There should be more breeders not socialising some of their breeding stock to be better informed of what they are actually producing in raw character and temperament IMHO.

Id agree with that .

me too.

Me three

Group thinking sheep.

Denying a pack animal the opportunity to socialise is moronic and cruel.

Who said anything about denying a pack animal socialisation with its pack? Up until its about 7 weeks old it needs to be socialised with its Mum and litter and after that it is better to have it interacting with humans or in the case of LGD with humans and especially the animals it will be guarding but if its well bred in my opinion whether it is judged by someone who has not bred LGD to be moronic and cruel or not if it doesn't get these things at that time it catches up without a problem. Its in the main about the breeding not necessarily what it is or is not exposed to before its 8 weeks old. My pups are all socialised with other dogs, the species they will go home to and humans but Im confident that if they weren't they would still be the dogs they are bred to be with little need for adjustment. You should be able to take any LGD regardless of its socialisation pre 8 weeks and put it into any environment and have it adjust without a problem.

[Wobbly]

Who said anything about denying a pack animal socialisation with its pack?

The post you agreed with.

That's bullshit. Lack of socialisation is the excuse given by breeders of especially guardian breeds for producing fear biters. A genetically stable dog of sound nerve doesn't need socialising. Dogs that react aggressively in non threatening passive environments are spooks. The one's who can't get over a bad experience and react from a learned behaviour are genetically weak in nerve strength. An unsocialsed dog will project it's true character unmasked by the effects of socialisation. There should be more breeders not socialising some of their breeding stock to be better informed of what they are actually producing in raw character and temperament IMHO.

[LizT]

Let's also remember that while it's early development rests in the hands of the breeder, a pup doesn't stop learning at 8 weeks. It's continued growth, learning and development then falls on the shoulders of it's new family.

[Steve]

Who said anything about denying a pack animal socialisation with its pack?

The post you agreed with.

That's bullshit. Lack of socialisation is the excuse given by breeders of especially guardian breeds for producing fear biters. A genetically stable dog of sound nerve doesn't need socialising. Dogs that react aggressively in non threatening passive environments are spooks. The one's who can't get over a bad experience and react from a learned behaviour are genetically weak in nerve strength. An unsocialsed dog will project it's true character unmasked by the effects of socialisation. There should be more breeders not socialising some of their breeding stock to be better informed of what they are actually producing in raw character and temperament IMHO.

Yes I know and I still agree with it. If the dog is well bred and has a sound temperament no matter what happens to it pre 8 weeks it should still be able to behave as it is bred to behave. If this were not true LGD's would be much harder to cope with. No matter what I do , no matter what I do or dont socialise a LGD with it should still be able to go to a new home to a totally alien environment and job and cope without being a nervous wreck or fear biter. If this were not the case then we wouldnt be able to have them working with so many different species which most times they are not exposed to until they are over 8 weeks.Just as it should be able to become part of a mob of sheep, chickens,penguins or guinea pigs if it hasnt been socialised with them prior to 8 weeks it should also be able to become part of a human family with or without full on human socialisation. I suppose much depends as well on what you class as socialisation but this thread was specifically about human socialisation within an inside human environment with a LGD.

edited to add I dont own horses but I can still send a pup home to a property with horses and it copes as if its been with them all its life - this doesnt happen because its been socilaised with horses but because of it's breeding.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Steve

[megan_]

Msass' post implied not just no socialization until 8 weeks, but a prolonged period of non socialization (isolation) until adulthood to assess why the dog truly turns out to be.

[Steve]

Msass' post implied not just no socialization until 8 weeks, but a prolonged period of non socialization (isolation) until adulthood to assess why the dog truly turns out to be.

I didnt read it as that implication as in order to accomplish that it would need to be completely isolated and not even have contact or be socialised with the animals its charged with caring for all of its life though I do know people who take a LGD home and drop in a paddock and only revisit it every few weeks where for its entire life it has very limited human interaction .Some farmers make a point of not socialising them at all with humans in fear that it may break the bond it will have for the species it is bonded to.

[Wobbly]

Msass' post implied not just no socialization until 8 weeks, but a prolonged period of non socialization (isolation) until adulthood to assess why the dog truly turns out to be.

I didnt read it as that implication as in order to accomplish that it would need to be completely isolated and not even have contact or be socialised with the animals its charged with caring for all of its life though I do know people who take a LGD home and drop in a paddock and only revisit it every few weeks where for its entire life it has very limited human interaction .Some farmers make a point of not socialising them at all with humans in fear that it may break the bond it will have for the species it is bonded to.

I read it the way Megan is reading it.

I don't know much about LGDs (nothing in fact) but I would assume that the species it is charged with guarding becomes it's pack, in which case spending time with that species IS socialisation for the dog (correct me if I'm wrong).

My interpretation of the Msass's post is that socialisation of all types (human, dog AND in the case of LGD's the species it will be caring for) should be avoided.

[Steve]

O.K. If that's the case that changes how I read it so I guess we will have to wait for a clarification from the author. I certainly dont agree that a dog should be isolated from everything all its life to test it's temperament because its hard to imagine how you would know how it reatcts if you never give it anything to react to.