Puppies Raised Outside By Breeder

[Dree]

Hi all,

In several months' time, I'm thinking about getting a puppy from a breeder who raises the litter outside of the family home, in an outbuilding.

Given that the puppy will be from a guardian breed, which generally require more socialisation (particularly with humans) than, for example, gundog breeds, is this an unwise decision?

I've read Ian Dunbar and Gwen Bailey's books on raising a well-behaved and well-adjusted dog. Both, particularly Dunbar, caution against getting a puppy that was raised exclusively in an outbuilding, kennel, etc.

The breeder did mention that the puppies will receive lots of handling, and will be socialised by meeting visitors and being exposed to their adult dogs.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts. :)

[Crisovar]

It is so very dependent on the individual Breeder, their methods of raising and the temperaments of their breeding animals. All things to be considered when you are choosing a Breeder. What made you choose this Breeder in particular? Just because animals are kenneled does not mean they are not exposed to wide range of experiences and people.

Do you know anyone with dogs from this particular breeder? Have you met them and their animals?

[espinay2]

As mentioned, it really depends on the breeder. There are some breeders who raise their dogs 'outside' that I would choose way above some raised in a 'house' as they get far more handling, socialisation and exposure to a wide range of experiences, sights and sounds. It really is something that needs to be looked at on a case by case basis rather than a blanket yes or no. As mentioned too, you also need to look at the 'whole package' that contributes to the creation and upbringing of the puppies - not just one single element.

Edited November 5, 2012 by espinay2

[Steve]

You cant tell. if they are inside and only one person lives there and they are at work most days that could be less rather than more .It depends on the breeder and how they manage it all. Having them stuck in a crate inside isnt necessarily any better either.

[OSoSwift]

I do not have LG breeds somay be off track

I do not think the fact that the puppies are raided in an out building is much of an isdue as long as the dogs have plenty of exposure to people outdoors etc, etc.

They are after all a dog who's job it is to live outside to do their work. Being raised inside doesn't necessarily help them with eventually living and working outside. Having said that they could be raised inside then moved to an outbuilding when they are older and still be raised to work successfully.

I would ask if a visit with their other dogs is possible and if it is possible as far as timing goes see where they will be raised. A LG breeder on here from memory does just that and is very highly regarded.

Edited November 5, 2012 by OSoSwift

[MalteseLuna]

Are you intending the dog to be a pet (i.e. inside with you/your family) or a livestock guardian/working dog?

Personally if it was for a pet then no.

[ellz]

I've seen anecdotal evidence to the effect that dogs which are raised outdoors from dogs which have also been raised outdoors are harder to toilet train and don't react the same way to indoors stimuli.

Agreed, it does depend upon the breeder and their setup, but I tend to agree with MalteseLuna on this one.....

[Dree]

Thanks for the quick replies. :)

I choose this breeder (a husband and wife team) because of their dogs’ low hip and elbow scores (they’ve received some medals for their achievements) and their lines. They’ve also been breeding for a few decades and have been a pleasure to deal with. Although we’re only spoken on the phone and corresponded via e-mail, they seem like good people who love and care for their dogs.

I don’t know anyone with dogs from this breeder, but, at the risk of coming across as a stalker, there is someone on this forum with a dog from them.

No, I haven’t met the breeder or their dogs. At the moment, we’re still in the correspondence stage.

I’m just looking for a pet/companion dog who will be both an inside and outside dog.

My main concern is that the puppy won’t have sufficient exposure to all of the smells, sounds and sights of a typical household. E.g. people coming and going, pots banging, the kettle boiling, the doorbell ringing, people thumping around upstairs, doors slamming.

Here’s what Dunbar has to say (the bolded part worries me):

‘There is not much point in choosing a puppy that has been raised in the relative social isolation of a backyard, basement, barn, garage, or kennel, where there is precious little opportunity for interaction with people and where a puppy has become accustomed to soiling her living area and yapping a lot. Puppies raised in physical seclusion and partial social isolation are hardly prepared for household living, and they are certainly not prepared for encounters with children or men. Backyard and kennel-raised puppies are certainly not pet-quality dogs; they are livestock on par with veal calves and battery hens. Look elsewhere! Look for litters born and raised indoors—in a kitchen or living room.’

Edited November 5, 2012 by Dree

[LizT]

In my own personal experience a Cavalier puppy we bought was kept outdoors in a stable where all the dogs were. She is always happy and relaxed around us but doesn't take to visitors easily and takes months to adjust to any new regular visitors who come here. Certainly not typical of a Cavalier.

She is probablydefinitely the least friendly to strangers of all our dogs. I was worried her nervousness around others would be passed on to her pups but they are all happy well adjusted dogs due to the stimuli offered them as babies.

I believe if a dog is to be kept outdoors due to large breed and litter size it is of utmost importance that the stimuli be brought to them.

[mixeduppup]

Guardian breed as in LGD or Working dog such as GSD, Rottie etc?

LGDs are frequently born and raised outside, so that's not unusual. A lot of working lines gsds and rotts are also whelped in a kennel situation rather than in the family home.

[Dree]

LizT, your experience is similar to my friend's, albeit she has a Great Dane instead of a CKCS.

Mixeduppup, the breeders breed show line GSDs.

[mixeduppup]

LizT, your experience is similar to my friend's, albeit she has a Great Dane instead of a CKCS.

Mixeduppup, the breeders breed show line GSDs.

Didn't see that. Well maybe they don't have room in their house or they just choose to whelp outside. As long as the dogs get ample people time and the building is in good condition I don't see the problem.

[Crisovar]

From my own experience there are breeders who can raise a pup anywhere to be a successful family member and there are breeders who cannot, and it has little to do with WHERE the pups are raises. All sorts of noise and activity happens around well raised pups, clattering feed dishes and buckets, radios, people going about their daily activities with pups underfoot, lawn mowers, pressure cleaners the list goes on. That quote seems to refer to Breeders who are barren females who raise their pups in a dungeon of silence. :laugh: Certainly the extreme.

There are many drawbacks to having a litter of large breed pups like GSD permanently in your kitchen, and not everyone has the space inside their home to enable this. That doesn't mean that pups are secluded and locked away from the world.

I have seen pups that do not know what grass is, and have never felt earth under their feet.

There is no single correct place to raise pups, and many busy kennel situations see pups exposed to much more than some house raised litters.

This is where you have to research, and if possible go see for yourself.

[Salukifan]

I would visit the breeder and pups and decide for myself.

It will be as plain as the nose on your face whether the pups are socially confident around strangers etc.

[Ons]

both my golden retreivers were raised outside, there simply was no room in my girl's breeder's home, with my boy it was a kennel set out.

both were well socialised and are fine, that would be my concern, interaction with others, what they have been exposed to, rather than being raised inside or outside.

[Rebanne]

both were well socialised and are fine, that would be my concern, interaction with others, what they have been exposed to, rather than being raised inside or outside.

agree, and having had greyhounds coming into the house, for the first time, as adults, well age had no bearing on how they behaved, reacted, coped, etc and everything to do with their baseline temperament.

[dancinbcs]

Most large breeds are raised outside and even medium breeds go outside from about 4 weeks because it is simply not realistic to give them enough room in a house. My BC litters always had half a suburban yard during the day with a large outdoor run and shed at night. The main reason to keep them indoors until 3-4 weeks is convenience for the breeder. Simply ask the breeder if they normally give the puppies some individual "in the house" time to get used to household noises as many breeders do this as routine. Socialisation usually depends on how many people come to visit the litter. A lot of people that live alone or just a couple do not have many people coming and going in the house anyway so being indoors or out wouldn't matter.

[oakway]

Most large breeds are raised outside and even medium breeds go outside from about 4 weeks because it is simply not realistic to give them enough room in a house. My BC litters always had half a suburban yard during the day with a large outdoor run and shed at night. The main reason to keep them indoors until 3-4 weeks is convenience for the breeder. Simply ask the breeder if they normally give the puppies some individual "in the house" time to get used to household noises as many breeders do this as routine. Socialisation usually depends on how many people come to visit the litter. A lot of people that live alone or just a couple do not have many people coming and going in the house anyway so being indoors or out wouldn't matter.

+1

[Dree]

Thank you all for your feedback.

I guess the only way that I'll know for certain is to visit the breeder myself, meet their dogs, meet the puppies, check out their kennel set up, ask them lots of questions, etc.

[Zug Zug]

I think what you really want to know is how much socialisation they will have with people, and in the house

Not so much where they sleep, if you know what I mean

Having said that, it is something I would take seriously. If they are away from the house (and family) in kennels, then surely it's harder to dedicate the time and energy to bring them all in and do all the socialisation than it would be if they slept inside.

Certainly the toilet training side of things is something that would concern me. Dogs in kennels usually toilet inside their kennel and that gets them off to a bad start. Dogs raised inside are often taken outside multiple times a day to wee, and that is a really good start (this is what was done with my most recent puppy - and BOY it made a massive difference he was so easy to house train!!)

If it is possible, go there and have a look LONG before there are any puppies on the ground (because we all know what happens when we look at a litter of puppies, don't we?).

Ask yourself the questions: Do the dogs come in and out with the people much? Are they happy, relaxed animals? Do they respond well to you? Are they the kinds of dogs you would like to live with in your own home.

Then go away, think about it, and be very honest with yourself about it.

You'll know.