Ocd And Self Harming Behaviours

[noisymina]

YG - the Tryptophan will do her no harm and could be part of the solution. I'd shove that into her right away and keep it up. Adding B vits, and Calcium Ascorbate. B vits will help calm too as I can imagine her diet was lacking as well. :)

It must be quite harrowing to watch the poor little mite.

[Flick_Mac]

YG - there are other drugs that work differently to Clomicalm and may have a better effect - I'd second the recommendation of a veterinary behaviourist, or a vet with an interest in behaviour.

ETA: from some quick research into my lecture notes and the veterinary forum we have access to fluoxetine (prozac) seems to be popular for OCD type behaviour - maybe you could trial it?

The other thing to consider (I'm sure you have) is that maybe she has some arthritis in her lower limbs - although from what you've said this does seem more behavioural - worth thinking about though!

Good luck :)

Edited November 4, 2012 by Flick_Mac

[ash1]

Her poor little feet look so sore and inflammed. This is not addressing the root cause of the problem, but in conjunction with the herb/vitamin/medication suggestions above, could you put booties on her feet, or even bandage them? Perhaps if they were bandaged you could put a soothing cream inside the bandage (or aloe).

You know when kids have windburned lips and keep licking them because the licking soothes, but actually makes the initial problem worse? This may be part of the problem with this little girl - her poor wee feet look sore and possibly itchy, so the licking soothes. It becomes a vicious circle.

[yellowgirl]

O that's upsetting behaviour, I couldn't even watch the vids, too heartbreaking for me to see. Makes you wonder what the poor little girl has been through for it to have affected her so deeply. Perhaps you could check the training subforum, the behaviourist and knowledgeable people who might be able to help you spend more time reading over there than in this section I think.

I have no advice, stuff like that is way beyond my scope of experience, I just wanted to say good on you for helping her and give you best wishes in finding her some peace of mind to enable her to stop the self harming behaviours.

Thanks Wobbly, I'll have a look through the other sections and see if there's anything extra there. xx

I think you need to see a specialist veterinary behaviourist if you can.

Very happy to go that route Aidan. The behaviourists that have seen Daisy so far have been awesome and have come out on their own time to help, but neither of them are Vet Behaviourists. Any SA recommendations would be appreciated if anyone knows of one or has used a good one here.

I found those videos distressing to watch, that poor little dog and you for having to try to deal with it. I know she hasn't got teeth but what about if you offered her a very meaty knuckly bone or something similarly tasty to suck and lick, would it take her mind off it a bit. I suppose it's just transferring the behaviour, but at least she's not injuring herself. Can she go for walks, would tiring her out help as well?

The bone idea is a good one Kirislin, unfortunately Daisy just can't be crated, she hates being separated from the other dogs and will scream and bash against the crate continuously until she's let out. Same thing if she's put in another room or separated at all from everyone else. The trouble is that there are 9 other dogs here at the moment and it's terribly hard to give just one of them a bone or any long-term chew without separating them. Interestingly enough, Daisy is fine if I have to go out, but that's probably because she's with the other dogs.

Poor little dog..

have you tried acupuncture ?

I would also suggest chiro and /or bowen therapy

I have seen chiro help a chronic bed sucker /front leg nibbler ... not cure, but certainly make a big difference :)

Daisy went to the Chiropractor last month Pers. All our bubs have a Chiropractor visit as part of their health checks :)

She's actually in pretty good nick, the Chiro thought she may even be younger than the 10 years that was estimated at the pound. She didn't need any adjustments or treatments at all. Our Chiro also does acupuncture, he's on leave at the moment but I'll definitely ask him about that option when he gets back.

[persephone]

She didn't need any adjustments or treatments at all.

Mitch used have some kinesiology/chiro on points at the front of his shoulders etc .. it helped :)

[yellowgirl]

I'll try to shorten this a bit and not be too technical.

OCD largely results from a chemical imbalance in the brain.

Specifically, low levels of the neurotransmitter serotonin are linked to the condition, but dopamine and norepinephrine also play a small role.

Serotonin is important for mood regulation, sleep, learning and calmness. It is synthesised from the chemical tryptophan, an amino acid derived from foods containing B vitamins. Medications used to treat OCD in humans, called selective serotonin re uptake inhibitors -- or SSRIs -- aim to raise serotonin levels in the brain and reduce the symptoms. The process of neurotransmitter communications can't happen without the assistance of amino acids, which come from proteins in the foods the dog eats and with the help of vitamin nutrients like B-6. For serotonin to form, the amino acid tryptophan has to be present. Tryptophan is formed from precursor coenzymes found in the B vitamins -- specifically vitamins B-6 and B-12.

But don't go out and buy tryptophan supplements because it won't work on its own and needs other amino acids and vitamins and minerals to assimilate properly and do what you want it to do - metabolise small enough to get to the brain and change the blood levels.

When the amino acids are metabolised into small enough molecules,they are sent to the brain, where they cross the blood-brain barrier and head to their destination for neuron signaling and synthesis into serotonin.

For a variety of reason which I won't expand on due to its history this dog may be more affected by this and its why this type of behaviour is often seen in puppies which have been taken off their Mums too early without the necessary love and stimulation replaced by a human. Replace this with the fact it has no teeth and it is more complicated. Of course sometimes dogs can't produce enough serotonin due to a genetic component and why OCD is more common in some breeds than in others.

I have seen some miracles occur with a simple change in diet and it would be worth a go. A vet named David Urich has some good results,research and stories to tell as well.

What I'm about to suggest won't have any negative side effects so there's nothing to lose if you are prepared to give it a shot.

If this were my dog I would give the dog board certified Aloe Vera Juice because among other things Aloe contains all amino acids which are in small amounts and which can interact with each other. It is an extremely effective intracellular antioxidant and free radical scavenger. Is not digested by the enzyme systems,it is taken up into the cell INTACT as it is absorbed through special receptor sites which exist within the digestive tract. It's 100% non-toxic with no negative side effects. Though if you over dose you see some runny poos. It can be used simultaneously with any medication with NO contra-indications. The dog is probably also not getting enough B vitamins which are easily destroyed by heat and storage I would also give it some baby vitamin drops 4 times a day and vitamin C 4 times per day too.

If it is an allergy there will be no harm done and the Aloe and vitamins should address that as well with Aloe often being used for this purpose anyway.

If you are interested in giving it a go Ill sort out dosages for you if you give me the dog's weight.

Julie

Thank you so much Julie! I have the Blackmores Multi + Tryptophan here https://www.pawbyblackmores.com/products/multi-tryptophan-chews, I'll start including that with her Clomicalm (serotonin) today. If you have the time could you let me know if the Blackmores supplement has all the necessary amino acids, vitamins, etc to work effectively as you've described? I'll read up on David Urich too.

I'd be very appreciative for the other information too, thank you so much! Daisy weighs 3kg.

eta - so sorry Julie, Ive just edited this - Daisy weighs 3kgs not 4 kgs. xx

Edited November 7, 2012 by yellowgirl

[ness]

Vet behaviorist in SA who use to work out of Willunga vet clinic - Dr Tracey Stephenson. I presume she is still there.

Willunga Veterinary Services

ph 08 8556 2075

Edited November 4, 2012 by ness

[yellowgirl]

I've had a few dogs with difficult OCD type behaviours over the years and haven't always found something that worked all that well, I've just learned to live with it at the time but it is really difficult when they are hurting themselves and/or annoying your other dogs.

PAWS rescued a little girl from Renbury last year in a horrendous state, matted, rotten teeth but very sweet, she was a little poodle cross on the older side.

She was with me for quite a few months. Once she'd recovered from all the initial treatment and become physically well again she started endless licking. She mainly focussed on my sofas and would spend all evening going round and round them, licking all the way, she did occasionally transfer to my legs or the other dogs or beds. It was irritating but otherwise she was very well.

I had a very special couple call about her, I explained all her issues (partially sighted) and the endless licking. They had had very difficult old dogs over the years and thought they would take her on trial. They had leather sofas and for the first couple of weeks she didn't lick anything at all so we thought that was hopefully the end of it, we thought perhaps it was stress related. Unfortunately she started up again but they didn't mind, they thought she was lovely and she was very happy there. After a few months (they were home all day with her), she then began to have the odd fit and after 10 months they lost her to a major fit. The vet said the licking was definitely linked with neuro issues but had not put her on any medication.

For another dog with difficult behaviours due to dementia and previous ill treatment, I had great results with Chinese herbs.

It sounds like you are trying everything you can, she's lucky she's found someone so dedicated.

PAWS recently took another OCD type dog from Renbury (a Malt type) and he was put on meds with good results - I'll find out which one for you.

Thank you for your support as always Dogmad :) I'd appreciate it if you could let me know which meds worked for the PAWS dog. Daisy is currently on Clomicalm.

Poor little girl.

Sorry I don't have any advice, other than what has already been suggested, but I hope you can find some answers.

Thanks Kayla xx

YG - the Tryptophan will do her no harm and could be part of the solution. I'd shove that into her right away and keep it up. Adding B vits, and Calcium Ascorbate. B vits will help calm too as I can imagine her diet was lacking as well. :)

It must be quite harrowing to watch the poor little mite.

Hey Noisy :) She's had her breakfast already but I'll start including the Tryptophan + Multi with her dinner tonight. All the dogs have an arthritis supplement included with their meals which also contains calcium ascorbate. Yes, it is hard to watch but she's responding to the stop commands pretty well now so we're making some small progress. xx

YG - there are other drugs that work differently to Clomicalm and may have a better effect - I'd second the recommendation of a veterinary behaviourist, or a vet with an interest in behaviour.

ETA: from some quick research into my lecture notes and the veterinary forum we have access to fluoxetine (prozac) seems to be popular for OCD type behaviour - maybe you could trial it?

The other thing to consider (I'm sure you have) is that maybe she has some arthritis in her lower limbs - although from what you've said this does seem more behavioural - worth thinking about though!

Good luck :)

Thank you Flick Mac. I'm pretty sure that the Clomicalm is the 'new prozac' for dogs, I remember the vet mentioning something about that at the time we were first discussing medication. I just posted a minute ago about arthritis, Daisy has had a Chiro check and she doesn't have any arthritis issues (one thing to be thankful for). It's all worth thinking about so your input is appreciated. xx

Her poor little feet look so sore and inflammed. This is not addressing the root cause of the problem, but in conjunction with the herb/vitamin/medication suggestions above, could you put booties on her feet, or even bandage them? Perhaps if they were bandaged you could put a soothing cream inside the bandage (or aloe).

You know when kids have windburned lips and keep licking them because the licking soothes, but actually makes the initial problem worse? This may be part of the problem with this little girl - her poor wee feet look sore and possibly itchy, so the licking soothes. It becomes a vicious circle.

Hi Ash, I've tried socks, booties, bandages, etc. If she can pull them off she will, if she can't, she goes for another part of her body, usually her flanks or her tail. If that fails, she scoots on her bottom. I think she goes for her feet because they're the most accessible but the behaviour itself will continue in other areas even if she can't get to them. xx

[yellowgirl]

She didn't need any adjustments or treatments at all.

Mitch used have some kinesiology/chiro on points at the front of his shoulders etc .. it helped :)

I forgot to mention that Daisy has a TTouch massage each night. She's also had several visits from qualified Massage Therapists and Reiki Masters ... when I say I'm willing to try anything, I mean anything! :)

Vet behaviorist in SA who use to work out of Willunga vet clinic - Dr Tracey Stephenson. I presume she is still there.

Willunga Veterinary Services

ph 08 8556 2075

Thank you ness :) It's a heck of a distance away but I'll ring tomorrow xx

[ness]

I just googled and found this. It looks to be the same person :laugh:. The website link is current.

Dr Tracey Henderson - South Australia

BSc, BVMS, MACVSc (Veterinary Behaviour)

Adelaide Veterinary Behaviour Services

PO Box 554

WILLUNGA SA 5172

Mobile: 0488 038 054

Fax: (08) 8536 0006

Email: [email protected]

Website: www.avbs.net.au

[yellowgirl]

I just googled and found this. It looks to be the same person :laugh:. The website link is current.

Dr Tracey Henderson - South Australia

BSc, BVMS, MACVSc (Veterinary Behaviour)

Adelaide Veterinary Behaviour Services

PO Box 554

WILLUNGA SA 5172

Mobile: 0488 038 054

Fax: (08) 8536 0006

Email: [email protected]

Website: www.avbs.net.au

That's brilliant, thanks Ness! I'll get the questionnaires filled out and sent off. Daisy has already had a full blood panel done so they'll have that info too. I couldn't find any mention of costs though.

[yellowgirl]

I forgot to mention that Daisy also had a trial with SOE Bioremedies. The lovely man who runs it, Christian, made up a preparation especially for Daisy. Unfortunately there was no change in her behaviours but I did think it was so nice of him to do it. Sam, the behaviourist that Christian works with, was one of the behaviourists who came out to see Daisy too. Such lovely people .. just wanted to mention it :)

One of our facebook supporters suggested these guys http://www.healwithease.com/products-page/remedies-for-pets/personalised-healing-program-for-pets-2

They sound similar to some of the things we've already tried, including the SOE Bioremedies, but I'll put it in the 'things to look into' box.

[schnauzer]

Hi Yellowgirl

Has she had skin scrapings done on all her feet?

[CrazyCresties]

Sounds very familiar YG We are the 5th home for our Daisy, so to say she had an unsettled start to life is an understatement. She was handed into the rescue climbing the walls with pain as her coat was so matted, her ears were matted to her head and she had a bad ear infection She hadn't been walked or socialized and foot chewing seemed to be her stress outlet.

This was a couple of months after we got her - the red is staining from the saliva, not raw flesh, but as you can imagine her feet were pretty tender.

and this was a couple of years later :)

Where we lived then there weren't really any behaviorists etc. but with a good diet, exercise and a stable environment the habit gradually lessened. We tried the boots, but they didn't help either.

She still has periods where she will focus on one foot, and like your Daisy it seems a total obsession - she will sometimes squeal whilst chewing, but still carry on

I can't offer any magic solution, and it sounds like you are trying all you can for this little one, but just wanted to give you a bit of hope really :)

Also, how patient is Sarge! :laugh:

[sas]

Good Luck with the Vet Behaviourist, I don't think you have any other options.

[yellowgirl]

Hi Yellowgirl

Has she had skin scrapings done on all her feet?

Yes she has Schnauzer. All clear.

Sounds very familiar YG We are the 5th home for our Daisy, so to say she had an unsettled start to life is an understatement. She was handed into the rescue climbing the walls with pain as her coat was so matted, her ears were matted to her head and she had a bad ear infection She hadn't been walked or socialized and foot chewing seemed to be her stress outlet.

This was a couple of months after we got her - the red is staining from the saliva, not raw flesh, but as you can imagine her feet were pretty tender.

and this was a couple of years later :)

Where we lived then there weren't really any behaviorists etc. but with a good diet, exercise and a stable environment the habit gradually lessened. We tried the boots, but they didn't help either.

She still has periods where she will focus on one foot, and like your Daisy it seems a total obsession - she will sometimes squeal whilst chewing, but still carry on

I can't offer any magic solution, and it sounds like you are trying all you can for this little one, but just wanted to give you a bit of hope really :)

Also, how patient is Sarge! :laugh:

It's good to hear other stories Crazy Cresties, thank goodness your Daisy had you for her final home, you've done a wonderful job with her. She's beautiful :) What's interesting with our Daisy is that within about 1/2 an hour after she's had a go at her feet, there's no residual inflammation or irritation as there often is with feet lickers . And yes, Sarge is pretty patient ..lol. Although to be honest I think he thinks that he's getting a massage and thoroughly enjoys it :D

[yellowgirl]

Good Luck with the Vet Behaviourist, I don't think you have any other options.

Thanks sas

[ness]

Yellowgirl I sent you a PM re costs but it was a few years ago when I received the information so it may well have changed.

[Aidan3]

I'm pretty sure that the Clomicalm is the 'new prozac' for dogs, I remember the vet mentioning something about that at the time we were first discussing medication.

Clomicalm is an older style drug, a tri-cyclic anti-depressant, and is the drug of choice for separation anxiety. Prozac (fluoxetine) is more commonly prescribed for obsessive-compulsive behaviours (called "stereotypies" in animal behaviour).

Tryptophan can be given as a supplement, usually with a Vit B complex and some carbohydrates. Evidence reported in the recent literature suggests that increasing the % of tryptophan to other aminos in protein is sufficient to get it across the blood-brain barrier, particular if insulin is raised a little to shuttle other large neutral aminos towards other parts of the body. It does need other nutrients to eventually be turned into serotonin in the brain, but the dietary deficiency is more likely to be tryptophan (corn based foods are a likely culprit) rather than any other nutritional deficiency. I would just give it a try in the interim, it might help.

But I think prozac is your best bet, so it's great that you're going to see a veterinary behaviourist. They'll take a thorough history and prescribe the most appropriate drug if required.

[yellowgirl]

Here's a bit more info to add to the confusion. Daisy was surrendered to the pound along with two other dogs that she lived with. They were all badly neglected, filthy, matted coats, extremely smelly, infested with fleas, ear mites, injuries, open wounds, skin infections, the whole nine yards. The other two dogs were similar looking terrier crosses. One of them was euthanised at the pound due to the extent of his neglect and injuries The other one, Teddy, a blind terrier cross boy, came here with Daisy.

Teddy had very badly infected feet (apart from all the other issues mentioned above), there were old wounds, new wounds and open, weeping sores, mostly underneath in and around the pads, as well as up around his hocks. He was (and still is to some degree) a classic 'feet licker' due to the constant infections. These pictures show his feet a few weeks after he came into care and they are already in the process of healing.

These are TEDDY's feet, not Daisy's.

It's taken a lot of work to get Teddy's feet into reasonable condition and I have to keep an eye on him because he will start to lick them again if he's left to his own devices. The Wound Gard bitterant spray works well for him to keep him away from his feet and the Neocort cream has helped to heal the wounds and the damage that he'd done from licking them.

The reason for mentioning Teddy is for the comparison of two dogs that came from the same environment and have dealt with their issues in different ways. Teddy continually licked his feet as they were already sore, infected and inflamed. His licking kept that cycle going. I've treated his situation the same as I've treated other feet lickers that have come into care here. It's basically a matter of discouraging the licking and treating the wounds and inflammation, then usually just general maintenance and monitoring. It's time consuming but it's certainly do-able and treatable. Daisy is different. Her behaviours are extreme, hard to control and monitor, and definitely in the OCD category. There's also the fact that she'll transfer those behaviours onto another dog that may be nearby. For her, it's the compulsions to act out in this way that over-ride everything else.

Another interesting fact is that poor Teddy needed almost every single rotting tooth removed during a major dental, he just has a few left at the front now. One of the theories is that Daisy's habits may have had something to do with her teeth. If they were as bad as Teddy's, perhaps she was using her own body to sooth the pain from her teeth, in the process rubbing and pulling them so much that because they were already rotten, they dislodged and came out. All speculation of course because we just don't know, but it's an interesting theory. She often uses her whole mouth during her behaviours, so that whatever she's gumming on is pulled the whole length of her mouth, top and bottom. She also has a very overshot jaw (I think it's overshot - the lower jaw is much shorter than the top). You can see it pretty well in the video with Sarge and how she tries to make contact with the whole inside of her mouth.

Anyhoo, as I said it's interesting to compare the behaviours of two dogs that came from the same conditions and environment.