Ocd And Self Harming Behaviours

[yellowgirl]

I have a sweet little Maltese cross girl here who's been in my care since August. Daisy had been badly neglected prior to being rescued, and going by her condition when she arrived, it seems to be something she endured for a very extended period of time. She arrived with some pretty ingrained OCD and self mutilating habits.

She mostly licks and pulls at her feet or flanks. She doesn't have any teeth, thank goodness, or she'd have ripped herself to shreds by now. With her flanks, she mostly sucks and pulls quite violently on them (this behaviour is sometimes displayed by puppies or kittens that have been removed from their mother too early). If she has a Cloud Collar on she will go for her tail, if she can't get to her tail she'll drag her bottom (anal glands are not impacted).

One behaviour that she displays only when she's outside is to lean down on her shoulder, bend her front leg back so the pad is facing upwards and then scratches that with her back foot. Neither myself nor the behaviourists have ever seen a dog do that and it's actually rather distressing to watch. With this particular behaviour she whimpers while doing it.

She's getting better at responding to the 'stop' commands as well as distraction and redirection, which is pretty much all the behaviourists can recommend for her. She's started transferring some of her behaviours onto the Chinese Cresteds, in particular licking, sucking and gumming their skin. She'll also do it to people if there's a bare leg or arm handy.

With products like Wound Gard (antiseptic and bitterant spray) she licks it off after about 10 minutes, with the really heavy duty bitterant spray from the vet, she licks it off after about 10 minutes and then vomits.

We thought we'd found a winner with the Neocort cream, she didn't like the taste of the cream and she went for several hours without any behaviours, then she overrode how horrible the cream tasted and started again. Then she vomited the cream.

We had a good result to start with with the Thundershirt, but that only lasted for a few hours. She couldn't comfortably get to her legs so she dragged her bottom on the concrete and also did the scratching of her front paw with her back leg.

The DAP diffuser has made no difference, DAP spray on cloth collar has made no difference. I'm still using both though. She was on Clomicalm for about 2 weeks with no difference. I may have stopped it too early, but the DAP products arrived and I was desperate to try something else. She's just started on the Clomicalm meds again yesterday and I'll give her at least 4 weeks on them this time. Even though we know it's behaviour based, not allergy or environmental, a little while back the vet suggested trying Prednil, which we did but with no effect. I have a Tryptophan product on standby to try next if the Clomicalm doesn't work.

The videos show three of her behaviours and also her reaction to the 'stop' commands. The stop commands are 'stop', 'uh uh' or 'tsss' with her name said first to get her attention and direct the command to her specifically. She'd had a pretty bad day on the day the videos were taken and had been exhibiting most of her behaviours for the majority of the day, so she looks a bit raggedy and there's some inflammation particularly on her back legs.

Any input or advice would be very much appreciated, particularly if anyone has previously dealt with and/or treated OCD or self mutilation in dogs. I don't know what else to do. The vet and the behaviourists are out of suggestions.

Video 1. Flogging the hell out of her back leg. You can see that she'd been having a go at her flank earlier. Apologies for Raffi barking in the background.. it was dinner time.

Video 2. Having a go at her front legs as well as licking the bed. Also shows her good response to the 'stop' commands.

There's one more video but it wouldn't let me post it with this lot, so it's in the next post.

UPDATE - something happened to Daisy on Friday which may in some way explain her recent increase in behaviours. See post #47.

Edited November 7, 2012 by yellowgirl

[yellowgirl]

Video 3. Transferring her behaviours onto Sarge the Chinese Crested.

[mixeduppup]

She was doing this to a lesser degree when she was in the pound, I thought it was because of the fleas and her coat. Poor baby, I hope you get some helpful answers.

[yellowgirl]

She was doing this to a lesser degree when she was in the pound, I thought it was because of the fleas and her coat. Poor baby, I hope you get some helpful answers.

That's probably because she would have been scared and confused at the pound, which works in some way as a distraction.

[Plan B]

One of my own dogs, rescued about 5 years ago now, is very similar.

He would self harm quite a lot, to the point he would draw blood and rip out chunks of fur, etc. It actually started with his paws, similar to the first video.

We took him to many vets and dermatologists to try and find the reason, spending thousands of dollars, but to no avail. It's been inferred that his problems could very well be psychological and that, even though he's no longer itchy and his skin is no longer inflamed (when he was younger, it was very much so, even with a lot of treatments). The best we can hope for is to just manage his condition, which actually seems like a lot of micro-managing at times.

If I'm gone for long periods of times, he needs a shirt/jacket on so that if he scratches, it doesn't actually scratch his skin, and an elizabethan collar to ensure he doesn't mutilate himself.

Other than that, he's a very happy dog. And after five years, it's all become second nature to us, and he knows he absolutely cannot scratch or bite himself when either of us are home. As an owner, it's horrible to watch, to see a dog that needs to do this to themselves, and I would love to hear any input also.

[Tibbie_tabbie]

Hi Yellow Girl.

When we adopted my then 4 year old JRT x she had many behavioural and psychological issues - one being OCD. She would fixate on shadows more than any dog i've ever seen. She would stare at a shadow with such intensity you could hold steak next to her and she would drool and whimper but not be able to pull herself away. The only thing we could do was to put a barrier in between her and the shadow.

She also licked herself a lot, and her bedding/sofa/basically anything she was near - including windows. She wouldn't hurt herself though, just 'get stuck' in a certain behaviour.

We used a DAP collar (tried the sprays and the bandanna, the plug in version - don't rate them myself), it is a type of plastic you fit to their neck, snugly but not tight, they last a month. It takes a week or two but it took the edge off enough so that we could work with her. We basically got her into a routine (walk, brekkie, sleep, run, dinner....) including exercise, didn't expose her to any stress (people visiting, loud anything etc) and did lots of diversion and redirection training.

It was exhausting as every two mins she'd look at a shadow so one of us would grab the tug toy/some treats and start making some strange noise to get her attention - but it has all paid off. As her socialisation with other dogs, lead training, basic training, bonding all improved so did her OCD. We have been DAP collar free for 8 months now!! :) She will occasionally look at a shadow or start to lick but we just have to say her name now and she stops.

So that was a long way of suggesting the DAP collar! You really are amazing for helping out these bubs who no one else would. If anyone can help her I know it will be you!

(PS - my bubs love their LLR snuggle blankets, they drag them in their beds at night and out during the day :) )

[dancinbcs]

Why are you so sure it isn't allergy related? I have just had an 18 month battle with one of my dogs who reacted to the heartworm injection then a flea plague and simply could not stop itching and chewing after that. He was scratching great hunks of hair out and constantly chewing his feet, if you stopped him he would sometimes lick where he was lying until you looked away, they would chew himself again. Cortisone helped for a while then all his coat started to fall out from that.

After that we tried Chinese Medicine and after 12 months of many Chinese concoctions he is almost back to normal with a huge shiny coat and very little scratching or chewing. I am now at the point of weaning him off the stuff for the itch and using other herbs to normalise his immune system again.

[yellowgirl]

One of my own dogs, rescued about 5 years ago now, is very similar.

He would self harm quite a lot, to the point he would draw blood and rip out chunks of fur, etc. It actually started with his paws, similar to the first video.

We took him to many vets and dermatologists to try and find the reason, spending thousands of dollars, but to no avail. It's been inferred that his problems could very well be psychological and that, even though he's no longer itchy and his skin is no longer inflamed (when he was younger, it was very much so, even with a lot of treatments). The best we can hope for is to just manage his condition, which actually seems like a lot of micro-managing at times.

If I'm gone for long periods of times, he needs a shirt/jacket on so that if he scratches, it doesn't actually scratch his skin, and an elizabethan collar to ensure he doesn't mutilate himself.

Other than that, he's a very happy dog. And after five years, it's all become second nature to us, and he knows he absolutely cannot scratch or bite himself when either of us are home. As an owner, it's horrible to watch, to see a dog that needs to do this to themselves, and I would love to hear any input also.

Thanks so much Plan B. Daisy sounds very similar to your boy, including the psychological theories. I certainly understand about micro-managing, in fact it was very hard for me to keep taping while Daisy was hurting herself, I never let her go that long and always stop her as soon as I see her doing it. With several other dogs in care at the moment, particularly some with special needs, she sometimes gets away with more than she should, but she is getting very responsive to the stop commands, I can even stop her if I'm in another room and hear her doing it now.

Hi Yellow Girl.

When we adopted my then 4 year old JRT x she had many behavioural and psychological issues - one being OCD. She would fixate on shadows more than any dog i've ever seen. She would stare at a shadow with such intensity you could hold steak next to her and she would drool and whimper but not be able to pull herself away. The only thing we could do was to put a barrier in between her and the shadow.

She also licked herself a lot, and her bedding/sofa/basically anything she was near - including windows. She wouldn't hurt herself though, just 'get stuck' in a certain behaviour.

We used a DAP collar (tried the sprays and the bandanna, the plug in version - don't rate them myself), it is a type of plastic you fit to their neck, snugly but not tight, they last a month. It takes a week or two but it took the edge off enough so that we could work with her. We basically got her into a routine (walk, brekkie, sleep, run, dinner....) including exercise, didn't expose her to any stress (people visiting, loud anything etc) and did lots of diversion and redirection training.

It was exhausting as every two mins she'd look at a shadow so one of us would grab the tug toy/some treats and start making some strange noise to get her attention - but it has all paid off. As her socialisation with other dogs, lead training, basic training, bonding all improved so did her OCD. We have been DAP collar free for 8 months now!! :) She will occasionally look at a shadow or start to lick but we just have to say her name now and she stops.

So that was a long way of suggesting the DAP collar! You really are amazing for helping out these bubs who no one else would. If anyone can help her I know it will be you!

(PS - my bubs love their LLR snuggle blankets, they drag them in their beds at night and out during the day :) )

Wow Tibbie Tabbie, you've made amazing progress with your boy - well done! His issues were pretty full-on too. I will order the DAP collar tomorrow, anything and everything is worth trying.

Thank you for your kind words too :)

Why are you so sure it isn't allergy related? I have just had an 18 month battle with one of my dogs who reacted to the heartworm injection then a flea plague and simply could not stop itching and chewing after that. He was scratching great hunks of hair out and constantly chewing his feet, if you stopped him he would sometimes lick where he was lying until you looked away, they would chew himself again. Cortisone helped for a while then all his coat started to fall out from that.

After that we tried Chinese Medicine and after 12 months of many Chinese concoctions he is almost back to normal with a huge shiny coat and very little scratching or chewing. I am now at the point of weaning him off the stuff for the itch and using other herbs to normalise his immune system again.

Hi dancinbcs, Daisy's behaviours indicate psychological as opposed to allergy for quite a few reasons. One is that we tried Prednil which should have had at least some effect if it were allergy based but there was no change at all. Another reason is that she 'transfers' behaviours, either to licking and gumming the bedding or even to another dog. There are a couple of other indicators but I'm a bit tired at the moment and my poor old brain won't let me remember them. Also, I've had lots of allergy dogs in care here and this is different to any other allergy behaviours I've seen - if that makes sense.

Do you have a link to the Chinese Medicines? We've done lots of homeopathic trials and treatments already but I'm willing to keep trying.

[mixeduppup]

i'll email you the question :)

Edited November 3, 2012 by mixeduppup

[yellowgirl]

i'll email you the question :)

No probs MUP. Must be quite a question! :laugh:

[Plan B]

Thanks so much Plan B. Daisy sounds very similar to your boy, including the psychological theories. I certainly understand about micro-managing, in fact it was very hard for me to keep taping while Daisy was hurting herself, I never let her go that long and always stop her as soon as I see her doing it. With several other dogs in care at the moment, particularly some with special needs, she sometimes gets away with more than she should, but she is getting very responsive to the stop commands, I can even stop her if I'm in another room and hear her doing it now.

It really is one of the most heartbreaking things to go through, especially once you've eliminated everything else. It's not something I would wish on anyone but there are absolutely people out there who are willing to take those cases on. My main concern for my dog has always been his quality of life but, like I said before, he's a very happy boy whose only issue is, given the chance, he will hurt himself for no apparent reason. So the only way to fix that, for us, is to ensure he never gets that chance.

We've had varying degrees of success with DAP, thundershirts, herbal remedies, etc. For him, none seemed to really help him improve, but a combination of a few things have helped us keep him safe from himself. To be honest, we're not entirely sure if anything has helped, we just know that he's now much better than he used to be, and it's something we can keep on top of, without his quality of life degrading.

EDIT: I'm probably making this sound worse for you by telling you about my dog! Not every dog will be as 'allergic to life' (as we dubbed him... his name is Scrooge after all) so what didn't work for us may work for you/Daisy.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Plan B

[yellowgirl]

It really is one of the most heartbreaking things to go through, especially once you've eliminated everything else. It's not something I would wish on anyone but there are absolutely people out there who are willing to take those cases on. My main concern for my dog has always been his quality of life but, like I said before, he's a very happy boy whose only issue is, given the chance, he will hurt himself for no apparent reason. So the only way to fix that, for us, is to ensure he never gets that chance.

We've had varying degrees of success with DAP, thundershirts, herbal remedies, etc. For him, none seemed to really help him improve, but a combination of a few things have helped us keep him safe from himself. To be honest, we're not entirely sure if anything has helped, we just know that he's now much better than he used to be, and it's something we can keep on top of, without his quality of life degrading.

EDIT: I'm probably making this sound worse for you by telling you about my dog! Not every dog will be as 'allergic to life' (as we dubbed him... his name is Scrooge after all) so what didn't work for us may work for you/Daisy.

No, it's not making it worse at all Plan B, in fact I'm very pleased to hear that I'm not the only one dealing with something like this and that others have had some degree of success with treatment or management. In fact, there are some really similar parallels between our Daisy and your Scrooge. It's extremely helpful to have this kind of input. Daisy is also a very happy, loving and affectionate girl when she's not hurting herself and if I look back there has definitely been improvement even if it's only that she's responding to the stop commands much quicker. I noticed in the first video that she actually looked at me as if wondering why I wasn't stopping her as I'd never usually let her go that long without intervening.

[Wobbly]

O that's upsetting behaviour, I couldn't even watch the vids, too heartbreaking for me to see. Makes you wonder what the poor little girl has been through for it to have affected her so deeply. Perhaps you could check the training subforum, the behaviourist and knowledgeable people who might be able to help you spend more time reading over there than in this section I think.

I have no advice, stuff like that is way beyond my scope of experience, I just wanted to say good on you for helping her and give you best wishes in finding her some peace of mind to enable her to stop the self harming behaviours.

[Aidan3]

I think you need to see a specialist veterinary behaviourist if you can.

[Kirislin]

I found those videos distressing to watch, that poor little dog and you for having to try to deal with it. I know she hasn't got teeth but what about if you offered her a very meaty knuckly bone or something similarly tasty to suck and lick, would it take her mind off it a bit. I suppose it's just transferring the behaviour, but at least she's not injuring herself. Can she go for walks, would tiring her out help as well?

[persephone]

Poor little dog..

have you tried acupuncture ?

I would also suggest chiro and /or bowen therapy

I have seen chiro help a chronic bed sucker /front leg nibbler ... not cure, but certainly make a big difference :)

[Steve]

I'll try to shorten this a bit and not be too technical.

OCD largely results from a chemical imbalance in the brain.

Specifically, low levels of the neurotransmitter serotonin are linked to the condition, but dopamine and norepinephrine also play a small role.

Serotonin is important for mood regulation, sleep, learning and calmness. It is synthesised from the chemical tryptophan, an amino acid derived from foods containing B vitamins. Medications used to treat OCD in humans, called selective serotonin re uptake inhibitors -- or SSRIs -- aim to raise serotonin levels in the brain and reduce the symptoms. The process of neurotransmitter communications can't happen without the assistance of amino acids, which come from proteins in the foods the dog eats and with the help of vitamin nutrients like B-6. For serotonin to form, the amino acid tryptophan has to be present. Tryptophan is formed from precursor coenzymes found in the B vitamins -- specifically vitamins B-6 and B-12.

But don't go out and buy tryptophan supplements because it won't work on its own and needs other amino acids and vitamins and minerals to assimilate properly and do what you want it to do - metabolise small enough to get to the brain and change the blood levels.

When the amino acids are metabolised into small enough molecules,they are sent to the brain, where they cross the blood-brain barrier and head to their destination for neuron signaling and synthesis into serotonin.

For a variety of reason which I won't expand on due to its history this dog may be more affected by this and its why this type of behaviour is often seen in puppies which have been taken off their Mums too early without the necessary love and stimulation replaced by a human. Replace this with the fact it has no teeth and it is more complicated. Of course sometimes dogs can't produce enough serotonin due to a genetic component and why OCD is more common in some breeds than in others.

I have seen some miracles occur with a simple change in diet and it would be worth a go. A vet named David Urich has some good results,research and stories to tell as well.

What I'm about to suggest won't have any negative side effects so there's nothing to lose if you are prepared to give it a shot.

If this were my dog I would give the dog board certified Aloe Vera Juice because among other things Aloe contains all amino acids which are in small amounts and which can interact with each other. It is an extremely effective intracellular antioxidant and free radical scavenger. Is not digested by the enzyme systems,it is taken up into the cell INTACT as it is absorbed through special receptor sites which exist within the digestive tract. It's 100% non-toxic with no negative side effects. Though if you over dose you see some runny poos. It can be used simultaneously with any medication with NO contra-indications. The dog is probably also not getting enough B vitamins which are easily destroyed by heat and storage I would also give it some baby vitamin drops 4 times a day and vitamin C 4 times per day too.

If it is an allergy there will be no harm done and the Aloe and vitamins should address that as well with Aloe often being used for this purpose anyway.

If you are interested in giving it a go Ill sort out dosages for you if you give me the dog's weight.

Julie

Edited November 3, 2012 by Steve

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I've had a few dogs with difficult OCD type behaviours over the years and haven't always found something that worked all that well, I've just learned to live with it at the time but it is really difficult when they are hurting themselves and/or annoying your other dogs.

PAWS rescued a little girl from Renbury last year in a horrendous state, matted, rotten teeth but very sweet, she was a little poodle cross on the older side.

She was with me for quite a few months. Once she'd recovered from all the initial treatment and become physically well again she started endless licking. She mainly focussed on my sofas and would spend all evening going round and round them, licking all the way, she did occasionally transfer to my legs or the other dogs or beds. It was irritating but otherwise she was very well.

I had a very special couple call about her, I explained all her issues (partially sighted) and the endless licking. They had had very difficult old dogs over the years and thought they would take her on trial. They had leather sofas and for the first couple of weeks she didn't lick anything at all so we thought that was hopefully the end of it, we thought perhaps it was stress related. Unfortunately she started up again but they didn't mind, they thought she was lovely and she was very happy there. After a few months (they were home all day with her), she then began to have the odd fit and after 10 months they lost her to a major fit. The vet said the licking was definitely linked with neuro issues but had not put her on any medication.

For another dog with difficult behaviours due to dementia and previous ill treatment, I had great results with Chinese herbs.

It sounds like you are trying everything you can, she's lucky she's found someone so dedicated.

PAWS recently took another OCD type dog from Renbury (a Malt type) and he was put on meds with good results - I'll find out which one for you.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

oops double post

Edited November 3, 2012 by dogmad

[kayla1]

Poor little girl.

Sorry I don't have any advice, other than what has already been suggested, but I hope you can find some answers.