Cleo's Corgwyn Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 While my club prefers members use flat collars or martingales, we will actually help to fit harnesses for those who need them. Our end goal is still to help with training so they can get back to a flat collar, but we'd rather see a large enthusiastic dog still getting to class and both handler and dog enjoying themselves than be rigid about flat collars as the only acceptable equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Mutt Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 I don't know of any obedience clubs that will let you use a harness on your dog for obedience training. Ours does, In my class alone there are about half a dozen that use them. Halti's are the other thing used. I use a flat but have just bought a sporn since we've had a couple of lunges, I just don't like the idea of her neck taking a whack when she hits the end of the lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuddleDuck Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 How do sporns work on long haired dogs? Do they get tangled in their hair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Mutt Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Can only comment on one long haired dog using a Sporn, My mum's dog is an oodle long hair blahblah. He's fine with it the harness has soft fleece over the straps that go under their front legs and this seems to stop any snags or pulls on his hair. There is a BC at Ob Classes who wears a Sporn without trouble during classes there isn't any stopping to adjust or free up hair iykwim. He arrives with it on and leaves with it on, so his owner doesn't just pop it on for duration of the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-sass Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) I bought the Infin8 halter for Poppy because she has a long, lean neck and smallish head for a Labrador. She associates the Infin8 halter with a positive thing (walking), and she is excited when she sees it, but once we are out walking she just wants it off. I don't enjoy going to my club but the nearest one is over 90 minutes away. I'm looking at having some one-on-one sessions with a private trainer. I got a quote from someone yesterday for $50 an hour. Tell's me if she wants the head collar or what ever the gadget is off, then it's an aversive. Funny I have never seen a dog wanting a prong collar off like they do with head collars I don't know, you would have to ask individual clubs about their equipment policy. I wonder if some clubs have the policy to use stupid equipment that doesn't teach the dog anything of value so people keep coming back and spending money on lessons/memberships whatever? Each club would have its own equipment policy, how strict they are regarding that is up to the individual club, what they will have in common if ANKC affiliated is not allow the use of pinch collars or ecollars. That would be too sensible to fit a dog up with a prong or Ecollar who needs it for the best approach to successful training or rehabilitation hey? Edited November 7, 2012 by m-sass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I bought the Infin8 halter for Poppy because she has a long, lean neck and smallish head for a Labrador. She associates the Infin8 halter with a positive thing (walking), and she is excited when she sees it, but once we are out walking she just wants it off. I don't enjoy going to my club but the nearest one is over 90 minutes away. I'm looking at having some one-on-one sessions with a private trainer. I got a quote from someone yesterday for $50 an hour. Tell's me if she wants the head collar or what ever the gadget is off, then it's an aversive. Funny I have never seen a dog wanting a prong collar off like they do with head collars I don't know, you would have to ask individual clubs about their equipment policy. I wonder if some clubs have the policy to use stupid equipment that doesn't teach the dog anything of value so people keep coming back and spending money on lessons/memberships whatever? Each club would have its own equipment policy, how strict they are regarding that is up to the individual club, what they will have in common if ANKC affiliated is not allow the use of pinch collars or ecollars. That would be too sensible to fit a dog up with a prong or Ecollar who needs it for the best approach to successful training or rehabilitation hey? Now that was one big helpful relevant comment. Not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labradork Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Hi m-sass, what do you mean by "it's an aversive"? I'm not familiar with training lingo in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Hi m-sass, what do you mean by "it's an aversive"? I'm not familiar with training lingo in any way. A negative thing for the dog (ie a punishment, whether you intend it to be or not). I don't like head collars for that very reason. If pulling is a problem I'd train my dog on a flat collar, but while still in training walk my dog with a sensible harness (available with free shipping from cleanrun.com, really these people should give me commission!). m-sass - this thread is about whether using a sporn harness is allowed in class. I don't see what that has to do with prong collars or check chains. All training aids - be they ecollars, haltis, prongs or even a flat collar - are just band aids unless used properly and unless the trainer learns to engage their dog so they aren't walking off as soon as they're not physically attached to their owner. to the OP - good clubs should allow harnesses, especially if dogs train in drive (eg tug) as there is less chance of you accidentally correcting a dog that has a flat collar on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I bought the Infin8 halter for Poppy because she has a long, lean neck and smallish head for a Labrador. She associates the Infin8 halter with a positive thing (walking), and she is excited when she sees it, but once we are out walking she just wants it off. I don't enjoy going to my club but the nearest one is over 90 minutes away. I'm looking at having some one-on-one sessions with a private trainer. I got a quote from someone yesterday for $50 an hour. Tell's me if she wants the head collar or what ever the gadget is off, then it's an aversive. Funny I have never seen a dog wanting a prong collar off like they do with head collars I don't know, you would have to ask individual clubs about their equipment policy. I wonder if some clubs have the policy to use stupid equipment that doesn't teach the dog anything of value so people keep coming back and spending money on lessons/memberships whatever? Each club would have its own equipment policy, how strict they are regarding that is up to the individual club, what they will have in common if ANKC affiliated is not allow the use of pinch collars or ecollars. That would be too sensible to fit a dog up with a prong or Ecollar who needs it for the best approach to successful training or rehabilitation hey? I didn't say I agreed with the policy of no prongs or no ecollars :) Just letting people know what the policy is. If an obedience club allowed harnesses on strong adolescent dogs with no control, personally I would high tail it out of there! I don't need out of control dogs bounding up to mine on harnesses where the owner has no ability to control the dog's head or direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Our club allows and encourages people to use harnesses if that the the tool which the dog and owner are most comfortable with. I really don't see why clubs would have a problem with using a harness, unless it wasn't suitable or ineffective for the dog. Personally I'd rather see a large strong untrained dog on a halter or sporn or front leader harness as I feel it offers better control generally than a flat collar or martingale collar. I don't have a problem with check or prong collars when used properly but I can see why some clubs don't want to associate themselves with these tools these days (not that I necessarily agree). My dog works better on a harness for obedience (just a normal one, not the "corrective" ones like the front attaching or sporn) because she doesn't like the lead buckle flapping around the front of her- its much more tempting for her to try and grab the lead and play with it! Also I feel there is less temptation to use the lead as a tool when the dog is on a harness as you don't really have as much control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labradork Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Hi m-sass, what do you mean by "it's an aversive"? I'm not familiar with training lingo in any way. A negative thing for the dog (ie a punishment, whether you intend it to be or not). I don't like head collars for that very reason. If pulling is a problem I'd train my dog on a flat collar, but while still in training walk my dog with a sensible harness (available with free shipping from cleanrun.com, really these people should give me commission!). m-sass - this thread is about whether using a sporn harness is allowed in class. I don't see what that has to do with prong collars or check chains. All training aids - be they ecollars, haltis, prongs or even a flat collar - are just band aids unless used properly and unless the trainer learns to engage their dog so they aren't walking off as soon as they're not physically attached to their owner. to the OP - good clubs should allow harnesses, especially if dogs train in drive (eg tug) as there is less chance of you accidentally correcting a dog that has a flat collar on. Thanks, megan... I will talk to my trainer wbout this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Our club allows and encourages people to use harnesses if that the the tool which the dog and owner are most comfortable with. I really don't see why clubs would have a problem with using a harness, unless it wasn't suitable or ineffective for the dog. Personally I'd rather see a large strong untrained dog on a halter or sporn or front leader harness as I feel it offers better control generally than a flat collar or martingale collar. I don't have a problem with check or prong collars when used properly but I can see why some clubs don't want to associate themselves with these tools these days (not that I necessarily agree). My dog works better on a harness for obedience (just a normal one, not the "corrective" ones like the front attaching or sporn) because she doesn't like the lead buckle flapping around the front of her- its much more tempting for her to try and grab the lead and play with it! Also I feel there is less temptation to use the lead as a tool when the dog is on a harness as you don't really have as much control. The bolded bit is what has me worried about harnesses. With beginner dogs and owners with boisterous, out of control dogs that lunge at people and dogs passing by (quite common), you can't really control what the dog is doing on a harness as you are attached to their chest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labradork Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) Our club allows and encourages people to use harnesses if that the the tool which the dog and owner are most comfortable with. I really don't see why clubs would have a problem with using a harness, unless it wasn't suitable or ineffective for the dog. Personally I'd rather see a large strong untrained dog on a halter or sporn or front leader harness as I feel it offers better control generally than a flat collar or martingale collar. I don't have a problem with check or prong collars when used properly but I can see why some clubs don't want to associate themselves with these tools these days (not that I necessarily agree). My dog works better on a harness for obedience (just a normal one, not the "corrective" ones like the front attaching or sporn) because she doesn't like the lead buckle flapping around the front of her- its much more tempting for her to try and grab the lead and play with it! Also I feel there is less temptation to use the lead as a tool when the dog is on a harness as you don't really have as much control. I agree. The Sporn seems to work better for us because Poppy seems more comfortable wearing it, and I'm more conscious of having to use my voice to control her (and she is more receptive to me). ETA Sorry Kavik - I didn't see your post. This wasn't directed at you. Edited November 23, 2012 by Labradork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Hi m-sass, what do you mean by "it's an aversive"? I'm not familiar with training lingo in any way. An aversive stimulus is one which an animal will work to avoid or escape (but may learn not to). Basically, it's something unpleasant. M-sass' comment tries to justify the use of one piece of aversive equipment by making an apples to oranges comparison with another. I never saw a dog delight in receiving a prong collar correction, either. Nor would I use a head halter on a dog who couldn't be quickly conditioned to wearing a head halter comfortably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 (edited) I use a sporn harness on Chess and it works great :) I honestly don't think she's been on a leash for about 6 weeks so obviously loose-leash walking training isn't a priority :p But when we do use it, it does what it says on the box and gets us from A to B with much less pulling than a flat collar. I'm sure in the past I've taken her to classes with it on and haven't had comment, but they were small classes with ppl I knew fairly well :) Edited November 8, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-sass Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 (edited) Hi m-sass, what do you mean by "it's an aversive"? I'm not familiar with training lingo in any way. If the dog is trying to get the harness off, it's causing discomfort. An "aversive" is an uncomfortable or painful application. The bolded bit is what has me worried about harnesses. With beginner dogs and owners with boisterous, out of control dogs that lunge at people and dogs passing by (quite common), you can't really control what the dog is doing on a harness as you are attached to their chest. You know what I think Kavik....if a dog does work well on a harness given the fact that a harness doesn't provide any corrective control, the same dog would work "super" on a flat collar if it was being trained properly?? Edited November 8, 2012 by m-sass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-sass Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Hi m-sass, what do you mean by "it's an aversive"? I'm not familiar with training lingo in any way. An aversive stimulus is one which an animal will work to avoid or escape (but may learn not to). Basically, it's something unpleasant. M-sass' comment tries to justify the use of one piece of aversive equipment by making an apples to oranges comparison with another. I never saw a dog delight in receiving a prong collar correction, either. Nor would I use a head halter on a dog who couldn't be quickly conditioned to wearing a head halter comfortably. The dog with the halter was suffering a constant avervise simply by wearing it. Have you seen a dog suffer a constant aversive simply by wearing a prong collar Adian? I certainly haven't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 You know what I think Kavik....if a dog does work well on a harness given the fact that a harness doesn't provide any corrective control, the same dog would work "super" on a flat collar if it was being trained properly?? Probably yes, but the harness may be easier for some handlers, especially inexperienced ones like myself. My dog actually works best off lead, I get all uncoordinated with the lead in my hand and then tend to rely on it rather than my voice or body to guide the dog Unfortunately we train in a non leash free area. Surely its about using what tool is best for both the handler and dog combined? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 The dog with the halter was suffering a constant avervise simply by wearing it. Have you seen a dog suffer a constant aversive simply by wearing a prong collar Adian? I certainly haven't. No, but I've seen dogs who suffer a constant threat of aversive or a constant fear of an unpredictable correction from a prong collar in inexperienced or incompetent hands. By the same token, I've never made a dog walk in a head halter that was a "constant aversive". Head halters, properly, should be response prevention - much the same as a harness or flat collar, but with leverage. If a dog is not comfortable wearing a head halter, they shouldn't be wearing it. When I condition a dog to wear a head halter (a rare event), they do everything but buckle the clip themselves. Given that there is no threat of correction for not willingly putting their nose in the loop and willingly holding still while I buckle the clip, I'd have to put faith in the evidence that the head halter was not a constant aversive for these dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 You know what I think Kavik....if a dog does work well on a harness given the fact that a harness doesn't provide any corrective control, the same dog would work "super" on a flat collar if it was being trained properly?? Probably yes, but the harness may be easier for some handlers, especially inexperienced ones like myself. A harness does a brilliant job of getting the leash out of the way completely. My old girl usually wore a harness because she was usually dragging a long line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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